[Closed] 6 nations thread, let the arguments commence

ton - Member

this weekends predictions
france
ireland
england.

fingers crossed your predictions all work out bad.

I think poor Scotland will need more than Ton's amazing predictions!

Poor Ireland were robbed by incorrect reff'ing and an opportunistic stroke of luck from the Welsh.
Bit of a strange game, lots of handling and passing errors from two teams who don't usually make them.

I thought Wales did well to battle back from a poor start, Phillips I thought was out standing as was Warburton again. Phillips knew he'd cheated though, someone buy that ball boy an alcopop

Wales and Ireland both looked good when making attacking runs, only to make silly, basic errors that stopped the charge dead. Ireland turned over Wales a lot, that's going to be an area of concern for me next week.
Wales in Paris, will the French be fired up and hungry for blood or will they still be reeling in shock and under a new manager?

Wonder if Italy can do a number on Scotland next week?

those predictions were for the losing teams this weekend........ 😉

also, i hope darcy appears soon.........i am worried he may have topped himself, with the final result being settled by a blatant [s]cheat[/s] refereeing error........... 😆

I think DD is currently pee'ing over his neighbours leeks... 😀

Hey Ton dont give up the dayjob then 😉

Well done boys...just need Scotland to MTFU and do us a big favour tomorrow...nice tight game with lots of penalties will do!

Ref had some shockers both ways so cest la vie!

Hope the French crowd express their displeasure early doors next week could be a fun game with half the hairbear bunch back too....off for a few Welsh ciders now..reckon the Magners will be sour!

Scotland can't cross the tryline for love nor money whilst England have the best scoring record this yr. I actually want Scotland to give England a hard game because if it's a walkover then coming up against Ireland next week will come as a nasty shock!

I'm here ton, don't you worry.

I was actually at the game. It was indeed a poor game. Look, it was a loss by six points, a blatantly wrong decision by the ref...not a wooly decision at the breakdown, but a clear technical error by the officials. I didn't mind losing but it's shit to lose to a clear misinterpretation like that. The fact that it was the muppet Kaplan doesn't help either. Ah well.

As Kidney said, you see thousands of people losing their loved ones and homes today and I just can't really get that angry about a rugby game ton, much as you'd like me to. It just isn't that important this weekend.

dd, if you look at my post, i was joking mate. it is quite obvious.

i was joking mate

I know sweetie.

Get a room! 🙄

ton and dd
sitting in a tree
k
i
s
s
i
n
g
😀

The problem with ton is that he won't do tongues 🙁

adam played last week and duncan has been playing for ages but is not very good, he's about 4th choice loosehead for Wales and second choice for ospreys. French props are still beter though even if Gethin and Adam were both back.

Kaplin wasnt at fault for the try, he asked the touch judge if it was the same ball, touch judge said yes, he was rubbish in other areas but wasnt at fault for the try.

I don't think its relavent who's fault it was, the ref's decsion is final and once the try is given there is nothing any of us can do about it.

More importantly I think this tell's you everything you need to know:
Mike Phillips “It's something I can always cherish no matter what goes on in the future. I can look back on this day as a very special one for me.”

COME ON SCOTCHLAND

england look crap today.

scrappy game so far with some truely insiring cometry from Brian Moore 🙄

I swear Max Evans could win this game on his own.

Brilliant try, fantastic skill from Evans.

one of the worst games of rugby i have ever seen.
england were shyte, and scotland were a close 2nd.

ireland will hammer england if they play the same as today.

england look crap today.

but crap's good enough 😆

Scotland played out of their skins, England were a bit shakey, but they still won. Because England are (sadly) fundamentally a better side.

Crikey, that was made so tense by England's poor show. Not the sort of game you could watch twice!
Highlight was easily Patterson's tackle on Foden. Awesome.

awesome game, because we WON!!! yeah!
highlight of the game was Croft's try - shame there weren't any more Scotland players to run through like he did Parks - no-one was going to stop him.
the Calcutta Cup is ALWAYS a messy game, but that's what makes it great.
😀

Fantastic, another plucky defeat, God I'm bloody sick of those.

Whinge moan etc.

