I know what you mean, but whilst I'm on my soapbox also consider that 23 out of 29 cabinet members are multi-millionaires at the most recent estimate. Indeed a recent documentary (BBC or C4 i think) suggested that 60% of Parliament are millionaires when property is taken into account.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oligarchy
the old aristo's were happy with some gongs and titles, the newer mob just like money and lots of it-- tis reward for services to capitalism inc, if i remember when chavez was first elected, he was quick to stop cronyism, -- i would take all their ill-gotten off them, make em live like the rest of us--- buck palace-- the worlds finest fully manned toilets........
wrecker - Member
Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directorsI don't know how they get away with it. How can such an obvious conflict of interest be permitted?
It's strange, it's similar to the phone hacking and the pres thing. We all "knew" it went on, but it took a specific combination of events and circumstances to make it become an issue in the public consciousness, action to taken and hopefully things to change.
We all "know" this is how politics works these days - but a specific combination of events and circumstances need to take place before anything can be done. And it really,really needs to happen
Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directorsI don't know how they get away with it. How can such an obvious conflict of interest be permitted?
It's because the poor hard up dears don't get paid enough as an MP, they need it to make ends meet.
It's because the poor hard up dears don't get paid enough as an MP, they need it to make ends meet.
I'd like to make their ****ing ends meet...... 😀
Quite depressing all this, isn't it? Someone asked- what's the alternative?
I have to say- for me personally, up here in Scotland, it's independence.
I know there's a shitload of things still to be worked out, and it's not gonna be cheap. But I am sick of successive Westminster governments shafting us up here, most notably the current Tory (I mean, coalition) one. We didn't vote them in.. The south of England did - as they almost always will.
There's no way the Uk electoral system is going to be reformed (or downsized/rationalised)- turkeys don't vote for Christmas after all. So what's the alternative?
Get the hell out and try and come up with a better system.
I realise this is a bit off topic, ive already stated my admiration for the job the police continue to do in the context of ever- more difficult circumstances.. But things aren't going to get better with the next government- even if it's a labour one.
I'm a southerner but def not a tory, can i move to the utopia that will be an independant Scotlandshire? Please.
The Hillsborough affair, the death of Ian Tomlinson and the deaths of too many people in police custody show that we must have a more accountable police force, if we are to move forward as a society.
The police in the UK are actually really rather accountable. Which goes a long way in explaining why they are so superior to many other police forces throughout the world.
A good example of the British police's accountability is the huge systemic changes which occurred after the tragic case of Stephen Lawrence. Lessons were learnt and the police today is very different to the police before Stephen Lawrence's death.
Constant criticism and a willingness to respond is what has got us the police forces which we have today. But also vital is the recognition of achievements and gratitude for an exemplary service when warranted.
i think this nicely sums up the current governments attitudes to police
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chief-whip-andrew-mitchell-apologises-for-police-tirade-8162512.html ]the 56-year-old chief whip: "Best you learn your f*** place. You don't run this f Government. You're f*** plebs," after he was stopped from using the main gate. [/url]
"Policing by consent" seems to be a phrase trotted out on a regular basis. On a practical level what does it actually mean and how does British "policing by consent" actually differ from policing in other democratic countries?
[quote=althepal ]Quite depressing all this, isn't it? Someone asked- what's the alternative?
I have to say- for me personally, up here in Scotland, it's independence.
See you tomorrow?
i think this nicely sums up the current governments attitudes to police
Not being a Whitehall-ian Peeler that doffs his cap to the political classes – If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station – in line with the Governments drive to tackle yobbish behaviour!
Policing by consent is a polite term for saying that the majority of people abide by most laws most of the time. It relies on a consensus that the police(vevlet glove)are better than the army(iron fist)for social control.
