[Closed] 6 Nations

I don't have an issue with Moore - he is a passionate English fan - its allowed. He used to have an awful chip on his shoulder about the scots from 1990 but he has finally recoved. He tells it like he sees it and is not to egotistical to admit when he gets it wrong.

He's a more annoying commentator than Martin Brundle, which I didn't think possible.

How awesome is beattie? I think he has made more tackles than anyone else in teh 6N and has not missed one - couple that with the amount of mtres he has gained with teh ball in hand and a few turnovers as well - just great.

Missed 2nd half of the Scotland game, (called out; caesarian section, 4 lovely puppies), delighted we won, great result for the players who have worked very hard this year for little end reward.

Back row boys are fantastic and we just need more practice at the backs supporting each other though I think that has got better as we have experienced more of it through the series.

Saw part of 2nd half England game and looked very dull driving game from France, had the backs gone on strike?

Less of a thrashing than I thought and some good signs but too little too late, much like the welsh and scots in that respect.
The worst examples of reffing and management I have ever witnessed, just dire. Honestly some of the inconsistencies just cannot be ignored and even the pundits commented on it. Why take tindall off? The small success seems to be in spite of the managing rather than because of it.
I'm a rugby fan first and an england/bristol fan second and just happy to see some good rugby played finally.
Overall, the French deserved the GS they were the best team consistantly and head and shoulders above the rest for the majority if not all of the tournament. Well done France. Nice to have the debate on the forum and I look forward to doing it all again next year for the WC!

France nervous, england not good enough to unlock the defence. Thought some would blame the ref 😉 not a great game but exciting because of what was at stake. Tindall removal was mystefying. Cole was awful, Hartley is a baboon.

This thread has been great, good insights and top banter. Diolch yn fawr to the OP and the main protaganists and all the other posters.

So how does each poster feel about their teams now. Wales were shit but to be honest we knew they lack strength in depth in most positions so given the injuries to key players it was to be expected a full strength team of Byrne, 1/2p, Centre is tricky we have some real strength here but Hook Roberts deserve sticking with unless the orange god returns, Jones, Phillips, Mongo/Deleve/Jones at 8 with Jones/JT at 6 and Warburton/Williams at 7. locks like Gough/Bradley Davies/Ian Evans/AW Jones and the front row of Gethin Rees and Jones. A team with these players would give anyone a game.

As for the others well the italian teams into the Cider League cannot happen soon enough, Ireland must be a bit dissapointed, is Sexton the answer or the problem? Can they make that jump up a level like england did prior to 2003, they do have much more depth than Wales. Scotland need some decent backs to go with their fine pack. England seem in a bit of a mess to me. Pick a small fast 13 all the time to the last game and then drop him for Tindall, Ashton despite the excitment over him didnt look all that good, he cost them the game and with all that ball they couldnt create a try in the second half. England have loads of depth and a lot of very good players but dont seem to have any real worldclass players to make things happen, if they had a player or two like BOD or Mike Phillips they would improve hugely. Foden looks good but will he be stuck with if things go wrong? England seem to quick to replace one good player with another good player without ever letting the team settle.

France look useful!

I must say that I was very disappionted with many of the crowds booing the kickers. It's just not rugby and I wish somehow it could be stopped (no idea how though).

backhander - Member

The worst examples of reffing and management I have ever witnessed, just dire. Honestly some of the inconsistencies just cannot be ignored and even the pundits commented on it.

Bryce Lawrence is exactly that - inconsistent. He wasn't biased against the English, he's just generally a poor ref. Don't forget that he was the idiot who continually penalised Vickery in the first Lions test, and then suggested a yellow card NOT a red when Burger blatantly gouged in front of him in the second test. Imo after those two tests he shouldn't be reffing at this level.

My summary:

France were the best, by a small margin, but still very beatable. They should be very good by the World Cup.

Italy the worst by a larger margin. Only home advantage gives them any wins, which is weird because it's a really nice stadium to visit.

The other 4 team were all much of a muchness, each could beat the others on a given day, depending on home advantage, dodgy reffing, injuries etc.

