[Closed] A new Tesla for £25k? Sounds good.

Ok, you have to factor in a lifestyle change to remember to plug it in every night, or every other night. But you'd be in panic mode if you'd decided not to plug it in the night before last, then some emergency happened, and you jumped in it to find you had <25 miles before Armageddon turned the lights off.

but if you're doing 200 miles every other day then you're somewhere in the region of 30K miles a year. Which would make you somewhat of an outlier, as far as average car use is concerned....

Aberdeen has hydrogen buses, quite a few broke down on initial use, but I think that is sorted now.

Ok, you have to factor in a lifestyle change to remember to plug it in every night,

I think that's it people would have to plug in pretty much every night.

bikebouy - Member

Hydrogen's the only real world alternative IMO.

there's a lot to be said for hydrogen as a replacement fuel, but overall it's less efficient, and you can't really store it adequately...

Regarding the breaks I see it as a good thing forcing people to stop for the appropriate time.

As navigation systems get more advanced (eg Google telling you when you need to leave by to get to a meeting) I see the breaks just being planned automatically as your nav system will know how much range you have and book you a charging slot.

One problem is what if 200 cars all want to charge at once at services? The number of charge points and the power network to them becomes a problem. But again with integrated navigation it could book you a slot earlier if needed due to over demand at the ideal location or you should have enough reserve to make the next as it will be conservative in case of incident.

I have no doubt we will see a lot more people running out of battery on the motorways though unless cars can actively alert you and try and stop you joining a motorway if you dont have enough juice for the next services.

But still, lets say if you do get "real world" mileage out of the battery, then whats been said it's about 175-200 miles. Obvs you can add into the equation all the gubbins the cars running (AirCon/Radio/lights..) and thats still rubbish for running around Town for a couple of days.
Ok, you have to factor in a lifestyle change to remember to plug it in every night, or every other night. But you'd be in panic mode if you'd decided not to plug it in the night before last, then some emergency happened, and you jumped in it to find you had <25 miles before Armageddon turned the lights off.
Ok, so you could call out a tow truck to tow you to a charge point, whereby you sit in it looking and feeling like a dork waiting for the thing to charge enough to get you to whatever emergency is still pending.

Pluging in takes I imagine about 30seconds? And it't not like petrol where you can weigh up things like the cost of filing up now Vs after payday, because it's only going to cost you £2, and it's not weighing the car down being full of electricity. Even the archetypal stressing single parent on the school run could manage to plug something in whilst hearding their offspring into the house.

They actually do a lot more 'MPG' around town than out of town, because all that stop/start driving is recoverable energy whereas driving at 70 loses it all to wind resistance. As others said, 200miles+ a day is not 'normal', even less so in London (do even cabbies manage that?). And even so, 200miles without a lunch break?

As noted, 200miles to Canary Warf, where are you commuting from, Sheffield?

I still wonder why they're not designed with a backup 3cyl diesel engine or something like the iOne thing BMW have designed. Was the Scope to just produce "the worlds, not quite, fully electric car with leather seats"?

Hydrogen's the only real world alternative IMO. For years it's been on the back burner of a designers crayon. BMW had a stint a few years ago then dropped it because of the fashion for Batteries, only to return back to Hydrogen last year. I don't know of any more Brands adopting this technology, surely there should be some more.

It's expensive and inefficient through.

Ok, you have to factor in a lifestyle change to remember to plug it in every night,

I think that's it people would have to plug in pretty much every night.

Most people wouldn't even need to plug it in every week -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28546589

(although they probably should do...)

One problem is what if 200 cars all want to charge at once at services?

That's most motorway services between about 22nd Dec and 1st Jan (minus Xmas day).

and even so, 200miles without a lunch break?

I've done over 300 miles in one go fairly regularly, it isn't a big deal tbh.

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet but the fact it's not a hatch back like a model s is a big flaw. I'm very keen on the concept and I know their deposit numbers show big demand but I feel that having such a small rear opening has really limited how useful the Model 3 is.

I used to think the same as this:

One problem is what if 200 cars all want to charge at once at services?

But I'm swaying towards this now:

which would save time in the long run compared to petrol or diesel cars where you have to fill up mid-journey every few hundred miles whatever distances you're doing.

I [i]could[/i] go and use the computers in the library, but if I can do it at home for a few more pennies on my electricity bill, why bother? It'll be the same with charging stations. If you can't do it elsewhere or you're on an exceptional journey (The national travel survey [document nts0308] says that 99% of car journeys are less than 100 miles) then you'll use a charging point at a petrol/service station, otherwise you'll just do it at home.

