[Closed] Access issue east lothian

They are always a pain in the arse at that golf course

Probably within the letter of the access code, a long way from the spirit / intended purpose of the access code legislation*, and certainly failing rule 1.

*Something that frustrates me about the legislation being that it was really created so as not to lose public access to the vast swathes of empty Highlands being bought up by billionaires, not so that people could act like dicks in built up areas of Southern Scotland with already good access options.

You can cycle right across the fairway as long as you don’t interrupt play.

Question is, would you?

lucky - nope - it was intended to cover the lowlands as well. Remember it actually reduced our access rights by making it a qualified right. It used to be absolute under common law ( on foot not for bikes)

Its not a built up area. I am following the coast which is an absolute right in Scotland. the only way into the town is to cross the golf course which I did on their track which means not crossing any fairways.

They are attempting to make it impossible to get from North Berwick to yellowcraigs along the coast.

Edit for Brads
using the track means not crossing any fairways. Further west along the coast the route crosses a golf course. Never any incidents there. You just wait for people to play before crossing

and certainly failing rule 1.

I caused no damage. Caused no interference to anyones game of golf. No inconvenience to anyone so how do you figure its a breach of rule 1?

I had a think and I know the route you are on about
You’re right of course , no reason to interfere with any play so I can only assume they are pushing their luck.
East Lothian is rife with this just now. Estates banning parking at various sites , putting up full perimeter fencing around woodland and using machines to destroy tracks . It’s happening all over round here

First time I have come across this in east lothian ( apart from archerfeild of course). Maybe I have just been lucky

I had the same a while back at the West end of North Berwick golf course the posher one, walking pushing the bike but on the boundary next to the sea. They like to drive over the boundary so just make them wait , let them whistle and gesticulate then walk slower
East Lothian and North East Fife full of golf courses

Thats the one I was on. walking or cycling along the high tide line is an absolute right IIRC. Predating the LRA
Most with no access issues - even muirfeild IIRC

I very much doubt the council would give that advice.

The "council" didn't. An individual who works for the council did. And may well be completely outwith thier remit and/or not properly informed on access issues.

I agree it's spirit of legislation here.

FWIW, 15 years ago I watched a council employee rugby tackle a fellow instructor as he watched a line of kids on mountain bikes ride past on what was a footpath. What the assaulting countryside ranger had omitted to do was talk to us - where he would have discovered we too worked for Rotherham council, and had written permission from Rotherham council to use thier own woods for group MTB rides with Rotherham schools.

He just exceeded his pay grade...

Hopes and Gosford estates both trying to restrict access by making places inaccessible.

Probably within the letter of the access code, a long way from the spirit / intended purpose of the access code legislation*, and certainly failing rule 1.

*Something that frustrates me about the legislation being that it was really created so as not to lose public access to the vast swathes of empty Highlands being bought up by billionaires, not so that people could act like dicks in built up areas of Southern Scotland with already good access options.

Sounds like TJ was being polite and reasonable so no rule 1 infringement and the access legislation is for the whole of Scotland. Go do some reading and come back when you've got something sensible to add.

Go do some reading and come back when you’ve got something sensible to add.

LOL. You were more polite than I was going to be had I responded ☺️

LOL. You were more polite than I was going to be had I responded

It took a bit of effort but I managed. 🙂

From part 2 of the Scottish Outdoor Access Code

A summary of your access rights

5. The main places where access rights do not apply are:
.....golf courses (but you can cross a golf course provided you don’t interfere with any games of golf);
......

From my conversation with a Fife Council access officer a few years ago about a minor issue on a core path next to a golf course "you can cycle on a golf course provided you stick to the tracks and don't cycle on the greens or fairways"

As far as I can see you are correct.

Ta folks - I thought I was but wanted to check. Im gonna kick up a stink.

Gosford is actually right to refuse cycling as they work on a permit , I bought one Its £15 a year which is a bargain. I have cycled through there a few times but would avoid it now to be honest even though you can cut through the back road in Aberlady to the middle of Gosford.
I usually cycle sensibly over a few of the bigger East lothian courses. One of the best trails actually starts beside the little 10th hole bar at Archerfield (just along from the spitfire propellar). Also the little balls out descent through luffness goes past the greenkeepers hut down to the reserve.

the Access Code has a specific section of golf courses:

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/practical-guide-all/golf-courses

I see nothing there you were incompatible with.

even with a permit gosford will be on dodgy ground - its a bit difficult to see what is curtilege in that estate tho as they sold off a lot of the estate housing - I cycled past somones front door once!

they guy was very careful to say he was not saying we could not ( perhaps because i told him I would be contacting the council as they cannot give advice to him to act outside the access laws) just that he strongly advised it. Still attempting to stop people tho. I did tell him he and the supposed council person were wrong and I would be continuing to use this route

I will report back if / when i get anything from the council

There was a recent issue near me at the edge of the KIlpatrick Hills where the occupier of a house was telling walkers they had no right to walk past his house. Private road which appears to be owned by the local estate, not him. Discussed on Walk Highlands. The householder then popped up on the forum complaining about it.

https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103833

that makes fun reading.