All I want now is for that team and drive to turn up next time against Italy and hopefully dodge the wooden spoon.

highlight of the game was Croft's try

So wrong....! It was either Paterson's try saving tackle or Evans with that delicious chip over the top. Both moments of true brilliance.

yeah, but those were by Scotland players, so not a highlight for me 😛

We wuz robbed!

A couple of reffing incidents made a big difference. Sin bin was harsh to say the last and the ref pulling a muscle when Scotland had one of their best attacks going! Never seen that before

Having said that England were clearly the better team apart from continually giving the ball away - that kept Scotland in the game

Finally Scotland turned up instead of the fumbling knock on brigade thats been at every other match so far, shame they couldn't pull it off, as that was truly the worst England performance so far in this 6 nations.........

Well done Italy but what is the problem with France, they bewilder me.

Ha ha what a great way to win a poor match aginst the paddies 😀 so lovely to be able to rub stampy Stringers nose in it.

Can someone explain some of the odd reffing decisions, Wales going forward in a maul as the player is held up, once by BOD holding his legs. Ref blows and awards scrum to Ireland even though Wales were advancing. Shouldnt the put in go to the team going forward?

Have had a miserable Sunday so missed the Calcutta calamity. Was it anygood?

Anyone see the Rebels game? Cippriani scored a blinding try followed up by some of the worst schoolboy errors I have ever seen.

Ref blows and awards scrum to Ireland even though Wales were advancing. Shouldnt the put in go to the team going forward?

No - in a maul its use it or lose it

Some 'amazing' refereeing decisions in all of this weekends games, but on the whole I think they evened out. Fair play to the Scots, they took the game to England and made them work for it. Contested every breakdown. Made for a scrappy game, not particularly appealing to watch, but thats the nature of the game.
Really happy to see the Italians beat someone other than Scotland too, does the STW rugby collective think Lievremont might be in trouble after this years tournament?

TJ - he was sin binned because he was warned about keeping his mouth shut a couple of times, the infringed in the red zone and was gone.

It wasn't a card offence really but he had got on the wrong side of the ref.

Scrappy performance by England and the Irish must fancy their chances now.

As an aside, is Scottish rugby doomed in the long term?

Edinburgh and Glasgow their only two professional teams and the traditional Scottish rugby hearltands in the borders now marginalsied.
Player pool down from 24,000 to 12,000 in barely over a decade, it doesn't look promising.

[i]So wrong....! It was either Paterson's try saving tackle or Evans with that delicious chip over the top. Both moments of true brilliance.[/i]

Definitely.
I'll add England's substitute centre squashing a forward, but that didn't end so well for the Scotland player. Banahan's a beast.

does the STW rugby collective think Lievremont might be in trouble after this years tournament?

I hope he is. Partly because of results but partly because of the press conference he gave where he totally blamed the players and appears to be going to drop the entire team for the Wales game..

bravohotel8er - Member

As an aside, is Scottish rugby doomed in the long term?

I hope not - there are signs of changes occuring.

The SRU have badly mismanaged things but its not beyond hope yet. IITC there is some new sponsership in place that should reduce the money problems and a change of attitude is appearing which will hopefully lead to a bit better promotion of the game north of the border

I'll add England's substitute centre squashing a forward, but that didn't end so well for the Scotland player. Banahan's a beast.

He led with the forearm and should be cited IMO, cowardly act, although the best moment of the game was england trying to add a bit of creativity in midfiled by replacing Tindal with Banahan 😆

Cueto looks like the best 13 in the squad and he's been playing left wing.

Ashton had another very poor performace too.

What about Phillips' hand-off to finish his dodgy try? It certainly was an excellent finish despite the illegality of the throw-in.

No complaints from me about Banahan / Brown. Browns technique was poor and Banahans arm just about acceptable

[i]He led with the forearm and should be cited IMO, cowardly act[/i]

Blimey, have you watched any of the Super 15s?!?

does the STW rugby collective think Lievremont might be in trouble after this years tournament?

