It certainly should not be a popularity contest but allowing a perception of a no mercy approach to an element of policing did him no favours and I believe he could and should have headed off the negative publicity sooner, instead he seemed to bask in that reputation. Like all things you have to pick your battles and I just think he fought it badly
Slowly but surely all the things which once made Britain unique and the envy of the world have been eroded to a level that at best are now average. The two British institutions still remaining which provide a shinning example to the rest of the world are the BBC and British police.
Thank you Ernie.
Project, I never had/ have issues with the policing of roads, I'm just saying that at that time an image of targeting motorist was allowed to develop at the expence of other policing duties, it wasn't true but people believed it and that was the mistake imo. I'm not critical of the policy just the execution. I'm making no comment on the current plocies as this has already strayed way off topic except to say all my dealings with the police have been positive ( I nearly joined 10 years ago!) And take my hat off to them all.
Everything will be done on the cheap
This.
Nobody is disputing economic reality. What really fugging riles is how it's being used as an excuse for some kind of ideological yardsale - whether it be offloading police stuff to G4S or handing NHS primary care over to Serco. [i]Far[/i] from providing value, it simply amounts to a subsidy of corporate profits even as services are being reduced. All waved thru by a bunch of politicos who, I suspect, would pish themselves with fear if they had to do a nightshift on the sharp end of things.
Speaking as an NHS type, I have huge sympathy for frontline Police and what they have to deal with.
[i]what other job in the public sector do you get spat on , punched, stabbed, shot, killed,?[/i]
Maybe not shot at work (yet)
Prison Officers deal with what the police/courts send them, often for years & years.
I spent tonight on G wing with one other colleague & 50 category C prisoners. 4 of them on ACCTS (self harm obs).
& we'll do it all again tomorrow,
I began reading last nights thread with regard to the very sad loss of two of my colleagues but refrained from comment as I knew there may be trolls at some point that would make my blood boil and as an officer of 29 years service I can rise above it. I have read the initial parts of this thread but skim read the usual comments that often appear to come from people trolling.
I too have sadly had to reply to friends of my children who are considering the Police as a 'career' with similar words to the OP. I still say my piece when in meetings with managers for the good of the staff that will still be in the job after I have gone, likewise I now feel it is time to defend the good officers and police staff against any misconceptions or bad experiences some of the STW world and friends and family have experienced.
Firstly having done 17 years of shift work in uniform before specialising I can without doubt say that policing has damaged my health for ever through lack of sleep/conditions/poor lifestyle but i offset this with the number of lives I have saved whilst risking my own life. I am proud to have recieved 10 police constable commendations for bravery and a Royal Humane Society award for saving a womans life in imminent danger. I have also been grilled in both Crown Court and Magistrates Court for policing and protecting myself and others and been treated as the criminal but always cleared of any wrong doing.
I have payed over 11% of my monthly pay to recieve a pension that because of the ill health that I have gained through policing will potentially cut my life short by 10 years to what I should have lived, when the average worker, even public sector worker has only paid in 3%!
The current specialist job I do within the job I love doing, I still get the rush and satisfaction when a criminal gets 8 years for dealing in poison or other long sentence for destroying peoples lives by other means.
I have known bad officers, rest assured Karma happens, what goes around comes around and some of those bad officers have ended up where they belong-in prison!
Soldiers have soldiers jobs, different in training and deployment and in expectations that they will be willing to kill or be killed for their Queen and Country.
99.9% of Officers are fine, upstanding, giving, selfless human beings who have a heart and as an aside feel that they really are being decimated by previous financial mis-management and the whimsy of current political puppetry.
I for one am so sad that I now wish my life away for the next twelve months so that I am no longer part of what used to be a policing family of the people for the people of the UK but as others have alluded to will become a dwindling number amongst a sea of 'cheap' policing with no care and no heart.
Rant over, as I have to be up early to go and keep everyone safe from harm!
hm forces still a shinning example also?