A good day of rugby, just a pity that it's finished for another year. Never mind, Euro Cup starts again in a week or two. Will I get a trip to Cardiff for the semifinals this year?

At least Bryce let people scrumage and penalised the team that was getting beaten, as with Vickery who couldnt handle the Beast, OK they may be getting up to illegalities but at least it was a competition. The two props who started for england were shit and got what they deserved. France could easily have claimed that the England front row repeatedly stood up towards the end when France were in pen range. Brian Moore got more wrong than the ref and all this shit about the ref loosing the game for england is a red herring IMO.

AA, you are incorrect about the lions scrum, it's widely acknowledged that Bryce was not sufficiently skilled to call it correctly.
You seem to have a massive chip about the english team, I don't think I've heard a simgle positive comment from you despite the fact that they beat wales this year an have finished above them in the 6N for 2 years now. It's getting dull and boring IMO.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

So how does each poster feel about their teams now. W...................Scotland need some decent backs to go with their fine pack.

Scotland - very frustrating - by far the best team from them I have seen for years. The injuries in the Wales game robbed Scotland of their best strike runners and knocked the stuffing out of them. 4 wins were there for the taking. If, but, maybe, and could have should have [i]again[/i] A good core of players bow who should do well for years. Still need a no 10 despite desparate Dans 3 MOM awards.

The others - not much difference between them apart from France who are far superior a side. NO one not even England had them in any trouble at any point.

As for the reffing in the England / France game -stop whinging. He was very lenient on England - lying all over the ball in rucks and popping up in the scrums - early scrum penalties totally deserved. England were completely outplayed. Stop whinging about refs when you are beaten.

IMO of an ignorant, France were the most consistent, Irish/Welsh/English poor for their potential, Scots were unlucky/inexperienced, Italy - gobshite.
It might make for an interesting WC but I fear the Down Under Nations will slaughter European teams unless there are massive changes.

Scotland - very frustrating - by far the best team from them I have seen for years

France getting close if not matching the southern hemisphere teams - they have beaten them including the all blacks in NZ recently. No one else near.

Backhander - hence the frustration.

France getting close if not matching the southern hemisphere teams - they have beaten them including the all blacks in NZ recently. No one else near.

TandemJeremy - Member

The others - not much difference between them apart from France who are far superior a side. NO one not even England had them in any trouble at any point.

Wales did, in the second half - remember France had to kick the ball away at 80 minutes to make sure that Wales didn't score and win the game. So considering Wales being well below par, I don't agree that France are FAR superior. They are where they'd want to be 18 months before the WC. They look solid but beatable and also look like they could trouble anyone.

As for the reffing in the England / France game -stop whinging. He was very lenient on England - lying all over the ball in rucks and popping up in the scrums - early scrum penalties totally deserved. England were completely outplayed. Stop whinging about refs when you are beaten.

I agree with this to a certain extent. The supposedly dodgy decison that the ref gave against England were actually the correct ones.

At one point he penalised the French for barging in the lineout, despite the replay showing no barging that I could see. The French DID jump across the gap because the ball was thrown in so crookedly. It should have been a French scrum. At the very next lineout he had the cheek to give a scrum against France for, yes, a crooked throw!

Complaints about the ref might serve a purpose and actually show how poor the standard is at the moment. If one single thing is killing the game it is the random interpretations the refs give between different games, competitions, hemispheres, even halves of the same game.

The french put 6 points on wales in cardiff and didn't look like losing. England lost by 2 points in paris and the game could have gone either way at any time.
The final table positions are an accurate reflection of the quality of the teams.

The problem with the refs is that there are simply too many offences for them to either see or call them all - if they called every offence there would hardly be a move made.

I think the answers are
1) two more officials on the field in each in goal area (or 2 TJs each side) - this would enable things to be policed better such as the offside line and scrum binding. The in goal judge each end could move up to halway if the play is at the other end - only one guy with a whistle but give the others flags like in american football.
2) some law changes - lineouts to remain stationary until the ball is in the air, scrums to go to progressive binding

backhander - Member
The french put 6 points on wales in cardiff and didn't look like losing. England lost by 2 points in paris and the game could have gone either way at any time.
The final table positions are an accurate reflection of the quality of the teams.

