[Closed] Accupuncture

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if you try it and it makes you feel better than you did before, does it matter if it works by science, a placebo or magic pixies? the end result is still the same. I could only see an issue of acupuncture practitioners start making claims that it can cure cancer, heart disease etc... where use of an "alternative" in place of conventional medicines may actually cause harm

Acupuncture is for me like 29ers - an uncomfortable truth!

I am a logical, scientific minded, well educated and reasonable intelligent individual. Everything tells me that acupuncture should be right up there with homeopathy.

But I have had acupuncture and yes it did work for me. I had an injury in my knee from martial arts training, basically a bad strain on the ACL that made kicking too painful. I had worked around it and carried the injury for about four months. Two sessions of acupuncture and the knee was fine, the pain was gone and I had no recurrent issues with it.

Could be coincidence, could be psychosomatic, but it seemed to work.

It definitely did something to me. Whether it helped is another matter.

My nerves are shot after having Guillain Barre Syndrome, I can't feel my fingers or my feet properly, as well as having various other symptoms. I had some physio last year which progressed to acupuncture. The physio inserted six needles and all was fine until he twisted one, It triggere a burning sensation all over my skin. Now I do get this at times anyhow after being ill, but the acupuncture definitely brought it on rapidly.

What GT1972 said. Sorted out an elbow/forearm problem for me.

My missus had a course and it appeared to help her stress levels and hormonal issues following baby nr 2 but it was also in conjunction with a detox diet so couldnt swear which one worked but the two combined definitely worked

Same as others up there - highly sceptical but did good things for some of my joints (AS sufferer).

It's quackery, pure and simple.

Every time it is tried in a blinded trial it turns out that it doesn't matter who you put the needles or even if you use toothpicks rather than needles the result is the same. Have a look at "bad science" or "science based medicine" for some far more intelligent critiques of the practice.

I've had it once or twice, seemed to work, but the second time, on a swollen knee, they also massaged it, so that might have had some effect too. They also tried cupping, but my knees are too knobbly and hairy for the cups to stay on, and that's b******s anyway.

Also had herbal treatment for a nasty abcess in a place I'd rather not mention, but it badly affected my cycling. It vanished in under a week, but 'herbal' didn't mean a few drops of lavender water and evening primrose oil - we are talking about drinking a pint of boiled up shrubbery and toadstools that was the colour of the Thames and tasted like diesel. Then take the rest, boil up some more stuff that's not safe to drink and sit with affected parts in it [once its cooled down]

SG goes regularly for fairly major back and hip problems and it works for her, but she swims as well. Regular treatment can rack the costs up, some places charge a lot more than others and try to sell you other stuff as well, we've found a reasonable local one now.

So to answer the original question - seem to work but nothing conclusive. General view from both camps seems to be that Chinese medicine is good for keeping you in good general shape, but Western is better for the serious acute stuff like cancer.

So to answer the original question - seem to work but nothing conclusive. General view from both camps seems to be that Chinese medicine is good for keeping you in good general shape, but Western is better for the serious acute stuff like cancer.

The general view from both camps is no such thing. There are only two types of medics, stuff that has been proven to work and everything else. When tested acupuncture simply does not work. There is no way that any pharmaceutical company could market a drug with the lack of proof that acupuncture ( or indeed all other types of alternative medicine) has.

way that any pharmaceutical company could market a drug with the lack of proof that acupuncture ( or indeed all other types of alternative medicine) has.

"Old" does not equal valid. Homeopathy is old.

"Thalidamide" was a mistake; the fact that medicine got something wrong does not add credence to any old hogwash you happen to make up. That's how things like chiropractic and other vitalistic treatments gained a foothold; it was preferable to the blood-telling, trepanning and leeches prevalent at the time in so far as ineffective practices tend not to kill people. Long-term effects for thalidomide were badly researched; if anything, it highlights the need for evidence-based medicine.

There's no such thing as "alternative medicine". There's "medicine" and "everything else." If it's not medicine then it's a nice bowl of soup and a charming bedside manner.

Next.

time for this again I think.