That is their function, to maintain social control, this breaks when those being policed no longer accept this concept, certain parts of cities will have this phenomena, it can happen in industrial disputes and certainly in civil war.
no doubt you may hear a different spin on this, but it relies on a certain degree of co-operation to be effective
deluded - Member
Not being a Whitehall-ian Peeler that doffs his cap to the political classes – If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station – in line with the Governments drive to tackle yobbish behaviour!
cant believe hes still in his job, im assuming that there is cctv all over the place there and im see no reason why the copper would lie
shouldve breathalysed him before he got on his bike, you can bet he was tanked up on port as well as his own enormous sense of self worth
If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station
According to the Sun that is precisely the same attitude which the officers concerned took :
[b][i]Despite his fury, the officers refused to budge and warned him that he would be arrested under the Public Order Act if he continued to abuse them.[/i][/b]
[url= http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4549265/Andrew-Mitchell-insults-police-at-Downing-Street-by-calling-them-fing-plebs.html ]Cabinet minister: Police are plebs[/url]
That article makes very interesting reading btw. This bit :
Right-winger and keen cyclist Mr Mitchell is a former shadow police minister and was until recently International Development Secretary.A former investment banker, he is worth at least £2.2million and owns a number of s****y homes.
He lives in one of the most fashionable squares in Islington, North London, with his GP wife Sharon and their two daughters.
He also has a house in his Sutton Coldfield constituency in Birmingham and a property in the French ski resort of Val d’Isere.
......sounds like a classic piece of socialist/leftwing envy which I would expect to read in the Morning Star. We live in strange/interesting times.
his wikipedia entry shows him to be your average tory
tax avoidance and lobbying for cash
The Government needs to get the police back on side — before another wave of strikes leaves them desperate for cops’ support.Just a bit of Sun 'opinion' in case you thought they had strayed to the left.
What this thread has shown is that people still want to join the force. Despite what the media or society throws up (riots, deaths of officers, eroded terms and conditions.), the thin blue line is getting thinner, colleagues are retiring and not being replaced. My force has a freeze on recruitment at present yet we need more officers. When this will happen, who knows.
What really annoys me is the media. Officers will often be criticised (and deservedly so), but what often gets unreported are the acts that save lives, and prevent disasters from happening.
It is a tough job, and yes I agree NHS and hm forces do a tough job too. Public servants are feeling the cosh of this government more and more, and you have pointed out that the govmt. alternatives are just as bad.
It is the small things that help, a colleague of mine saved a small child yesterday as she was choking. He was first on scene and his first aid saved the Childs life. The ambulance was another 5 minutes. Again because the paramedic was elsewhere and they too were stretched to the limit.
What is scary is what would happen should another spate of riots take hold. Would we(the emergency services) be able to provide you, the public, with the service you deserve?
The Sun under the ownership of Rupert Murdoch is never going to be "left-wing" rudebwoy. What is unusual and interesting is the Sun's attacks on Tory politicians, specially from a perspective of their personal wealth and privileged backgrounds (something which the Daily Mail has also done recently btw)
Equally unusual and interesting is a Tory Party which is clearly relaxed about seriously antagonizing the police service. Yep, imo we live in strange/interesting times.
The Murdoch empire, the police and the government are making a pretence of being at loggerheads, normal service will soon be resumed, with loans of horses, knighthoods and expensive meals, as they all cosy up together for mutual protection.
They are not going to get have mutual protection by being at loggerheads with each other. And I'm not sure that any damage they have done to each others interests can be wiped away by simply 'resuming normal service'.
The day the police join the pickets, thats when you know you've got a revolution
I support everything my police officer colleagues have said in this thread, there is no other job like it. Yes the military risk their lives every day and, like us, they knew what they were signing up to. Like my fellow officers I joined to complete 30yrs service with a decent pension at the end of it. This Government wants to change my contract without me having any choice in the matter. I cannot strike and although we have a federation, they have tried, and mostly failed, so far to defend our position. If this was really about saving money then why didn't the Government accept our money saving proposals which would have saved the same if not more than the current proposals without the risk of devaluing and destroying the police service as we know it? And as for the 'independent' review that brought these proposals forward, Tom Windsor's report mirrors that of a report made by Cameron some years ago and not only does he have connections with G4s he has now been given the role of her majesty's chief inspectorate, despite never serving as a police officer. The Tories have done a brilliant job of turning the public against us in regards of pay and conditions, so much so that our views and opinions sound like nothing more than sour grapes now. The job is different to every other out there and should be treated differently, unless you are a serving officer it is now very difficult to see past the Tories spin. I will never be voting Conservative again.
