[Closed] 27.5/Dirt a bit biased?

He has been for ages now. Does me nut in... 🙄

Yeah, even Pagey who has a vested interest in selling his 27.5 inch bikes seems a bit uncomfortable over the issue.

I don't have a problem with it for the general public, never tried it, but if it is actually faster, at some point all the racers will be on it and then its back to square one, advantage is removed, except they are all riding clunkier big wheels.

For a while Jones was very anti 27.5

If we assume that newer bikes are faster (and looking at a modern bike v a 10 year old one they probably are) then new 27.5 bikes will be faster than old 26 bikes
And even nico reckonned big wheels = faster in races

Ultimately his favourite bike is a 29er anyway

His obsession with bikes for taller riders is just silly tho

He's well and truly drunk the kool-aid... the last issue was hilarious, telling world cup racers how they'd be faster on 650b. Between that, and obsessing about how big XL bikes are... Well, it's a strange development from The Man Who Cannot State A Clear Opinion 😆

I watched about half that video last night, interested to find out more about NP's take on 650b for DH.

Did they reach a conclusion in the end? Pagey just kept saying "we haven't tested them yet", with Jones saying "yeah, but they'll be faster won't they?". I got fed up and stopped watching. It was a bit awkward.

Will there be another instalment when they have tested them against the 26in bikes?

So many questions.

Not just Dirt.

What MTB are the worst.
A couple of unbelievably patronising pro 650B articles by Jo Burt and Matt Letch, people I previously had much respect for, has put me off both the mag and the authors.

This issue has really changed my opinion of the MTB media.
Previously, I was a generally a believer in the impatiality of our magazines.

I don't believe a word they say anymore.

Some interesting comments by Jenn in her pick of the year article on here as well.

the fact is even if 27.5 was better, it's corporate marketing and bullshit like this from people who supposedly know they're onions and from sponsored riders who are told what to say that just makes me very cynical about the whole thing.

Steve Jones can love it or loath or even something else.

What I'd prefer they did do is stop skimping on content/mag-thickness.

Its insulting. Maybe they get coffee-table types nowadays but wheres the bloody VFM?

I'm not even sure why Steve actually posted the video, it does neither his reputation or the industries reputation any good.

MBR had a good one this month too, testing the 650b Orange Five vs a 26er. The geometry on the two is night and day, so naturally they ride differently, but all the good stuff ends up attributed to the wheels.

Surely at world cup level, there's a need for the max suspension travel that you can get.
10" seems fairly common.
With a 27.5 wheel, are they going to have to have 9" of travel?
How do they judge the balance?

Yes, the interview was annoying - Pagey doing well to not fall for it.

What's even funnier is that yet unamed 650b downhill bike is actually a Mega AM with an angleset and a 175mm boxxer.

The journo's, especially in WMB, were just as evangelistic / arse-lickingly nauseous with 29'rs a few year's ago. And I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that I let that be the main reason I decided not to go 29, so I relate to the various reluctance to embrace 650B when such is occurring again.

It strikes me of trying too hard to brown-nose their way to a 'press camp' or media launch, or looking to find another job within the industry.

Its their job, apparently 😕

That pukenroof is one fugly bike.

AlexSimon - Member

Surely at world cup level, there's a need for the max suspension travel that you can get.

You'd think so, but Aaron Gwin says he didn't use the full travel of his bike once in the 2012 season, and despite comments at the time, his stiff setup isn't actually uncommon.

Tom_W1987 - Member
What's even funnier is that yet unamed 650b downhill bike is actually a Mega AM with an angleset and a 175mm boxxer.

well it does seem to imply they are looking to PMB, a course that has seen a lot of AM kit on it because it has some pedally bits, dropper posts etc

brendog tweeted recently about using a genius LT there
[img] [/img]

The Man Who Cannot State A Clear Opinion

Is that because of the appalling standard of his written English, especially for one who makes his living as a journalist?

AlexSimon - Member
Surely at world cup level, there's a need for the max suspension travel that you can get.
10" seems fairly common.

Only the V10 really, and that's really progressive, you'd have to hit the ground hard to bottom those last 2" out. Most are 8" or thereabouts, and the chainstay length is long enough already to accomodate the 'big' wheels.

I guess - there's quite a few of these pics that couldn't accommodate any more though:
http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-2013-Andorra-World-Cup,5646/20-Full-Squish-Photos-G-Out-Project-Andorra-World-Cup-Scott-Gambler-27-5-Bottom-Out,60188/sspomer,2

Said it before...let the dust settle thrn..

Buy secondhand

It is comical how much bollocks comes out of his mouth.

"27.5 wheels are faster" says mid pack rider and below par journalist Steve Jones. "We haven't tested them yet" says ex world cup racer and team manager Nigel Page.