You've just had a go at anargallis about his shoulder chip - haven't you put yours away yet?

Put simply, France kicked the ball away at an 80 minute restart to stop Wales from running the ball back and winning the game. France AT THAT POINT were having big problems dealing with an attacking Welsh team - that's TJ's point that I was addressing.

Both Wales and England lost against France, agreed. By how many points is completely irrelevant, they both lost.

The final table rarely shows the quality of the teams other than the champion. Take last year as an example, in the final match Wales and Ireland played for the championship. In winning Wales would have won the championship, by losing they came 4th. How does that reflect the quality of any team?

I'm not sure what consolation you can possibly gain from saying that England finished 3rd, and Wales 4th - it was a poor championship for both teams, for different reasons.

This year England for the most part were dire, and were (partly) responsible for some of the worst rugby played in the history of the championship. They finished above Wales, fair enough, but I think Wales will be a little more comfortable going forward towards the WC than England, who appear to be without a rudder, paddle, wheel on their chariot, etc, etc.

I don't think I've heard a simgle positive comment from you despite the fact that they beat wales this year an have finished above them in the 6N for 2 years now

But wales are shit. England have lots of very good players as I said earlier they just lack the world class players to take them to the next level. Add a player like Jason Robinson and a Johnson and Hill and they would be a very good side, they just dont seem to have those players at the moment. Wales have a few stars, some good players and some very average ones, thats why england are curretly better most of the time, the average england players are better and theres more of them.

I think the answers are
1) two more officials on the field in each in goal area ([b]or 2 TJs each side[/b]) - this would enable things to be policed better such as the offside line and scrum binding. The in goal judge each end could move up to halway if the play is at the other end - only one guy with a whistle but give the others flags like in american football.

I dont think England ever looked like winning, just huffed and puffed and France looked comfortable. One great chance that Ashton blew badly, WTF did he have on his feet. England have got some good players but only Cueto is great in my humble opinion. They seem stuck with the idea of playing with forward dominance but havent got the forwards to do it. Front row is awful worst in the 6 nations, the back 3 are so inconsistent, but none of them make you sit up and take notice. Care is nothing special or he struggles for fast ball. It goes in phases, you cant be the best all the time.

I dont think Wales are shit, thats just a daft thing to say, can play the most exciting rugby you will ever see, apart from the French first 20 mins against Italy they have provided more thrills and spills than anyone else. The Scottish game was just incredible.

Hairychested - touch judges of course - there is only one real TJ

Idlejon, that is the biggest load of shite I've ever seen posted on this forum. You must be a smoking crack. I'm sure you must be trolling as nobody believes a word of that.
At least pigface knows what he's talking about (even if he's wrong :P).
The FACT is than at this moment in time of wales and england, england are the better team.

England the better team, lets just consider that, hmmmmm. No, nada, niet, nein, na, not in a month of dull Sundays. Sorry, move along there.

England were mince throughout the championship - Wales at lest were good in parts.

I believe thats Englands lowest points total and lowest try count in the 6N. A team that is less than the sum of its parts playing to an outmoded game plan.

Backhander with the greatest respect you are writing cheques your team cant cash 😉

My ending observations

France - easily the best team and real WC contenders. They sold them selves short yesterday but still won more comfortably than the 2 points would suggest

Ireland - Must be disappointed. Looked very stong coming in but somehow it just did not happen. If Sexton can improve his kicking (and I think he will) they are still capable of beating anyone

England - Truly, truly aweful at times. I am mystified by how a nation of such resources can be so poor. Johnson has to go. I actually think a humping in Paris may ultimately have served them better. ie MJ out and some new thinking in. Former strengths are now weaknesses (most of the pack!)

Wales - I love Welsh rugby, even if I hate the one eyed ness of much of the Welsh support. Some great moments in the 6N's and with a better lineout I think things may have been better for them. Potentially mouth watering back line.