Glitchy
[quote=Suggsey ]I began reading last nights thread with regard to the very sad loss of two of my colleagues but refrained from comment as I knew there may be trolls at some point that would make my blood boil and as an officer of 29 years service I can rise above it. I have read the initial parts of this thread but skim read the usual comments that often appear to come from people trolling.Everyone who doesn't agree with every word the OP writes is a troll?
Is that really all you saw fit to comment on from Suggseys post?Everyone who doesn't agree with every word the OP writes is a troll?
Good but sad comments Suggsey and as someone who sees first hand on a regular basis the sort of shit the Police have to put up with, I have nothing but respect for the job they do.
Your comments re 'wishing away the next 12 months' hit home, as I have seen many good colleagues do exactly the same thing, some from fear that their pension is going to change before they retire and others due to failing health. It's an appalling state of affairs.
has damaged my health for ever through lack of sleep/conditions/poor lifestyle
so what makes your shifts different from everybody elses? or as you have stated poor lifestyle, you have the federation who seem to be good at ensuring you are looked after
shorter life what do you base that on?
retiring at 50 or less on an average pension index linked of £14k sounds good to me
yes it is a hard job and one I couldnt and wouldnt do and it is vital that the right type are recruited and retained and the powermad and idiots removed
Let's not get into a pissing match. But how the hell can a federation that has no bargaining chip ever look after its members.
Following from 2 weeks ago no officer with less than 20 years service will retire with the pension you talk of.
Look at the life sacrifices police officers make for a career. Even our forces sign up to 22 years. I chose the police as I did not want to be a solider.
30 years service, dealing with what society cant. At 19 that is quantifiable and achievable. 30 years. I can do that. Now let's go to 41 years.
It is a joke.
I can sit at a computer til I am 60. But really, I cannot see me saving life and limb at that age. I signed up for life.
I agree there is a requisite for change. But to change goal posts in such a manner is a disgrace.
Set the bar, but do not raise it.
Fully support the police on the cuts and shifting the goalposts on pensions etc.
Still see some worrying signs of the 'look out for your own' mentality though. I wonder how much has really changed since Hillsborough, given that we are only just finding out the truth about it now (and some are STILL blaming the fans). Also, brushing aside 1500 custody deaths with jokes and implying they're all lowlifes anyway, hmmmm......
Plenty of others doing stressful jobs btw. Not saying its the same but I know of plenty of teachers, youth workers, ambulance people, hospital workers etc who've been assaulted at work.
I did my advanced motorbike test recently. Had a good chat with the copper who did it ( voluntarily I might add). I was very jealous of him retiring after 30 years in the job. Wouldnt want to do his job fot ten times the money he gets though.
I still want to join the Specials and do my bit. The Specials awareness evening dates are rare though it seems in GMP.
Bregante if you ever fancy a Peaks/small group ride any weekend - You know the offers always there.
Isnt running down the national services the first step towards privatisation?? The tories love that word. If they hold onto the next election the G4S will be policing the streets/ picking up the injured / putting out fires. Bankrupt health boards / hospitals... one step towards privatisation. Just a matter of time.
So what about the PFI projects that are now screwing up Hospital trusts Cloudnine?
..but thats a different topic.
hora - MemberI still want to join the Specials and do my bit.
*shudders*
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Which one would you be hora?
I did my advanced motorbike test recently. Had a good chat with the copper who did it ( voluntarily I might add). I was very jealous of him retiring after 30 years in the job. Wouldnt want to do his job fot ten times the money he gets though.
He may well have to work over 40 years to get less pension now.can you imagine two 59 year old cops turning up to a pub full of fighting drunks in Salford/ any other city on a Saturday night?
Isnt running down the national services the first step towards privatisation?? The tories love that word. If they hold onto the next election the G4S will be policing the streets/ picking up the injured / putting out fires. Bankrupt health boards / hospitals... one step towards privatisation. Just a matter of time.
100% correct.