Yep they had a right laugh about his comments on Scrum V last night...wouldn't be suprised if the French team aren't out on strike by Wednesday 😆

Agree Phillips handoff was class...he'll improve with this confidence booster

Banahan is anything but a beast - sometimes looks as if he can't be arsed, and close up is not as big as you'd think - although i've not told him that to his face. 😀

TandemJeremy - Member

The SRU have badly mismanaged things

How so?

muddydwarf - Member

Poor Ireland were robbed by incorrect reff'ing....

In the Scots/Ireland game, a Scottish prop was sent off for collapsing the scrum, despite it being the fault of the Irish flanker who was boring in on the props at 90 degrees. While the prop was off Ireland scored 7 points and won the game by a smaller margin.

So the ref basically gave Ireland the game by not applying the law correctly.

What goes around.......

Add in the forward pass (I counted two) in the run up to England's dodgy try v Scotland and you have three games in the last two weekends of rugby which were won because of poor refereeing, two of the results going against Scotland.

Strangely though Scotland aren't complaining like that whinging idiot O'Driscoll!

Cippriani scored a blinding try followed up by some of the worst schoolboy errors I have ever seen.

I didn't see the game, but every time I watch Cipriani I wait for some consistent genius. And I get disappointed every time. One of the most over-rated players I've ever seen.

Well credit to Scotland for taking the game to England. They wouldn't do anything less would they? Scotland ALWAYS lift themselves for that game.

In world terms, you could argue that NZ are, maybe, 10pts better than England and about 30pts better than Scotland but that evaporates come Calcutta Cup time.

MJ said before the season that, based on their defensive abilities, he reckoned England needed to score 20pts to win 6N games and 26-27pts to beat the SH sides. Seems about right so far.

Dunno about all the fuss over ref decisions. I thought one of the beauties of rugby was respect for the referee. They can't get it right all the time and the Philips try was down to the linesman anyway. A ref can't be level with every pass thrown so he'll never spot all the marginal forward passes. JUst coz we have multi angle replays of everything now doesn't excuse all the moaning.

Cipriani did score a brilliant try (that no other English fly-half could) and did throw a bad pass to ultimately concede a score. He's still worth a place in the RWC as 3rd fly-half/fullback cover.

[i]Dunno about all the fuss over ref decisions. I thought one of the beauties of rugby was respect for the referee. They can't get it right all the time
[/i]

The problem is that in the NH the refs are getting it wrong so often, and the decisions are decisively affecting the results of the games.

Having watched rugby for several decades now, I can't remember a period of time when so many games are won on poor reffing decisions. This 6N will be Englands because other teams are taken out of the running by the ref.

I'm quite happy to take a Welsh win, and even more amused when the constantly cheating Irish complain about other teams cheating.

BUT reffing decisions will consign Scotland to the bottom of the table, with the attendant loss of money and sponsorship that goes along with a wooden spoon. That in turn affects players and coaches and to a certain extent will turn spectators away from those games. A vicious circle.

Last weekend in the Super15, the refs had been told to penalise props who put their hand down in the scrum. WHY? Seriously, why? How badly does that affect the game when the three professional officials can't spot blatant forward passes, knock-ons, high tackles, sealing off at breakdowns.....

Why don't they stop fussing about things like 'Crouch.....pause....touch..' and start concentrating on the basics of the games instead.

Scotland never really looked like winning the match - look at the stats for defenders beaten and metres run. It wasn't the refs de3cisions tha cost Scotland., Scotland also got away with a few things as well. There is simply so much happening on a rugby field that refs will miss things

My solution is for top level games have five officials not 3. One ref 4 assistants and it means that the ref no longer has to manage offside and forward passes - there should be an assistant for that always leaving the ref to watch the breakdown. Flags to throw on the field like american football.

Also at scores refs should be able to go back and check for forward passes / obstruction / offside if wanted like in rugby league. Doesn't take any longer.

Ref decisions will not consign Scotland to the bottom of the pile. If Scotland played against the other nations like they played against England then maybe they would have won some matches.

Some points:

1. Barclay got himself sent off for whining at the ref for the entire match and then committing a deliberate foul in the red zone. Ref got fed up with him, if anything his team mates should be pissed off with him.