Trevor.
Objectively policing isn't a dangerous job. Even being in the military isn't too dangerous unless you do bomb disposal. Dangerous jobs include window cleaning, fishing, oil and gas, farming, mining .. ermm , mining, best stop there.
The police in the UK are actually really rather accountable. Which goes a long way in explaining why they are so superior to many other police forces throughout the world.A good example of the British police's accountability is the huge systemic changes which occurred after the tragic case of Stephen Lawrence. Lessons were learnt and the police today is very different to the police before Stephen Lawrence's death.
Constant criticism and a willingness to respond is what has got us the police forces which we have today. But also vital is the recognition of achievements and gratitude for an exemplary service when warranted.
They may well be more accountable than other forces, but there is still a long way to go. I accept that we can never have a perfect police force in an imperfect society, but just because our police are 'better' than other countries' does not mean we should be complacent. Our police aren't the best in the World, and it's our duty as citizens to ensure we keep striving to make them so, through vigilance and criticism. This is for all our benefit.
Call-me-Dave has graced GMP with his presence today, no doubt for his photo op, then he'll hot foot it back to the safety of the South East. I'm sure they'll all be very pleased to see him
They may well be more accountable than other forces, but there is still a long way to go.
Again, worryingly - I heard what I think was a senior policeman from greater Manchester on the radio talking about the response to the Dale Cregan murders. He talked about how great it was how the public have responded, especially after the police have been getting a kicking from the newspapers recently, and how certain people just love to put the boot in (not quite in those words).
Erm yeah.... the police have been heavily criticised recently because many of them took part in a fairly wide-ranging and serious conspiracy to defame innocent dead people (including children) in order to cover up their own incompetence. A conspiracy which has only properly come to light decades later, after numerous attempts to whitewash and cover it up.
A little contrition might be in order you would think.
I didn't hear the interview on the radio but I fail to understand what is wrong in reminding people that despite the damning events of Hillsborough all those years ago, there is also another side to policing. In fact I think it is rather timely to be reminded, and all the more so after the recent tragic deaths of two police officers in Manchester.
I think it would be fine to mention it, but some recognition of the fact that much of the criticism over Hillsborough was entirely justified might be in order.
If it had been put the way you put it I would have found it more palateable - it just came across as a bit of a moan that 'oh we always get a hard time'. Maybe so, but in the case of Hillsborough quite understandably. I just find you get a lot of this 'we have to stick together' mentality from the police being expressed here and elsewhere, and a lack of willingness to criticise fellow officers even when they have clearly behaved terribly - which is rather worrying in terms of preventing future abuses.
Despite there seemingly being many officers on here not many were willing to offer an opinion on Hillsborough for instance - why is that? Don't want to criticise their fellow officers, or believe they were wronged and still blame the fans?
I can understand why it happens but the 'bunker mentality' is not healthy IMO.
Fair enough I didn't hear the radio interview so can't argue with that. Although an example which everyone can relate to would have made your point more clearly, I would have thought.
As far as your little dig at coppers on this forum is concerned; it has long been clear to me that those who openly declare themselves to be coppers (I'm sure some probably don't) are easily among the most sensible and rational forum users, and with which you can often engage in logical debate. Which isn't by any means universal on here.
I am not in the least bit surprised that they don't want to get bogged down arguing about policing on a mtb forum, even least about something as emotive as Hillsborough. In fact I suspect they probably often don't even bother clicking on "police threads", in the same way as I don't bother clicking on some of the political threads - specially ones concerning trade unions.
But judging by their past contributions, unlike apparently you, I have absolutely no reason to believe that any would reject the conclusion which now accepted by everyone, including the police force concerned, that Hillsborough was anything other than a total policing disaster with tragic consequences.
As far as your little dig at coppers on this forum is concerned;
Not really meant as a dig - I just worry that there is still a 'stick together and protect your own' mentality within the police which is understandable but not healthy. Maybe I'm wrong.