There are only two types of medics, stuff that has been proven to work and everything else.

There are only two types of medics, stuff that has [s]been proven to work[/s] [i]a substantial body of evidence to demonstrate its efficacy[/i] and everything else.

FIFY - science and non-science; the difference between truths existing in the absence of falsifying evidence and everything else.

+1 Geetee

I am a vet, science is in my blood and I am of the opinion that I need to see something work for myself, or have a sound reasoning behind it, for me to believe.

Having said that, I hurt my back last year, physio didn't really do much, so the guy did a session of acupuncture. Well, I went from a non-believer to believing it had an effect almost instantly. Got up off the table and felt relief. True, it lasted only 2 days but that's longer than proper physio have me relief for.

I've also seen it performed in animals for arthritis - again for some reason they did seen improved for a short period. Now they can't be a placebo!

The science behind it, not sure. But I'm no longer a staunch sceptic on this form of alternative medicine

I used acupuncture as part of recovery from a torn vertebral disc (generally as a precursor to manipulation by an osteopath). I believe it helped.

any old hogwash you happen to make up

Absolutely right Geetee, thanks for the correction.

I've also seen it performed in animals for arthritis - again for some reason they did seen improved for a short period. Now they can't be a placebo!

Why not? you can't ask them if they feel any different you have to do it based on your observation so how do you account for observer bias? Also in my (very limited in comparison to you) experience if you show an animal some attention they generally respond positively. [url= http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/is-there-a-placebo-effect-for-animals/ ]Placebo in animals.[/url]

Plenty of people believe a lot of things, it doesn't make it true. I've had acupuncture in the past and it didn't help. My anecdote is however of no more worth than yours, only properly controlled trials are of any real use and none of these show any benefit beyond that of a placebo

Is there any data that shows any degree of variance in results that must be attributed to placebo effect or are placebo effects always consistent in their rate of efficacy?

There has actually been some research into the Placebo effect and it isn't constant. Double the dose of a placebo will give a better repines. Different colour pills give different results. Injections and pills give different results too, I think.

[url= http://www.badscience.net/category/placebo/ ]Ben Goldacre's take on things. It's bound to be a bit ranty but it is a subject that he is clearly fascinated by.[/url]

Fascinating (the variance in placebo effect). I'm guessing the variance is all outside of the margin of error?

It's almost comedic - some placebos are more efficacious than others!

spchantler - Member

seriously, this is an ancient system of medicine, why are we discounting it

detox diets, cupping, osteopaths and accupuncture you guys are well funny, though i suppose if you happy to give your hard earned to some nutter and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy then crack on

So what about hypnotherapy?

Why does osteopathy get such a bad time? The ones I've met have had to study as hard as and are as well qualified in physiology as physiotherapists.

Whiplash injury on an already whiplashed neck .
Car crash a few years after a heavy mtb crash , using my face stop.
Had accupuncture twice by a chinese doctor.
Instant , noticable relief. Less pain and alot more movement.
Still clicks like a Rubik's cube though

I could study fairies and the folklore around them for years, it wouldn't make them any more real. Some of the heat transfer I studied at Uni has now been proven to be wrong. Just because you work and study hard doesn't mean that what you are studying is any more true because of it.

more anecdotal evidence here - worked twice for me on separate injuries. Both times performed by proper physios. Both times relief instant and long lasting.

singletrackmind - Member
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Had accupuncture twice by a chinese [s]doctor[/s]man (ftfy).

Both times performed by proper physios.

Were you also receiving physiotherapy at the time?

is this in the literal sense? as in me making it up?

Unless you're claiming to have invented some form of alternate therapy, no. Sorry, my bad, I should've realised I needed to be clearer from the lack of common sense displayed in your earlier post.

having used acupuncture, i speak from experience,

Did you have acupuncture as part of a double-blind test? If not, you are biased, and therefore your anecdotal experience is nullified.

i'll pay for you to visit mine, perhaps we can sort you an injury as well, in the interest of science....