2. Scotland came with a game plan of slowing down the ball at the breakdown. They did this very well. A Southern Hemisphere ref would have awarded many penalties against them for this, at Twickenham, they got away with out. (Robinson was a master at this). If there is any criticism of the ref is that he let them get away with it.

3. The Scots are blaming the ref for getting an injury during one of their attacks. I suspect the ref is none too happy about the injury, but having got the injury he had to blow the whistle

4. If the IRB are going to cite Banahan for the forearm then I suspect that we will end up with mass citings per match. Most NZ players do it, most SA do it and it is very common on the UK & I.

5. There are always passes that have gone forward - live with it. Matches have been won because of it. Refs do well to catch the majority of the offences. The mass TV audience have the advantage of multiple camera angles and slow mo.

England were rubbish yesterday, but at least came to attack. Scotland came with a game plan to defend, slow the ball down and see if they could steal the match. It almost worked.

Scotland now need to build on this performance and play better at home vs Italy. Take the foot off the pedal and France won't be the only team to lose to Italy this year.

On second look I take back what I said about Banahans forearm , he didnt lead with it.

Oh holy Jeebus...let's consider a scenario...England win a game at the millinimum by scoring a try similar to that scored by Wales on Saturday. I can tell you we'd be waiting till next year's competition to hear the end of it.

...constantly cheating Irish...

Strangely though Scotland aren't complaining like that whinging idiot O'Driscoll!

Constantly cheating? You're getting a bit carried away on the crest of a victory there aren't you? I'm not complaining about the Welsh player actually trying the quick throw-in. It's likely that in the heat of the moment, he didn't realise he was committing an offence, but the ref and the touch judges between them should have known that it wasn't a try. I can't understand anyone gloating over a win where an illegal try is scored - the bigger guy takes the win quietly and is thankful for his luck.

Idiot? You're losing the run of yourself now. He was asked for his comments and they were fairly measured given the nature of the silly error the ref had just made.

It's likely that in the heat of the moment, he didn't realise he was committing an offence

fairly sure Phillips knew what he was doing judging by him looking to the ref after scoring.

personally i think BoD was pretty restrained considering.
Mind you, given the years of whinging we've heard from certain Irish quarters about the 'hand of Back' i reckon we've at least a decade of grumpiness from the Irish over this one! 😛

fairly sure Phillips knew what he was doing judging by him looking to the ref after scoring.

Fair enough, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Mind you, given the years of whinging we've heard from certain Irish quarters about the 'hand of Back'

Well, since the two Heineken cups, we've kinda got over that - coupled with giving the tiggers a few lessons since, one in their own back yard being particularly sweet.

Fair enough, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

First lesson in team games, play to the ref's whistle. If the ref didn't see it it didn't happen.

[i]On second look I take back what I said about Banahans forearm , he didnt lead with it.[/i]

It doesn't matter - if you start whinging about challenges like that in rugby, you're watching the wrong sport.

Am off to Edinburgh for the weekend with friends to watch the Italy game. 8)

Any recommendations for somewhere in central Edinburgh to watch the 2 later games? Food & beer & view of telly required.

With regard to the 3 matches this past weekend, it was great to see Italy turn over France but I fear a wounded beast when the boys travel to Paris to face Les Bleus. The Wales-Ireland game could have gone either way, regardless of the controversial try. England-Scotland was low on quality but compelling viewing nonetheless. Has the error count across the tournament been high this year? Seems so.

It doesn't matter - if you start whinging about challenges like that in rugby, you're watching the wrong sport.

I suppose your much tougher in the way you watch rugby then 🙄 .

Far too many cheap shots are put down to toughness. If banahan was tough he'd have dropped the nut on him like Chabal did on that kiwi 😆

go to about 1min 50

On another note despite me wanting to see Italy win, I cannot stand Bergamasco he is a dirty sod.

I see Lievremont has dropped six players from the French squad, Chabal amongst them. Wonder if he'd call them cowards to their faces? 😯 😆

I can't see how Lievremont can continue now, he's not only lost the dressing room but he's lost the plot too. Can anyone see the French squad wanting to perform for him now?
Only 4 months out from the WC too...