I will openly say I just don't get if, would buy a small engined petrol car all day long over a 'lecy car. You see many many Smart cars in Paris as they are useful for parking. Despite all the charging points very few electric cars. AFAIK Hybrids pay zero/less congestion charge in central London so I get the Hybrid thing (even on Cayenne and Panamera). IMO a full electric vehcike is still at least 5-10 years too early and they only make any economic sense as petrol taxes are so high.

As for range/distance I've driven 400-500 miles without stopping many times. 200 mikes with a compulsory 30+ min stop, would be a right pita

I wouldn't expect many electric cars at Canary Wharf Waitrose - if only because practically no one commutes by car there, and those who do aren't going to saunter out twice in the middle of their working day to charge their car in a supermarket car park. Those who live locally to CW aren't going to be buying expensive electric cars either

I think many people will be happy to plug in at home - after all, loads of people seem happy to drive all over the place to save thppence hapenny on a litre of diesel

i think some people have an odd idea about what "normal" driving is for most people.

HINT:- almost everyone you know will be able to do almost all their driving for a week on one charge.

@ghostly I understand your comment that many people do less than 10,000 a year but many do nit and many may not use the car much one week but do 500 miles the next. I do only 3,000-5,000 pa in my car but it sits unsed for weeks then we might do 500-1000 in one period

Also right now the government raises many billions from motorists via fuel duty. If we all drive electric cars we'd be taxed on those instead and the economics would chnage.

This is based on statistics from where?

Or just assumptions, guesswork and made up?

Those who do sit outside the customer profile (much fewer than you seem to think) simply won't be customers. Unless they are mis-sold the cars, like the thousands who bought diesels for pottering round the city.

And FWIW, the electric car is seen as one major step towards a major change in the whole car ownership model.

As for range/distance I've driven 400-500 miles without stopping many times.

Wow. That's pretty unsafe.

deadlydarcy - Member
As for range/distance I've driven 400-500 miles without stopping many times.
Wow. That's pretty unsafe.

4-500 might be a little bit too much for regular, but i'll easily do 300 non stop, quite easy really and i've just done it again from UK to Germany and will do the same back from Luxembourg on Friday. Eleccy cars have theor place for the school run (no i don't agree with the school run), but for general business users, whom are the people that use most fuel, eleccy cars are too far off from being viable.

edit: 4-500 miles non-stop is normsl for an alps trip 🙂

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Because then you have not only almost a ton of batteries, but also another half ton of diesel engine, and fuel tanks, and not just the weight, you've added another £10k to the cost of the car.

The Tesla battery pack is a little over half a ton. A typical car engine is way under half a ton never mind a little one (my 2.2 is apparently 340lbs but that's not what you'd put in it)

Some of the range extenders being developed (think very small single speed optimsed engine running a tiny gearbox/generator) are under 100 kilos, complete. (Engine, gearbox, generator, charging kit, fuel tank/supply and exhaust system)

4-500 miles non-stop is normsl for an alps trip

Do you need to be lifted out of the car at the end? Can you still walk? My legs would have seized up hours ago, never mind bladder capacity issues...

[quote=Sui ] 4-500 miles non-stop is normsl for an alps trip

Ha try nearer[url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Aberdeen,+Aberdeen+City,+UK/Verbier,+Bagnes,+Switzerland/ @51.282975,-7.1009669,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x4884054c1fd77549:0xe8bb05da5cf4c472!2m2!1d-2.094278!2d57.149717!1m5!1m1!1s0x478ecfcef7a6a973:0xffde3e9c0d278891!2m2!1d7.2288752!2d46.0960759!3e0] 1161 miles [/url]

Range extenders are fine but if they are really going to be efficient the car it is driving needs to be specced more like the Tesla and less like an Ampera. They don't fit into Teslas image though and thats their choice.

Definitely agree it should change ownership, even now if I lived in a city I'd be considering joining a car club,

Hydrogen has been actively pursued by Honda for years now, whoever brought that up. You can run a regular IC engine on it with sufficient strengthening but the primary source of problems is the limited fuel capacity derived from the strength needed in the tanks. Hydrogen buses have the entire roof space devoted to gas cylinders as thats what you need to make it viable. Fuel cells are better but the energy required to generate hydrogen is enormous and certainly cancels out any good unless its done emission free.

ghostlymachine - Member

Some of the range extenders being developed (think very small single speed optimsed engine running a tiny gearbox/generator) are under 100 kilos, complete. (Engine, gearbox, generator, charging kit, fuel tank/supply and exhaust system)

Aye- people still think in terms of standard automotive drivetrain, power levels etc rather than generator.