Deal. No need for the intentional maiming, helpfully I have a bad shoulder already. I'd be happy to have pins stuck in me in the interests of science on someone else's nickel. I'm prepared to travel a modest distance from East Lancashire or London, anywhere else will incur additional travelling expenses.

and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy then crack on

cougar, mines in sowerby bridge, i'll happily pay for you to have some, not so far from east lancs, message me and we'll do it, bring yer bike as well 😉

Yeah, why not.

Evenings would be better, though during the day might be doable. I have reason to be in Wakefield sometimes so could combine the two.

I've got a first physio appointment on Monday so I'd rather avoid the start of the week so as not to confuse the results. Email in profile.

Cards on the table, I have an open mind about acupuncture. I don't believe in the theory for a second, but I can see how the procedure may be effective for as yet undiscovered reasons. I'm sceptical, for reasons as others have detailed above, but I'm prepared to try it.

See now I'm even more confused. I'm more of a sceptical person so I'm kinda in the just stick to what's proven camp but I'm really intrigued to see if it will help where other stuff hasn't

Were you also receiving physiotherapy at the time?

Yep. So, no, I don't know what did what. Well, I think I do, but I can't be sure. Hence why I said anecdotal.

I had acupuncture in my neck and back, it was done with electric running thru the pins to help deaden the nerves,and ease the pain. I found it works for me

sphincter - Member
try reading people's posts before you comment

i did, its still a load of cobblers though innit.

I've recently had acupuncture for my shoulder following an op, it was performed by my physio who's been doing a sterling job of getting me back on the bike.

It was weird - needles in my shoulder then pain in my ear on the same side!

Years ago I had acupuncture to help me stop smoking. It didn't work. Willpower did.

Go figure. 😕

Oh yes, in the past I've been treated by a chiropractor. He found the cause of my pain, unlike other medical professionals.

[i]I hurt my back last year, physio didn't really do much, so the guy did a session of acupuncture. Well, I went from a non-believer to believing it had an effect almost instantly. Got up off the table and felt relief. True, it lasted only 2 days but that's longer than proper physio have me relief for.[/i]

This for me too. Injured shoulder few years back, nothing worked, acupuncture was instant pain relief lasting a few days.
Only an operation to clear out the bone chips actually fixed the shoulder.

Emma - friend of my wife does it for a living so if you want to see some kind of documentation as to how/ why it works I can ask for you. The friend's brother treats celebs and vips in Harley Street, but we all know they're mugs 😉 Anyway, email in profile if you want some info.

A friend's mum is an acupuncturist. We stayed at hers and I was intrigued to see if it could help a knee problem. I don't have the 'energy lines' that are required for it be successful... make of that what you will.

You're just a cynic Yeti. 😉

And you don't 'get' animals. 😐

I'm a very skeptical person, atheist, strict science devotee, but I am open minded about accupuncture, because, firstly I've had it and it worked for me, and secondly despite their being no evidence that it works yet, there is a pretty good theory of how it might work, that just needs proper research to test it.

It's not really comparable with homeopathy as the claims and "theory" as to how it works are akin to magic and not science.

Give it a try, it's very relaxing at least..

My Dad had a couple of strokes in the '80s that left his right arm/hand very stiff.
He was given loads of stuff to do by the physio, but it was also suggested that he tried acupuncture. Now, my Dad is as cynical as they come, but he went fairly often & it really did help with relaxing the muscles down his right hand side & making him a lot more mobile.

I've had it once, and although it didn't 'cure' the problem (turns out I have arthritis in my knees) it was a very odd sensation as my muscles started twitching around the needles, and tingly feeling all down my arm (the needles were in my leg!) followed by me talking utter bollocks at work later in the day with no recollection. Almost like being drunk.
My physio sister in law swears it works on a lot of her patients, and lots ask for and pay for a repeat session.

it was done with electric running thru the pins to help deaden the nerves,and ease the pain. I found it works for me

So that would be Electro[s]convulsive[/s] Therapy then?

firstly I've had it and it worked for me,

Confirmation bias

and secondly despite their being no evidence that it works yet, there is a pretty good theory of how it might work,

So you admit that there is no evidence but that there is a good theory of how it might work? Tell me what this theory is 'coz I've yet to hear a scientifically or medically valid one. The only thing that I know of that gets trotted out is some stuff about "energy lines". The thing is, if there is one thing that we as humans are quite good at (apart from deluding ourselves) it is in detecting energy. No one has every found any evidence of these lines.

that just needs proper research to test it.