Toulouse boss Guy Novès, Europe's most successful club coach, has not minced his words in assessing Marc Lièvremont's tenure as France's national coach.

In the wake of France's historic defeat in Rome last Saturday and Lièvremont's criticism of his players, questions over the condition in which France will arrive at the World Cup abound.

For Novès, the French coaching staff - Lièvremont and assistants Didier Retiere and Emile Ntamack - have never displayed a coherent plan and their inexperience is now being exposed.

"If you review the last four year, is there a common thread between the first, second, third and fourth year?" questioned the Toulouse manager, who is a former French international himself and has led Toulouse to nine French championships and four Heineken Cup titles.

"You don't get the feeling of coherence.

"I've got the impression that the team has changed direction because the staff were busy gaining experience, but you don't become a great coach in four years.

"What experience did the staff have before starting in the French national team?

"Everyone is in a state of uncertainty. When Marc Lièvremont says that he's going back to square one, that's effectively what you feel. You have the impression that what has been done in the past three and a half years amounts to nothing.

"The responsibility lies with those who appointed him. When they did it they should have been able to say he was the man for the job.

"What really bothers me is that he always blames someone else. Before it was a physical problem, now we're talking about technical problems."

On Sunday, Lièvremont dropped six players from his squad including Toulousains Clément Poitrenaud and Yannick Jauzion. While Novès admits Poitrenaud didn't have a great Six Nations, he has backed Jauzion to bounce back.

"It was a little harder for Yannick, who was told that his Test career is over. Maybe this coach is very close to the end of his coaching career and that Yannick will become an international again under his successor," quipped the Toulouse boss.

no doubt all this will lead to wales being minced on saturday 😥

I expected the Scottish lineout to pose problems for England's. As it transpired it was the opposite :-(. Ford had a mare and I think that was key. Interestingly I thought his game in the loose was his best in a long time

It was also interesting to see how much stronger the Scottish scrum was with Cross on. Better set piece possesion and Scotland may well have won.

In the end the better team won though world beaters they are not.

The Welsh try was embarassing for the officials and for Wales. They cheated and I don't believe it was in the heat of the moment.

France / Italy. Well done Italy but France are simply perplexing!!!

Based on the game I saw, Scotland should have won it, but on the day we didn't. They turned up with the right game to beat England, who simple were too slow on the ball most of the time allowing the Scots defence to get up, and didn't bother to clear out the rucks, presumably hoping the ref would do it for them. We seemed to be able to turn the ball over in rucks almost at will (well, at will given how one sided in favour of the ball carrying team rucks are these days).

England's try had a couple of forward passes in it - it happens. Referees don't have multiple camera shots to catch that sort of thing. But fourth officials of course do, and the ref asked the fourth official about the Scots try (why I don't know) but not the English one. Pity given that the fourth official would have given the game to Scotland if asked.

And Banahan - he'd have walked if I'd been refereeing - he knew exactly what he was doing raising his arm like that.

Banahan is a thug. I tend to agree re the leading with the arm. Not nice.

Now then, about the Wales try. There is one fact which you cannot deny - It was a try. The referee said so. The scorecard said so. Move on.

Now, on to next week....! Marathon three in a row, followed by an early flight the next day! Great....

Italy v Scotland - I'd love to see Italy edge it!

Ireland v England - I'd love to see Ireland edge it. With a try scored after an obvious forward pass. Cue much munching on humble pie! 😉

France v Wales - France will stroll this one, sadly. Lievremont may be an idiot, but his players are superb. They really are too good to be that bad again. Aren't they? ......

Now then, about the Wales try. There is one fact which you cannot deny - It was a try. The referee said so. The scorecard said so. Move on.

Hypocrisy: See above 🙂

😆

CFH - Agree the Irish need now to move on from the Wales try incident

Done and dusted.

Part of me thinks Wales will get thumped next w/e. Part of me thinks France will go into melt down and Wales will thump them. How's that for fence sitting?

What odds a Celtic triple victory?

France v Wales - France will stroll this one, sadly

Don't think so. Can't see the French team being up for it, myself.

Now then, about the Wales try. There is one fact which you cannot deny - It was a try. The referee said so. The scorecard said so. Move on.