By placing ridiculous budget cuts on the service means that in many areas the service will fail. At the same time put a puppet in place as senior inspector Constabulary - Tom Winsor.
To be clear who Tom Winsor is, he is the former rail regulator with no Policing experience whatsoever. He is a partner at white & case the law firm that advised G4S on their "takeover" of Linolnshire Police.
To give colour to this also consider that the current Policing Minister Nick Herbert set up the think tank regarding the improvement of public services via private sector involvement.
Also consider that The Prudential own a large portion of G4S.
Which you may find interesting when you consider that our Home Secretary Theresa May is a Pru shareholder.
In many ways the pay & conditions arguments and concerns are a mere red herring. However, when you consider that an entirely independent tribunal made specific comment that the changes that were being proposed could not make any tangible savings, you have to wonder what is going on. Your police service are being shafted and you will feel the consequence. The problem is that the Goverment will portray the failings as the fault if the Police, thus undermining any public support or sympathy. Take the words and combative language used when Cameron 1st introduced the Winsor review:
"[i]Why is it right that these people can retire on a full pension after only 30 years of work?[/i] whilst failing to mention that MPs get exactly the same pension with only a 5.9% contribution as oppose to the 11% officers were then paying. Political corruption at its finest.
😆 at grum.
hora will always be "special"
He may well have to work over 40 years to get less pension now.can you imagine two 59 year old cops turning up to a pub full of fighting drunks in Salford/ any other city on a Saturday night?
In the private sector people get promoted above the hard physical front-line work to desk jobs as they get older. Their experience reamins within the business but gets used in other ways. Policing seems ideal for this strategy especially as such a small proportion of officers working are out and about if published statistics are to be believed. Policing is mainly a paper chase (or computer chase) and administration.
In the private sector people get promoted above the hard physical front-line work to desk jobs as they get older. Their experience reamins within the business but gets used in other ways. Policing seems ideal for this strategy especially as such a small proportion of officers working are out and about if published statistics are to be believed. Policing is mainly a paper chase (or computer chase) and administration.
You would think so wouldn't you? Yet the stated aim of the Goverment is to get cops out of the backroom roles.
mildred +1
What we are seeing, that a lot of people seem to be willfully ignoring, is the premeditated and systematic dismantling of the state as we know it. Its main functions - Health, Education, Policing are being primed, ready to be handed lock, stock and barrel, to the Tories friends in the private sector. So they can then ruthlessly exploit essential services to benefit themselves handsomely.
And once its done, it'll be irreversible. People need to wake the **** up! And fast!
So who will be the first Robocop for [s]OCP[/s] G4S?
I do not beleive that anybody's life should be shortened due to the work they do, sad fact is though in 'modern' britain, the small gains that workers made after the war through to the 1970's have been eroded.
there are still some people who blame the trade unions---truth is british economy has been in decline for a long time, short term vision/policies.
The more advanced economies put a premium on skill,this country just abuses it-- the income differentials are still rising, the strains on social relations are there for all to see-- the police are an organ of the state, their job is undoubtedly getting 'worse'-- more social problems, its an endless loop-- the same faces in and out of custody.
Until we get a govt that truly puts people before profit, this is only going to get worse.IMHO- there appears no 'party' who advocates an alternative to reductionist capitalism, i live in hope, as history shows things can change very quickly
He may well have to work over 40 years to get less pension now.can you imagine two 59 year old cops turning up to a pub full of fighting drunks in Salford/ any other city on a Saturday night?
Lots of other job threads have pointed out that there are no more jobs for life. It may be that a 50+ year old policeman will be an ex-policeman and working elsewhere.
It's all part of the race to the bottom, that the government (any hue) believes in.
What we are seeing, that a lot of people seem to be willfully ignoring, is the premeditated and systematic dismantling of the state as we know it. Its main functions - Health, Education, Policing are being primed, ready to be handed lock, stock and barrel, to the Tories friends in the private sector. So they can then ruthlessly exploit essential services to benefit themselves handsomely.And once its done, it'll be irreversible. People need to wake the **** up! And fast!