There has been research, good research and and all of it points to acupuncture being useless. Oh and as for the whole "it's ancient chinese medicine so there must be something in it", have a look at the mortality rates in China and see what happened when they adopted science based medicine.

It's not really comparable with homeopathy as the claims and "theory" as to how it works are akin to magic and not science.

So, exactly comparable to homeopathy then. Unless you think an imbalance of chi is a scientific principle, in which case I'm selling a bridge if you're interested?

despite their being no evidence that it works yet, there is a pretty good theory of how it might work,

Have you been talking to Chris Morris lately?

Well cards on the table - I'm a vet and I done some training in acupuncture and use it occasionally in animals. I too am very sceptical of most "alternative medicines" but had seen some people and animals who had reputedly benefited from it so thought I'd look at it a little more.
There is some pretty solid science behind some of the basics involved. They've done studies in rabbits where the insertion of acupuncture needles leads to measurably more endorphins in the cerebro-spinal fluid. This response works under general aesthetic, but not if the area needled is numbed by local anaesthetic or the nerves are cut. Nerve transmission is an important part of the response. They have measured which type of nerve fibre is stimulated by inserting acupuncture needles, and its largely fast pain fibres. Imagine you'd just put your finger in a flame. The fast pain fibres are the ones that transmit the message to the brain "get your finger out of there - its going to hurt" the slow pain fibres are the ones that transmit the message that you've burnt your finger. So that's perhaps why people (myself included) report that strange feeling when acupuncture needles are inserted that they think its going to hurt then it doesn't. Acupuncture needling stimulates these fibres in muscles and connective tissue where they are never otherwise stimulated unless there is a major accident - like a broken leg - where a major rush of endorphins is part of the body's normal response to the insult.
In chronic pain acupuncture is thought to work by closing some of the open pain pathways to the brain that are kept open by the "pain windup" system.
And some of the large and meta studies which discredit acupuncture are fairly flawed themselves. There was a huge study in Germany in people with oesteo-arthritis where the control was still to use acupuncture needles, but not in traditional Chinese acupuncture points. Acupuncture needles are likely to work in all connective tissue and muscle, so needling a couple of centimetres away from the traditional points would still get a response. And indeed there was no significant difference between these two groups. However both acupuncture groups showed twice the level of relief of those only treated with conventional drugs. Yet because there was no difference between the two needled groups, it was deemed that acupuncture didn't work.
There's much about acupuncture that isn't understood, it won't work for everyone or every condition, but there is some solid science behind it. It deserves more scientific exploration, but that's limited by its connections with the "traditional Chinese" approach, which make claims way far and beyond what is reasonable.

Colin

So basically, you're saying that sticking pins in someone (/thing) can be beneficial, but traditional "acupuncture" is no better or worse than making it up randomly.

IIRC, that's pretty much what the large-scale GERAC trails found.

Cougar
I really have nothing other than a negative view of traditional Chinese acupuncture. It only serves to muddle what people think about a modern western scientific approach. It has given us the acupuncture points, which are probably areas in people which, if needled, will give a good response, but that doesn't help me with animals. All I ask is that you don't tar all acupuncture with the same brush - where there is evidence that it can work and how it works, give that a reasoned hearing on its own merit. And realise there are some very well connected areas of pharma based medicine which have a considerable vested interest in showing why this shouldn't/doesn't/mustn't work.

Colin

Hence my comments about GERAC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Acupuncture_Trials

Actually, talking of Wikipedia, their comments on efficacy are interesting reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture#Effectiveness

Particularly, the difficulty in placebo control tests, which is something you touched on.

A 2009 review concluded that the specific points chosen to needle does not matter, and no difference was found between needling according to "true" points chosen by traditional acupuncture theory and "sham" acupuncture points unrelated to any theory.