CFH is correct, the ref's decision is final. I'm gutted about it and would love the powers at be to change the rules and remove the try and conversion retrospectively, but it's not going to happen, move on.

sadmadalan

2. Scotland came with a game plan of slowing down the ball at the breakdown. They did this very well. A Southern Hemisphere ref would have awarded many penalties against them for this, at Twickenham, they got away with out. (Robinson was a master at this). If there is any criticism of the ref is that he let them get away with it.

I just watched the game again.

Edit - those 4 - Gray , Vernon, Ford and Barclay. Any of the England forwards as quick?

Scotland did not go to slow england ball down - they went to compete at the breakdown - a subtle and important difference

So many of the breakdowns you say 2 or 3 Scotland players in there legally rucking for the ball. They were not diving in off their feet all the time or handling in rucks - but they were there to legally compete for the ball because of the game plan and most importantly the speed of the forwards. As well as Barclay and Brown (Vernon) Scotland had Ross Ford and most importantly Ritchie Gray getting stuck in and taking the ball off them.

Huge numbers of turnovers to scotland and not all from England errors is the only thing that kept Scotland in the game

Its a lesson teams keep giving England and will continue to do so - you must be quick to the breakdown and secure your ball. You cannot get away with a load of immobile forwards.

Now then, about the Wales try. There is one fact which you cannot deny - It was a try. The referee said so. The scorecard said so. Move on.

Can't deny this. Still doesn't mean we can't bang on and on about the Welsh being cheats. 😉

I was always worried about the Scotland game, they lift themselves so much to play the English. I'm pleased that the guys could grind out the win, don't really care that it had to be an ugly win.
Now bring on the Irish in their silly 3 sided stadium, and the Slam. 😛

igm - Member

And Banahan - he'd have walked if I'd been refereeing - he knew exactly what he was doing raising his arm like that.

I don't get that - you'd have sent him off for using his power and weight for running over another bloke of similar size? 😕

Suppose you'd have sent off Jonah Lomu too? (mind you, would've been handy in the 1995 RWC semi-final 🙂 )

TandemJeremy - Member

Gray , Vernon, Ford and Barclay. Any of the England forwards as quick?

Tom Croft is quicker than all the Scottish forwards and probably most of the backs. At Leicester he was the second fastest player in the squad behind only Tom Varndell, who's now at Wasps and is probably the fastest player in the Premiership. Haskell is hardly slow and he played well too. It's not just foot speed that gets you to the breakdown though, it's speed of thought and intent as well. That's where Scotland excelled.

Actually TJ, all of what you say is right (how often does one say that? 😉 ). Scotland came to compete at the breakdown and really did well. England need to be stronger in that area although they're handicapped by players like Hape who have no clue what to do and also by the lack of a genuine openside. Lawes and Croft will add some mobility however.

[i]And Banahan - he'd have walked if I'd been refereeing - he knew exactly what he was doing raising his arm like that.[/i]

Jeez, no wonder I normally avoid rugby threads.

I read in the paper the other day some of the players think Croft is the fastest in the squad, period. Apparently during training Ashton, who to be fair is not actually that quick in out right pace, tried to take Croft on the outside and lost.

I can name one player who is quicker than Varndell though 8)

Best thing about the Wales ireland games was seeing 4 or 5 irish forwards in a ruck waiting for the ball to come back when all the welsh players were lined up waiting patiently to tackle them if the irish ever managed to get the ball out of a ruck they were only competiting with themseleves for the ball in

England need to have more New Zealanders playing for them, although they're helped by players like Hape

FTFY

Scamper - Member

I read in the paper the other day some of the players think Croft is the fastest in the squad, period.

David Strettle is apparently the quickest player in the Elite squad, followed by Joe Simpson (scrum half).

I can name one player who is quicker than Varndell though

In the premiership or just in general?

Ngwenya looks the quickest I've seen although Toderai Chavanga is supposedly the best sprinter. CauCau must be amazingly quick coz even though he's about four stone overweight he still hauls ass 😯

Now, if we're talking quick rugby players, it shall come to pass that someone shall mention Nigel Walker. And I just did.