Glitch bump.
Well said Ernie.
I have absolutely no reason to believe that any would reject the conclusion which now accepted by everyone, including the police force concerned, that Hillsborough was anything other than a total policing disaster with tragic consequences.
Only grudgingly accepted by some people, eg Norman Bettison. Is it safe to assume he is the only one?
There must be quite a number of people in the police force who have essentially gone along with this defamation/cover-up - either actively involved or keeping silent about it. Are they all going to be sacked/prosecuted? Sorry but it seems unlikely.
I haven't had a chance yet to read the most recent stuff that's come out about Hillsborough, and will do so at some point. But regarding the 150+ (or whatever it was) police statements that were altered to cover up incompetency, was it 150+ officers being told to alter their own statements and then doing so, or was it 150+ officer's statements being altered by bosses to remove parts that criticised the senior officers? My understanding was that it was the latter, alterations made by senior officers to keep themselves out of the shit, rather than 100's of officers hiding stuff. Is that incorrect?
its not incorrect greatape but the police (and ambo drivers) who had their statements altered did not speak out, assuming they got to see/ sign off on their final statement
assuming they got to see/ sign off on their final statement
That's what I'm wondering - did they know?
Druidh- I would do but we have a wee week and a bit old that only got out of hospital yesterday so I'll be at home for the foreseeable!
I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don't believe everything you are told and maybe read some of the officers statements to see how traumatic it would have been for them, then and now.
I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don't believe everything you are told
Everything you are told by who?
One officer at Hillsborough who was pensioned off young due to Hillsborough "trauma" is now living happily in France... . Now where's that smiley with a zip through the mouth?
And several more officers are not! Read the statements, imagine how you would feel in that situation and make your own judgements. In my opinion it wasn't just the fault of the police, yes the commanders in charge that day made bad decisions but the PCs on the ground did what they could in the face of a disaster. All parties contributed to what happened that day and if you read individual statements and speak to people who lived near the ground there certainly was drunkeness and many fans without tickets and officers abused and spat on when tending to the injured and that is fact. All I ask is that you don't just take what is said in the media as gospel. The evidence is available for everyone to view.
Trevor.
I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don't believe everything you are told and maybe read some of the officers statements to see how traumatic it would have been for them, then and now.
I am sorry it was traumatic for the officers then and now at Hillsborough. As traumatic for the 96 dead, their families and friends. For the 23 years of lies. For the coverup. Yes I have read most of the report and the statements and how do they sleep at nights. The depths these officers plumbed and the lies they told, ok some were factual but many many many were not. DO NOT DARE TELL ME HOW TRAUMATIsED OFFICERS WERE BY HILLSBOROUGH, HAVE SOME RESPECT.
Yeah don't believe everything you read! Especially if its a police statement, there is a 75% likelihood its been altered (fact 116 of 164 statements, sorry recollections altered) equally anything out of senior police officers mouths.
I truly cannot believe you have the audacity to make that statement. Truly shameful. When should we start believing what we read, the last week and half or the last 23 years?
Yeah a coppers lot may be difficult but do yourselves a favour, stop covering things up, stop trying to mislead the public. When you make a mistake stand up and answer for it rather than besmirching the good name of 96 dead souls. OK I am close to Hillsborough but look at all the other lies and coverups.
Desperately sorry two officers were killed by a scrote BUT take a damn good look at what the police force is. Norman Bettison, I rest my case, even after the findings last week he still insisted the fans contributed, he has since apologised, too little too late Its been a 23 year coverup and not a single officer came forward, not a single officer was man enough to say this is wrong they all closed ranks and thought that they could hide the truth.
If anyone crosses you on this thread, use the ultimate insult; 'pleb'
😆
In seriousness. Hillsborough and two officers killed were sharing Beeb news coverage with some birds tits (who cares? He wont be a popular King just like his Dad wouldnt)....nowhere near the Queen and now Plebgate. Wtf.
Didn't the Report deal with any contribution from drunken and ticketless fans to the disaster?
