[Closed] 40mph plan for country roads

So why not fix the cause, rather than the symptom?

ban cars altogether ?

i'm up for it.

Why is it safe for some one of average driving skill to do 70 mph on a motorway without a care in the world, yet wrong for some one to do 70 mph on a country road paying attention.

Really?

When I'm El Presidente glorious leader for life, I'd Fit all cars with GPS speed limiters and ban car makers from selling road legal cars capable of more than the NSL...
And ban all the silly toys of distraction that modern cars are filled with..it's a car! Not a mobile office, cinema and telecommunication centre..no wonder people get distracted..
😀

Oh, and I've driven that Rannoch Mor road plenty of times and you're kidding yourself if you think 80-100mph is a suitable speed down there.

This depends on what you are driving, rot box mk1 Micra (yes it's an ironic choice) maybe not, but in a modern sports saloon it [b]may[/b] be possible to do it safely.

A modern sports saloon may make it safer for the driver but not much difference to other road users.

[i]A modern sports saloon may make it safer for the driver but not much difference to other road users. [/i]

AA - have you actually ever driven? Of course it will make a difference, as the car is operating well within its parameters, unlike an old/small car which would be at 10/10ths.

I would urge people who are in favour of 20mph limits being stretched out to obscene distances to visit Norway.

Never have I wanted not to drive so badly in my whole life. Everywhere you go (except toll roads) there are mad low speed limits, and they are in-forced ruthlessly (which they really are not around here, I might see a speed camera wagon once or twice a month?) which means everyone commits suicide before they actually complete their journey. This is very dangerous for other road users as the driver less cars just plough into people**

**ok so a tad exaggerated and borderline offensive. But the point stands, what happens when you extend town limits (20 & 40mph buffer zones) is more often than not, drivers (whoever they are) feel like they are loosing time by adhering to the limits, so whilst yes, they may not be 'speeding', they are driving more aggressively in that area.

I'll make an example. You are turning right out of a side road onto an A road with a 40mph extended limit (when it used to be 60mph) just outside of a towns 30mph limit. You will find it VERY difficult to get out now, as the cars are all bunched up, as they are trying not to loose any more time/any other cars/road users into their space. Vs. before the limit was lowered, yeah you get some people pulling away fast from the 30mph zone, but generally there will be MORE SAFE GAPS IN TRAFFIC TO PULL OUT INTO.
And that actually a fact, highways agency have done many studies on the subject, I read it somewhere that wasn't a newspaper 😉

AA - have you actually ever driven? Of course it will make a difference, as the car is operating well within its parameters, unlike an old/small car which would be at 10/10ths.

you could be driving a Ferrari with the combined skills of Colin Mcrae and Aryton Senna but you still cannot account for the unexpected as well as you could at 60mph and as importantly others are not usualy expecting someone to be doing 120 on a public road.

The bit I still don't get is this: "NSL means drive to the conditions, not 60 everywhere"

We all know this, and we should be able to judge conditions well enough without a little sign and the threat of three points because a road has bends.

I used to do 60mph in a crappy little Fiesta in places I won't do 60mph now in a much better modern car.

This depends on what you are driving, rot box mk1 Micra (yes it's an ironic choice) maybe not, but in a modern sports saloon it may be possible to do it safely.

As a_a suggested, safely for who? It's a very popular spot with photographers and walkers/tourists, the are a few unofficial parking spots (where cars might stick out into the road a bit). I've walked along that stretch and it doesn't feel very wide or safe with cars whizzing past at 60, let alone 100.

A 19 year old girl from the next town along from me was killed on my commute road a couple of months back. Single vehicle accident, she just went off on a corner, likely took it too fast. That's the third death on that road since I moved to a rural town 3 years ago. I can't help thinking she might still be here if there had been a 40 sign on that corner.

I saw the imbecile from some "motorists group" or other on BBC news this morning, shooting down his own credibility by saying that if a person does 50, and the person behind them gets impatient and passes somewhere daft causing an accident, it's the fault of the person doing 50. It beggars belief !