Whilst some of the anti-tory rhetoric on here is tiresome, predictable and boring; I wholeheartedly agree with this. It's being snuck through with minimal noise and it's a disgrace.
I'm absolutely stumped as to what to do about it though. I won't vote labour.
Look at the life sacrifices police officers make for a career. Even our forces sign up to 22 years. I chose the police as I did not want to be a solider.
They don't get their pension after 22 years! They have to go and get jobs.
mildred - MemberIsnt running down the national services the first step towards privatisation?? The tories love that word. If they hold onto the next election the G4S will be policing the streets/ picking up the injured / putting out fires. Bankrupt health boards / hospitals... one step towards privatisation. Just a matter of time.
100% [s]correct.[/s] misleading...
...Which you may find interesting when you consider that our Home Secretary Theresa May is a Pru shareholder.
..or that Lord (John) Reid and Lord Condon are on the board of G4S or that G4S make announcements supporting Nick Clegg, or that one of G4S most important periods of growth in the UK occurred under a Labour Government. Their tentacles are everywhere!
rudebwoy - Member
IMHO- there appears no 'party' who advocates an alternative...
Seems to be a lot closer to the mark. So if this is he case ie, not just a Tory-ideology led process (nice rhetoric, politically convenient, but factually misleading) why are no parties stopping it? Once we understand that, then serious debate can happen.
Reading this thread it seems this government (and I'm not saying the previous one was any/much better) are royally shafting public services generally and paying their chums in the private sector large amounts of money at the same time. Scandalous and in my mind criminal. I think most people seem to agree with this POV. I would hazard most in the private sector agree in principle but just say "we have already been stitched up, why shouldn't you be?" - a sad way of looking at things especially as most of the jobs where you are in danger seem to be public - police / army / ambulance / nursing / prison service etc. I'm sure there are a few private workers that face the same risks but they are probably the ones working for crap wages whilst their bosses rake in the ££'s from their political chums. And the inevitable rotten eggs in each service are the ones the media focus on 🙁 Unfortunatley there doesn't seem much any of us can do about it?
+2 for Mildred's comments!
It is a Tory ideology led process, it's just that (New?) Labour also largely follow Tory ideology now. We have no real choice.
They don't get their pension after 22 years! They have to go and get jobs.
No, but they do get it at 55, the same as Police Officers. And bear in mind that each individual service man or woman does not actually contribute any of their earnings into their pension unlike everyone else in Public service (though i believe this is right and proper due to sacrifices elsewhere).
On the topic of getting other jobs, in my experience a great many wish to continue their public service and become Police Officers. Most transfer their pensions across and are now in the sorry state that they won't get that back in the way they were sold it. Apparently that is the way to say thank you for a life of public service at the sharp end.
IMHO- there appears no 'party' who advocates an alternative...
SNP. 1000 more police officers in Scotland since 2007.
The bottom line is that private companies want to take over public services as its a gravy train. And the present government are itching to hand them the lot. The holy grail. A massive state funded private monopoly.
But when these 'employees' (or nurses, police officers, firemen etc as you may more likely know them) contracts are transferred over to them, they want minimal 'liabilities' coming with them. They only want assets. Hence the all out assault on pensions, terms and conditions, wages and employment rights.
Expect it to intensify, not get better, any time soon
I was just wondering where all the usual right wing Thatcherite suspects have gone. Very notable by their absence recently. Will no one stand up for Dave and his puppet?
I am optimistic, history repeatedly shows that is how social change comes about, we have a bankrupt political system, incapable of any progressive policies, so a downward spiral of cuts, leading to more social unrest, i wonder who will be called on by the state to 'uphold' its legitimacy.....
Last time we had open class war, the miners strike..... the then govt rewarded its guards,things seem very different now.....
I was just wondering where all the usual right wing Thatcherite suspects have gone. Very notable by their absence recently. Will no one stand up for Dave and his puppet?