@ghostly I understand your comment that many people do less than 10,000 a year but many do nit and many may not use the car much one week but do 500 miles the next. I do only 3,000-5,000 pa in my car but it sits unsed for weeks then we might do 500-1000 in one period

That just means this model is not for you. It's not for everyone. No one has said it is.

Got my order in at 3.30 am when the website opened.

One concern is the lack of hatchback for bike / surfboard transport. Not sure about roof racks on the glass roof.

Never drive more than 200 miles in a day, have a driveway etc like millions of others.

People seem to forget how much more pleasant our towns would be if there weren't thousands of noisy cars around belching crap into the atmosphere. Oh no but a car's got to be noisy or people are going to DIE. Damn cancel that order.

And other examples of small mindedness

If you're developing an apartment block in a narrow, dead-end street that's next to a railway station, bike path, car share service, bus route and tram line, should you be required to provide private car parking as well?
Yes, according to the state planning tribunal, which has overturned a council's approval for a "deep green" apartment development in Brunswick after a neighbouring developer objected.
The proposed $5 million project, called Nightingale, was designed with no car parking – and Moreland Council's approval for it was overturned last week because it lacked parking.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/green-building-with-no-car-parking-thrown-out-by-vcat-for-having-no-car-parking-20151022-gkfia5.html#ixzz44uVNPZ3N
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People are moving from the traditional rules, do some people actually need to own a car? If somebody ordered 50 of these Teslas then set them up as shared ownership? Having gone for a year without a car due to being within walking distance of shops etc. over the year it was cheaper to hire for the times I needed something (Van for racing, small car for a day away etc.) than owning something that was a compromise.

I still wonder why they're not designed with a backup 3cyl diesel engine or something like the iOne thing BMW have designed. Was the Scope to just produce "the worlds, not quite, fully electric car with leather seats"?

Ok, you have to factor in a lifestyle change to remember to plug it in every night, or every other night. But you'd be in panic mode if you'd decided not to plug it in the night before last, then some emergency happened, and you jumped in it to find you had <25 miles before Armageddon turned the lights off.

There was a thread a while back on soft drinks that ended up with people utter disbelieving that people could carry around a reusable water bottle and fill from a public source. They came up with all sorts of reasons which were mostly crap.

some more info

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/04/the-post-model-3-reveal-reveals-what-we-know-about-the-new-tesla-four-days-out/

but i'll easily do 300 non stop, quite easy really and i've just done it again from UK to Germany and will do the same back from Luxembourg on Friday

But you'd be in panic mode if you'd decided not to plug it in the night before last, then some emergency happened, and you jumped in it to find you had <25 miles before Armageddon turned the lights off.

How does cost per mile compare to a petrol engine?

My understanding is that fuel running costs are a lot lower (charge up overnight using Economy7 at 4p/unit) but that dealership charges and tyre costs can be high.

I ran a hybrid for just under 12months a couple of years ago. We used it around Town when the congestion charge exemption was put in place for hybrids. It was a Prius, it was one of very few cars available in hybrid form back then, and before full Leccy cars came out.
TBH, the car was great. It was quiet in the back streets whilst running at less than 25mph because it was running on battery. Great at stops because the engine was off and pulling away was simplicity in itself. I enjoyed it, not a lot but it saved us paying the congestion charge and we felt humble and we're not from Islington.
I totally get Hybrids, I think they are the way forward, a combination of battery and petrol/diesel engine is simplicity itself.
I'm enjoying seeing all the new tech come out in Hybrids, glad all the SUV type vehicles are changing over to Hybrids, Toyota are really pushing Hybrids too even with the smallest of their vehicles, one day these Hybrids will become the norm and I applaud that loudly.

I just don't get why a luxury brand like Tesla haven't gone down the same route? It would be easy for them to adopt, plenty of viable options for them to pursue with many varieties of design too. Adopt that design segment and I think they couldn't make enough of them.

As is, they are alone in a world where the limits of the cars distance limit it's appeal. It's a limited audience market to fill, but they could adopt a Luxury Taxi Leccy powered promotion.. because thats all I think they'll become soon. Luxury Taxis, in the same way Merc EClass and BMW 7Series are.

bikebouy - Member

I just don't get why a luxury brand like Tesla haven't gone down the same route? (hybrid)

just guessing...