So yes I think there should be more 40mph sections on rural roads, in fact they have put one in at Leadburn junction finally ! It only took an accident every month for common sense to dawn...

double post - internet broke

I can't help thinking she might still be here if there had been a 40 sign on that corner.

Well, yes I do think she might have slowed down for a 40 sign, she was a new driver according to the local paper.

There are 40 signs for trucks on the road from Glencoe to Fort William. Always get stuck behind folk that see the 40 but don't realise it's for trucks...

maccruiskeen - Member

There sort of already is a 40mph limit, anything over 3.5t should already be travelling at a max 40mph on any single carriageway.

Nope. 50mph up to 7.5t

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Roadsafetyadvice/DG_178867?CID=TAT&PLA=url_mon&CRE=speed_limits

I think what would save a LOT of lives/incidents would be better car control from the test.

Iceland/Finland (and probably many others) have proper extended tests that cover many aspects of car control in all weathers. I've seen SO many accidents where kids in small FWD car's have over cooked it into a fast A-road corner (that a loaded 42t artic could take at the same speed/same conditions and be OK), feel it go a bit loose, then lift off or worse, brake, then spin it to inside of corner, often overturning it, and often slamming into oncoming traffic with disastrous results.

And that happens at LEAST twice a year on the road I use every day, its got one of the BEST surfaces of any road around, its an A road, it has mostly excellent viability and sign age, and was reduced to a blanket 50mph about 5years ago. Yet the accidents deaths are at least the same (certainly no fewer deaths, but it does feel like it has gone up if anything?), and I would say every time, itst he age old FWD lift off oversteer at work and young/inexperienced school run drivers who simply do not know what to do in that situation.

I feel a decent two day car handling course (could be done in groups like the motorbike tests are done) on old airfields etc would at least make more people aware of what a car does when it breaks free, or at least make people aware what NOT to do in certain situations. If done properly it wouldn't even be very expensive to operate.

Just to add, Finland/Iceland have predominantly gravel roads, often with appalling weather and for the most part they drive pretty much the same car's as we have in the UK, save snow tyres in winter, and more open treaded gravel tyres the rest of the year round. The times I've been to both countries I would say my road car skills are good enough (used to have a race license, and have several dozen hours of stage rallying under my belt), and even in a decent car, I'll be put firmly in my place by the school run parent pretty much drifting a stock 30yr+ volvo/saab (with NO dents/scrapes/moose prints in the bonnet) around in total confidence. Goes to show!

Unless you drive on the country roads everyday there is no way to know the bend and the condition of the roads. Yet, some may drive on the country road as if they were on M-way and that is where the trouble starts.

I was taking my driving lesson recently where I saw a lady pushing the pram straight onto the zebra crossing without any care in the world. Yes, the traffic should stop at the zebra crossing for her to cross but then there is always a chance that some may not see her. I was rather far away so not a problem as I saw her but she gave me the shivers by expecting traffic to see her ... 😯

Also at some housing estates why on earth do people think that just because there is a 20mph limit they can walk across the road whenever they like?

They site the number of road deaths on country roads as the reason for the proposed reduction in speed limit, but I bet not even half of the accidents reported occurred within the 60mph speed limit, so i refuse to see how people would obey an even lower one!

I think there should be an option to sit a harder driving test and pay higher road tax and insurance, with more stringent M.O.T standards just to be allowed to drive faster...

Well, yes I do think she might have slowed down for a 40 sign, she was a new driver according to the local paper.

Are you saying there weren't warning signs suggesting that the upcoming corner would be sharp?

Besides which, we have signs suggesting max safe speeds. No need for actual limits in situations where an advisory 40mph would suffice.

The Southern Yeti - Member

I find driving at 40 on rural roads sooooo boring. I find it hard to stay awake.

get drunk - it makes it more interesting

Hilldodger - you need to look up hypocrisy in your dictionary 🙂

What you accuse me of may be wrong in your eyes - but it is not what I do nor is it hypocrisy

Still - never let the truth get in the way of you giving me a slagging eh? 🙂

zokes - Member

Are you saying there weren't warning signs suggesting that the upcoming corner would be sharp?

eerrrrmmm ... for inexperience drivers and with speed they get the tunnel vision so what signs?