Scotland - Coulda, shoulda, woulda yet again. Could and probably should have beaten England & Wales (Did not see the Italy game so cannot comment!). Some very promising signs if the limited resources are all fit. Best backrow since Calder, Jeffries & Turnbull

Italy - Get their clubs into the Magners. Beat Scotland, could have beaten England and did ok vs Ireland. Need a stronger feeder system (hence magners comment)

The FACT is than at this moment in time of wales and england, england are the better team.

At this moment? Erm not sure I reckon the Wales team that played Italy if it played England next week would have a very good chance of beating them..... well maybe not with Prydie..... but the point stands..... kind of. At least Wales have a settled looking first choice 15 and have a clear way forward (get them all fit at the same time) whereas who england will pick next is a mystery.

there is only one real TJ

[b][i]There can be only one![/i][/b]
[img] [/img]

(He wasn't a real Scotch person, either! 😉 )

That's as may be, Wales points diff was -4.
I'm very happy to provide a neutral reference to my claim;
http://www.irb.com/rankings/index.html
You'rs are? results matter in the real world
that's aside from the fact that england have beaten wales, and finished consistently above them for the last 4 odd years.
Just for rhys
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/match-centre_table.php
enjoy mate

omg you actually believe it!!!!!!! 😆

Yeah, because you know better 🙄

that's aside from the fact that england have beaten wales, and finished consistently above them for the last 4 odd years.

erm last year you lost in wales, year before wales won grandslam so I'm pretty sure you lost then, year before wales beat england 2006 wales got hammered, 2005 we won the grandslam again......... England are not very good and its hard to justify a conclusion that they are any better than wales currently

Well who cares if england is better than wales...
*/smug mode/*
Who wont the grandslam this year :p

Wales / England - - IMO England have been playing mediocre rugby for years - whereas Wales alternate between great and rubbish..Hard to say which is better really . Stodge all the time or Champagne one day and dogfood the next?

This is just ridiculous. Wales lost to england this year, england finished the table above wales. It really is [i]that[/i] simple.
And you [i]still[/i] maintain that wales are a better team? FFS
I sense some excuses coming (oh we had a bad game and france didn't let us finish waa waa waa).
Wales have finished higher than england in the 6N 3 times since 1991. Wales may have won some individual games but it's the [b]6[/b] nations.

Back hander as a neutral in the England / Wales debate I think your argument is at best weak.

I think in terms of winning head to heads (now - not over the last ~ 20 years) it could go either way but I would happily bet my money on a fully fit Welsh team and can say 100% that of the two they would easily be my preferred team to watch. Were any of the England games good spectacles? I did not see the Irish game so maybe that was? The others were dire.

It's a pity rugby was not played on paper as I think England could win that. Somehow MJ and co cannot make the sum of the parts work. As an English fan you must find that hugely frustrating?

I agree - who cares that England are better, on paper, than Wales.
I'd much rather watch Wales, than the England team of the first 4 games in the tournament.
In fact, I think I'd rather watch f%^&ing GOLF than the England team of the first 4 games!

I found myself not caring that England lost against France, just so [s]happy[/s] relieved that they weren't SHIT.

I second Dez's comment above.
The relief that England actually played rugby for once in this years 6N has comforted me greatly.

The irony of france playing a patient game in the rain, waiting and kicking the points or as they call it: [i]le jeu a l'anglaise[/i] shouldnt be taken for granted. That team are learning to graft a result rather than win with style and will be surely a big contender next year in NZ.

backhander - Member
This is just ridiculous. Wales lost to england this year, england finished the table above wales. It really is that simple.
And you still maintain that wales are a better team? FFS

[b]Wales have finished higher than england in the 6N 3 times since 1991.[/b]

Why stop at 1991? Shall we go back to 1970?

backhander, well done, you've cheered me up today, reading this. 😀

and also

juan - Member
Well who cares if england is better than wales...
*/smug mode/*
Who wont the grandslam this year :p

juan, that made me laugh as well.

Because that's how far back it goes on the 6N website
http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/match-centre_table.php
That's why.

I'm just being flippant! 😉

backhander, I think for your own mental health you need to embrace English rugby's crapness.