There is some properly odd first posts on there, all diving in to defend, but with common themes....

You can't argue with stupid.

It's East Lothian, I'd go for it as undoubtedly they are wrong

TJ are you able to describe the particular path it was? I cannot place it based on the above - was it across the fairway or alongside it..?

I live in NB and often walk - don’t cycle so much - on the paths across and alongside the golf course. Don’t think I have ever had someone suggest I go elsewhere - as you say seems unusual.

Its the tarmac track thru the west links I think. It weaves between the fairways so if you are on it I don't think you cross a single one. coming from yellowcraigs continue along the coast. You see a high tee on the dunes, the track starts shortly after.

it was the obvious route for the john muir way but the golfers obviously stopped it. John Muir way at that point is shit and takes you onto roads

around the arrow on this. http://streetmap.co.uk/map?X=353250&Y=685400&A=Y&Z=120

Cheers - I know the bit. Very surprised someone would ask you to not use that path. Generally my feeling has been the the golf course and walkers / cycles co-exist pretty reasonably, but I do sense there is a bit more tension since the first lockdown.

And PS - yes that’s on the West Links, which basically comes all the way into town.

No tension with the golfers at all but its clear the management want folk to stop using it.
he was in his buggy in a logoed shirt stopping everyone using that path. clearly policy from the club

think I'll go along that way just to see if anyone says something!

This is the reply I got from the access officer. i am really angry at it

"Thank you for your e-mail regarding cycling on North Berwick West Links.

I am aware that the golf club has seen an enormous increase in people walking and cycling on the course during lockdown, which is a big concern to the club in case of an injury to a member of the public. There are three routes that cross the course from North Berwick to the coast, which the club signpost and promote. We also worked with the course several years ago to develop the John Muir Way in order to try to create a safe east/west route for the public when the tide is in and it is not possible to walk along the beach. I know that the club have major concerns about people walking and cycling along the maintenance track, particularly those who cycle at speed, as there are areas where they are in a position where they could be hit by stray shots.

I have met with the club and advised them on signage and ways to encourage people to use the recognised routes across the course. In the past the signs were not that clear and I witnessed people looking for the John Muir Way, or route to the beach who had inadvertently followed the maintenance track.

I would question whether using the maintenance track is actually permitted under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003. It clearly goes through the curtilage of the green keepers sheds. The track also ends at a green towards the west of the course. So, in effect, no further for cyclists to go who, it is advised in the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, should keep to paths at all times and not go on to any other part of a golf course.

With kind regards.

Nick Morgan"

I have asked for the name of the person to escalate it to as he is clearly wrong on access to golf courses. A shed cannot have curtilige for starters and we have the right to cross golf courses

I have asked for the name of the person to escalate it to as he is clearly wrong on access to golf courses. A shed cannot have curtilige for starters and we have the right to cross golf courses

Keep going,

East Lothian local access forum have a different view to you though

https://m.facebook.com/1393185384320597/photos/a.1394616440844158/2543731689265955/?type=3

I'm glad I'm not Nick Morgan

Ta for that big and daft

shows what we are dealing with. to try to bullshit me with incorrect info about what the LRA states about golf courses is really stupid

trouble is a lot of this needs to be tested in court to give definitive answers.

It's snobbery, nothing more, nothing less. I bike and run regularly through old Prestwick and Royal Troon, two of the most historically significant, exclusive courses in the country, never had an issue. Path crosses quite a few fairways, generally always get waved over, as the rich old duffers don't want an audience for their impending duck hook! 🤣

I loved the thing about the john muir way as well. the route is complete crap at that point - obviously done to avoid the golf course because the course would not give permission for signage

East Lothian is small minded NIMBY central.

I'd expect a fight as the interpretation will be deliberately done to suit those with vested interests.

You up for organising a Mac-Pootle TJ? We could have a jolly time crossing on all of the tracks en-masse.

It might come to that. We would need to be very careful tho.

I am going to see what reaction I get. I emailed the access officer back quoting the law and the code at him including the bit about what his responsibilities are - which is NOT to agree to restrictions because landowners do not want access. I also asked him who to escalate this to

I have also emailed scotways for an opinion

Shock doctrine innit, how lockdown is used to attempt to restrict access and keep out the Macriffraff. Same thing was tried on after the foot and mouth debacle.

Does a wee red light not pop out the top of the computer and a klaxon go off every time you email any central belt council office Teej?

Probably does on theirs. Not on mine. I may have to invest in a green pen to send really snotty letters

Well the access officer in response to my email has given me the email of his line manager as i said I wanted to escalate this

I need to make very sure of my ground but I am not letting this drop

I may have to invest in a green pen to send really snotty letters

A man needs a hobby!

You up for organising a Mac-Pootle TJ? We could have a jolly time crossing on all of the tracks en-masse.

I'll come and I will introduce my 4 and 5 year old nephews to positive action.

I'll instruct to keep asking why if someone tries to stop us.