Besides which, we have signs suggesting max safe speeds. No need for actual limits in situations where an advisory 40mph would suffice.

If only the drivers could take note of traffic signs otherwise the signs are just signs ... no information taken in.

Grum and A_A the emboldened "may" qualified my remark implying safer for all under certain conditions only not at all times.

Also at some housing estates why on earth do people think that just because there is a 20mph limit they can walk across the road whenever they like?

They are pedestrians and they have the right of way at all times especially near their homes. Remember as drivers we are licensed to use the roads we are not there as a right.

I've seen SO many accidents where kids in small FWD car's have over cooked it into a fast A-road corner...then spin it to inside of corner, often overturning it, and often slamming into oncoming traffic with disastrous results

Have you really? Really really?

on the subject of speed limit enforcement, are'nt all 'modern' cars fitted with some kind of 'black box' type tacograph computers along with the engine management gizmos?

i vaguely recall mention of an rta in the news where the drivers conviction was upheld on the basis of the data from said 'black-box'.

the interesting twist to the story was that had he bought the british version of the car, the black-box would have been de-activated.

though, because he was driving the usa version where, i guess, such devices have to be fully operational, he ended being done for said rta.

maybe with black-boxes de-activated, its easier for the govt. to secure finance from speed cameras?

or maybe a law will be passed to make them operational?

eerrrrmmm ... for inexperience drivers and with speed they get the tunnel vision so what signs?

I think you may need a few more lessons yet 😯

Also, how would you see the mandatory 40 signs?

anagallis_arvensis - Member

I've driven over the Rannoch Moor road many times, not done it on my motorbike. Thing is no matter how good TJ's eyesight is he cannot see the unexpected and when the unexpected happens and your on a public road others are put at risk.

this is nonsense - you can see for miles, nothing much on the roadside to conceal stuff. As a defensive rider you are looking for the unexpected all the time constantly scanning for hazards potential and real - and if there are no other vehicles around how am I putting others at risk?

It can be perfectly safe to do 100+ mph in the right place and time. It can be very dangerous to ride even below the speed limit in the wrong place and time.

BTW - this sign is the GLF sign
[img] [/img]
Go Like Flip

Bloody good idea.
If you want to be some where earlier, start earlier. It will save fuel for a start and I am slowly beginning to feel that that is a responsibility we all need.
Why do we have that mnoronic need to do everything faster? There was nowt wrong with writing a letter, rather than sending atext or waiting a few days rather than getting something through the door tomorrow.
As for saving lives. That has 2 sides. If it stop just one death to a 3rd party caused by some one going to fast for their own limitations then thats great.
Killing yourself is fair enough , infact tough luck .
Having said all of that though a government based in a city has no right to dictate to rural dwellers, just as city dwellers have no right to dictate . Of course that works the other way as well. I care nowt about what what happens in London for example.

this is nonsense - you can see for miles, nothing much on the roadside to conceal stuff. As a defensive rider you are looking for the unexpected all the time constantly scanning for hazards potential and real - and if there are no other vehicles around how am I putting others at risk?

I have driven the Rannoch road a few years ago and although its a long empty straight I would never feel safe from deer at say,70mph +. Yes its a 170mph motorbike stretch but I would never feel safe even around 80-90mph.
In a modern car with lots more stopping power than a bike I still wouldn't feel safe on that road at 80-90mph in daylight(with deer in mind). They appear from nowhere. A big stag will be more visible but the young deer can just come in to view at the last minute. Scanning around 50ft in off the road left and right is a mare once you get up to speed. The brain can't cope with looking out for deer as well as looking at the road in front of you*. At speeds above the limit its impossible to keep an eye on everything as much as you need to (to be 100% safe from animals running out)
Infact.. why a freekin deer?! Hitting a badger that's just been spooked by 13k revs on a motorbike will still take you out.