1) you can already buy hybrid cars - where's the room for Tesla to develop/sell unique vehicles?

2) it's only a matter of time before [i]any[/i] car (vehicle?) with a combustion engine is banned from cities like LA, Paris, London, etc.

2) it's only a matter of time before any car (vehicle?) with a combustion engine is banned from cities like LA, Paris, London, etc.

Yep, in my lifetime I expect to see only electric vehicles in cities.

Just throwing my thoughts out there; the range is poor - not terrible , just poor , but more laughable is the time to recharge.

For me to buy one it would need a range of around 300 miles (but higher is better), and a charge time that is measured in single digit minutes. I dont want to be stopping every 160 miles , and waiting 30 mins for a recharge (assuming there is an available charging point, and I dont have to queue for one)

The idea of having to wait 30 minutes while it recharges during a long journey is just unacceptable. The charging infrastructure at motorway services would have to be massive if everyone had one of these cars.

They'll improve though, and in maybe 10 years, these problems will be overcome.

footflaps - Member
2) it's only a matter of time before any car (vehicle?) with a combustion engine is banned from cities like LA, Paris, London, etc.
Yep, in my lifetime I expect to see only electric vehicles in cities

I agree, totally support that. I mentioned earlier in my other [s]moan[/s] post that cities should be EV only, especially London/Paris/Milan etc. Large cities where space and congestion is a proper issue.

The batteries are getting smaller and more energy dense faster than manufacturers can keep up. I've been knocking round the edge of the hybrid stuff for a few years and the batteries are now about half the size. Twice the capacity and capable of being charged with about 10 times the input current.

Give it another few years we'll be wondering what all the fuss is about.

I still (personally) think the whole hybrid/electric car concept thing has masses of holes in it, regarding emissions/logistics/safety as so on, but the legislation is there, the market is there, and it's a step in the right direction.

It might turn out to be the wrong direction in 10 years time, but as ever, we'll have to deal with that when we get there.

maybe 10 years, these problems will be overcome.

I'm not so sure, as it isn't like batteries are new tech. Also this car isn't actually going to be delivered for nearly another 2 years.

Much as I've always hated the idea of hybrids, if you want to go EV for around town with the occasional long trip away, then they look the best option for the foreseeable future.

For me to buy one it would need a range of around 300 miles (but higher is better), and a charge time that is measured in single digit minutes. I dont want to be stopping every 160 miles

it's interesting that many people seem to view this as a car that must be able to do [i]everything[/i], when they don't put that expectation on other cars - you don't see people complaining that you can't get bikes in the back of a Polo or that an M3 isn't cheap to run.

as linked above, the average UK driver only does about 152 miles a WEEK, let alone in one journey. I don't know many families with 2 cars but for those that do, I'd image an EV is ideal for the town/school/shopping runabout. And there's a huge market for that stuff, as 5 minutes outside a school at 9am will demonstrate.

More than enough for Tesla to get their teeth into while they ramp up production, I'd say. At the moment it seems that their sales numbers are going to be limited by their production capacity, not their market niche...

that dealership charges and tyre costs can be high.

julians - Member

The idea of having to wait 30 minutes while it recharges during a long journey is just unacceptable.

really?

not even considering the huge fuel savings?

after i've had a pee, a coffee and a pasty, i reckon i'd be happy waiting an additional 10minutes to save myself £50....

Given that you can charge it for less than a tenner it sort of puts the "negatives" in perspective.

after i've had a pee, a coffee and a pasty, i reckon i'd be happy waiting an additional 10minutes to save myself £50....

to be fair, after the coffee and the pasty, you're probably down to about £12 😉

after i've had a pee, a coffee and a pasty, i reckon i'd be happy waiting an additional 10minutes to save myself £50....

nah - i want to get to where I'm going as quick as possible, plus I dont need a pee, coffee and pasty every 160 miles.

Like I say get the range higher and the recharge time becomes less of an issue, or get the recharge time down and the range is less of an issue, but with the range very low (by internal combustion engine standards) and the recharge time very high , its just not what I would buy - for me any way.

I appreciate for a lot of people who only do local/short journeys that range/recharge time will not be an issue, but I want one car that can do all types of journey I might need to do (so thats short journeys of <40 miles, up to a trip to the alps at 1000 miles). So at present the tesla is no good for me.

Give it time though, and things will mature.