Worked for my tennis elbow where other treatments didn't... It was strangely relaxing and the effects seemed immediate.

It's 3am and I can't sleep so I thought I would give you the benefit of my experience...

Please bear with me - I've told this tale before. Many years ago, I slept badly on my right arm. I awoke to a sensation close to severe pins and needles. The whole of my right arm was numb and slightly tingly.

I went about my normal morning routine, occasionally pinching my fingers and bicep, waiting for the numbness to dissipate. It didn't - it stayed the same, and after a few hours I realised that this wasn't normal.

To cut a long story short, I spent hours at various NHS practitioners, lost my job (driver) and was diagnosed as having a radial nerve palsy with irrevocable nerve damage. In short, the doctors told me I'd never have my right arm back. Western medicine had given up on me. Nerves don't grow back, they told me.

So I strapped it up, used my road bike and learnt to roll cigarettes against a wall with my left hand but my life as it had been was over, and staying positive wasn't easy.

My dad (almost estranged) got wind of what had happened and told his ex-wife, a traditional Chinese medicine doctor. She was a hard-nosed business woman who had built a business based purely on force of will, complemented with training in the Red Army.

She demanded that I attend her clinic in Edinburgh and I obeyed. I was stuck full of needles, given deep tissue massage by various minions and fed vile potions. It was made clear that THIS WAS NO QUICK FIX. I would have to suffer for a good few weeks and despite knowing that it was all humbug and hogwash, I started to feel a tingle in my fingertips.

A few weeks, and many hundreds of needles later, I was able to curl my fingers into a fist, and within a month my wasted right arm was back to normal. Seven years ago, I used it to unintentionally break a body-builder's humerus whilst arm-wrestling (I'm not proud) (well maybe a little bit - I'm a skinny lightweight).

Was I converted? Yes, actually. I spent a Summer working in the clinic, and the next Summer setting up a new clinic in Inverness.

Sorry for the essay - if you do go down the TCM route, give it time. Give it money. It might work.

My Dad has neuralgia of the tongue and the Dr's have tried all sorts of things to easy the pain, right up to heroin none of it really worked, as a last resort he tried accupuncture and swears by it.
My son has recently broken his arm really badly and the accupunturist (who has been a GP & a surgeon in UK) thinks they can do a lot for his recovery, we'll give it a try and see how it goes, whats to lose?

I think user-removed's post is going to give the STW-science-big-hitters posse something to be going on with today.

Acupuncture = woo.
The plural of anecdote is not data.

I think user-removed's post is going to give the STW-science-big-hitters posse something to be going on with today.

Why would user-removed's anecdote of any more worth than any other? Why would the usual explinations of placebo, regression to the mean, confimration bias not be applicable here too?

I don't have much belief for the traditional acupuncture and ideas behind it but I have had help from acupuncture done in physiotherapy.

Reasoning for using the needles weas that allowed manipulation of hard to reach muscle areas (inner part of glutes) and it really helped to relax the muscles which couldn't be accessed manually. I used to go to this physio/sports massage for several years about every two-three months and the use of needles was required only once.

I think user-removed's post is going to give the STW-science-big-hitters posse something to be going on with today.

Misdiagnosed by the doctors, whatever was wrong with his arm recovered naturally. To wit, it might well have got better anyway. There's no control group so who knows.

The acupuncture might have cured it, of course. Point I'm making is, it's not exactly problematic to assign other explanations to it.

whats to lose?

Your inheritance?

Reasoning for using the needles weas that allowed manipulation of hard to reach muscle areas (inner part of glutes) and it really helped to relax the muscles which couldn't be accessed manually

Bloody hell, how deep were they inserting the needles to get into your muscles!

And they're off...

whats to lose?

Your inheritance?

You have a point there 🙂
Still Dad is a sceptic generally, he swears by accupuncture so if it makes him suffer less I can live with it. If it helps my son too then I am a convert

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Good book worth a read, make up your own mind.

I've been meaning to get that for a while. Worth a punt if it's half as good as Bad Science.

Bloody hell, how deep were they inserting the needles to get into your muscles!