I'll blow my horn--- The Hound of Gore will awake
For those interested, the military pension was changed (for the worse) in 2005. It changes again (even worse) in April 2015. What little details and examples that have been published so far makes for grim reading. A few friends I served with are now police officers and the pension pro's and con's aren't really comparable. There's quite a few differences between the schemes.
From where I stand, policing is not a glamorous job. You deal with scum and often have to bite your tongue. I'd rather be in the Green Zone of Afghanistan than the streets of Great Britain because I know I have a greater degree of freedom, ie I can kill someone, provided it can be justified.I don't get the impression the Police have that same luxury.
I would rather the Police be given more of many things; power, funding, numbers and most importantly the protection and freedom to remove the scum from our streets and keep them off our streets.
Wow. Personally, I'm really glad that there aren't too many police officers out there with views similar to your own. And have you ever heard of the term 'policing by consent'? Thankfully, not many people in the UK want to see a fully armed police force. This is something I am grateful for, as an individual. The less guns around, the better.
We live in an imperfect society with an imperfect police force. The majority surely are well-meaning and want to make a difference in society, but as we've seen recently, with various cases of police corruption, false statements, cover-ups and even the unjustified killing of innocent people, there are far too many rotten apples in the barrel. And someone earlier made a comment of how quiet those on here who are in the police were over the Hillsborough affair; there is a growing public perception of how the police as an institution operate a code of silence when it comes to their own who transgress. This is somewhat understandable, but it does not make for positive public relations.
I note that some of you use the term 'scum' to describe certainly some of the sort of people the police have to deal with. If you have this 'them and us' mentality, then there will always be division, mistrusts, fear and hatred. And conversly, those who you consider to be 'scum' will see the police as 'scum' themselves. That we live in a society with great wealth but such searing social division is an uncomfortable truth we all have to deal with, and surely the answer lies not in consolidating and enhancing such divisions, but looking at ways boundaries and barriers can be broken down between people?
The Hillsborough affair, the death of Ian Tomlinson and the deaths of too many people in police custody show that we must have a more accountable police force, if we are to move forward as a society.
I am grateful to the OP for putting forward their side of the story. We need dialogue between all members of a society, and no group should be without an effective voice.
we have a [u][b]Morally[/b][/u] bankrupt political system
I know what you mean, but whilst I'm on my soapbox also consider that 23 out of 29 cabinet members are multi-millionaires at the most recent estimate. Indeed a recent documentary (BBC or C4 i think) suggested that 60% of Parliament are millionaires when property is taken into account.
And have you ever heard of the term 'policing by consent'? Thankfully, not many people in the UK want to see a fully armed police force. This is something I am grateful for, as an individual. The less guns around, the better.
Mike - in a recent survey 4 out of 5 police officers didn't want arming either. And the first thing GMP chief constable said after the shootings were regarding his support for policing by consent, and an outright rejection of routine arming of police, before the usual right-wing-dog-whistle calls even came
In terms of job security and pensions a few have mentioned HM Forces 22 years as a comparrison. Just to note, large sections of the RAF just get an initial 9 year contract i believe. However, in the present climate of cost savings and contracts not being extended, this is softened by a substantial payment at 8 years to stay on for the full 9.
And how many of those millionaires do you reckon will pop up on the boards of the beneficiaries of their privatisation policies. Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors
I predict, as soon as this lot are voted out, the following....
George Osbourne and Dave - straight onto the boards of various banks as a reward for kicking banking reform into the long grass.
Andrew Lansley - Board of whichever US healthcare provider is presently making the most out of the NHS
Theresa May - G4S. Guaranteed!!
Jeremy Hunt - Sky/News International
Gove/Pob - Board of whichever US Education provider is presently making the most out of the 'free school' Education system
You can predict the lot. Labour were equally as shameless. I can't see any of them out-doing Blair for sheer hard-faced opportunism and lining his pockets. They'll all have a good go though
Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors
I don't know how they get away with it. How can such an obvious conflict of interest be permitted?