*but I have to admit that I often do night rides on the motorbike down Loch Ness,maybe head towards Skye and do a loop over to Glen Garry and back home again. Sometimes in the daylight I'll ride a stretch slow and have a look out for deer before doubling back for another crack at it 8)

If you own a motorbike and have driven the road between Invermorriston and kyle of Lochalsh you'll know what the road is like a few miles either side of the Cluanie Inn ;O) As far as deer are concerned I reckon I'd be the first one on STW to have one take me out on the bike so.. aye,nice knowing you's and wish me luck on my night rides!

(didn't come to this thread to preach or argue.. just tell the truth)

edit: maybe I was preaching?!

and if there are no other vehicles around how am I putting others at risk?

So the presence of other vehicles is the only way you could be putting others at risk along that stretch (which as I said above is popular with sightseers, walkers and photographers)? Just shows you have really thought through the possible hazards and are alert to all potential risks doesn't it. 🙄

Blowout? with tubeless tyres with sealant in? 🙂 Expensive high quality ones with more than 3 mm tread?

the simple point is that 100+ mph on rannoch moor is no more dangerous than 50 mph on the south loch earn road for example or the wee mad road in inverpolly. All have 60 limits. Rannoch moor is as safe at well above the speed limit than the other two are at well under the speed limit.

But then - as we know from numerous threads on here most people have no idea how to judge risk ( believing cycling to be dangerous for example) and have no idea about safety and certainly cannot distinguish between passive and active safety.

I am living proof it is not dangerous - I am still alive as are many of my friends - and 100+ mph on rannoch moor is commonplace ( or used to be until they put the stealth cop bikes on it 🙂 )

I am living proof it is not dangerous

Oh dear oh dear oh dear. If someone else tried to use that ridiculous anecdotal statement as 'evidence' you would be the first to shoot them down.

In my youth I've drunk driven a fair few times - presumably that's not dangerous either then as I never crashed.

lol

the simple point is that 100+ mph on rannoch moor is no more dangerous than 50 mph on the south loch

You really do come out with some utter rubbish TJ.

I am living proof it is not dangerous - I am still alive as are many of my friends - and 100+ mph on rannoch moor is commonplace ( or used to be until they put the stealth cop bikes on it )

Martinxyz - nonsense - you can see the deer easily and I would be scanning far further than you say. They do not appear from nowhere. Nothing appears from no where if yo are riding properly and paying attention. Just because you cannot do it does not mean its impossible

Oh - and a bike will stop as well as a car - and once again you show your limitations and believe they apply to all.

So yes - you are not telling the truth - you are extrapolating your experience to others - its your opinion and as from previous thread you do not understand the correct lines to take when cornering and do not understand how to maximise sightlines so anything you say about bikes is suspect at best.

Grand fishing on stw petrol head threads.

Let's compare for a moment TJs apoplectic rage about people anti-socially biking on Ben Nevis with his own anti-social speeding or RLJing habits.

Hypocritical? Bizarre double-standard/'rules' which only apply to other people? Surely not.

so anything you say about [s]bikes[/s] anything is suspect at best.

Don simon -= do you know the roads in question?

rannoch moor is well surfaced, wide and with visibility of miles, south loch earn is tight twisty adn badly surfaced with visibility in yards. both 60 mph limits, 60 mph almost impossible on one and easily exceeded on the other

Jeremy,when I bought that bike of mine I drove it home from Killin to Aberfeldy then on to the A9. The bike had approx 120bhp more than my previous bike and the roads were wet with leaves. I found out when I got it home that the tyres were around 20psi! A slow,scary and dangerous first ride. Not sure what the Loch Earn road is like (just looked on the map as I thought it might have been the road that I took the bike home on)

My RLJ or speeding has never inconvenienced anyone. This is a simple truth. the bogtrotters on the Ben did - and apoplectic rage? get a grip.

Don simon -= do you know the roads in question?

I am really amused by the accusations of hypocrisy. Do you guys not understand what it means?

My attitude is all about the effects on others. the boggies on the Ben inconvenienced loads of folk, my speeding and occasional RLJing inconvenienced no one.

Well that previous post was not hunting for anything,just being chatty. No need to get bitchy and bring up a whole heap of stuff and pile it on me when its others that are getting yer blood boiling.

Blood boiling - ? I am laughing at them.