"But you're going to be at disadvantage"

Jesus, pipe the **** down Jones, the 27.5 evangelicalism works up until you start talking with elite riders who test everything before making conclusions.

FFS.

Does anyone else remember about five years ago when everything was about rear suspension layout? Four bar, faux bar, single pivot, floating drivetrain, virtual axle paths and dw links etc etc ad nauseam.

Now it's just all just 29 versus 27.5 and you're not a mountain biker if you have 26" inch wheels. Hardly any mention of suspension layouts because that horse has already been flogged to death.

It's the same old bullshit as you get from all industries. Take golf. The only thing that sell a set of clubs to most people is the driver. They all dream of smashing 350 yard drives (despite playing off of double figure handicaps and losing at least ten quids worth of golf balls every round). Gimmicks mixed with some cutting edge stuff that will only really benefit the very elite level participants.

In 'protest' I ride a lovely steel 26er hardtail. And guess what, I absolutely love it.

Can't wait for Mitch to podium at PMB on the E29. The Internet will explode.

thing is though, the bigger wheel is faster, you can argue it isn't until you run out of places to buy 26" stuff but in the end they are.
time to join the 21st century guys*

*if any bike company is out there looking for new staff, see i am ace at this marketing bullshit thing, employ me!

Oh and another thing. I distinctly remember mbr doing a ten biggest failures in mountain bikes a few years back.

29ers were in there along with dual control shifters, softtails and other laughing stock fare.

So what's changed? Well I think the manufacturers pushing it and putting the arm on not so impartial journos might just have something to do with it. The journos will claim that the bikes have evolved to accommodate the wheel size so much better these days, but what they really mean is Giant and Trek etc said we have to push this now, or we'll lose loads of advertising revenue. Amazingly all the magazines have slavishly toed the line, quelle surprise.

And the standard of most 'journalism' in mountain bike mags wouldn't be out of place on 80s kids show 'Press Gang'. Unfortunately they are mostly just industry shills with too much at stake to be impartial. Singletrack excepted of course 😉

"27.5 wheels are faster" says mid pack rider

Short memory or are you just a whippersnapper?

https://www.rootsandrain.com/rider1470/steven-jones-vet/results/

Still bollocks, like...

Credit it where it's due to MBR on 29ers mind, they owned up to getting it wrong, and still make a point of mentioning it.

Funny, I remember a chance meeting with Dobby the house elf from future, where he'd just testridden a KHS 29er... He said "If you rode a bike as bad as that as your first 29er, you'd believe all the rubbish everyone says about them" People form strong opinions based on first experiences and a lot of people's first experience of 29ers was on a shit bike.

Short memory or are you just a whippersnapper?

Mid pack rider when he rides against the worlds best.

Are there any UK MTB journalists who we can actually trust anymore?

This 650b thing has reflected badly on the whole industry, but I reckon it's the credibility of the MTB media that will be the biggest loser.

Credit it where it's due to MBR on 29ers mind, they owned up to getting it wrong, and still make a point of mentioning it.

Indeed. I don't know how that Orange 5 650b V's 26" got in the mag because as you say, totally different geo etc.

I still say their bike tests are head and shoulders above anyone else's though.

Are there any UK MTB journos who we can actually trust anymore?

This 650b thing has reflected badly on the whole industry, but I reckon it's the credibility of the MTB media that will be the biggest loser.

Its always been like this, new fads, bells and whistles. Bike brands trying to make money. I don't blame them really and I'm amazed people are only starting to pick up on it.

thing is though, the bigger wheel is faster, you can argue it isn't until you run out of places to buy 26" stuff but in the end they are.
time to join the 21st century guys*

*if any bike company is out there looking for new staff, see i am ace at this marketing bullshit thing, employ me!

Data please, pinkbike ran a test that seemed to show they were slower on the downs. Is the tiny difference in wheel size worth the loss of travel many of the 650b dh bikes are seeing?

If they're faster why has it been a case of marketing bringing these bikes to consumers first and elite level downhillers later, when new stuff has almost always been tested by dh teams before we get it.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/650b-spicy-conclusively-faster-says-nico

I'm not surprised at the actions of the big bike companies.

I am very surprised that not one UK journo has expressed a negative opinion.
This alone makes me wonder exactly how much influence the manufacturers have on what we read.

Rusty Spanner - Member
Not just Dirt.

What MTB are the worst.
A couple of unbelievably patronising pro 650B articles by Jo Burt and Matt Letch, people I previously had much respect for, has put me off both the mag and the authors.

i've never ridden a 650b bike, i've never written anything about 650b bikes, just to clear that up

Apologies.
Could have sworn the article last year on opinions and influence of friends on kit choice was yours.
The accompanying illustration certainly was, perhaps that's what got me confused.

Once again, apologies if I got that wrong.

I'm not surprised at the actions of the big bike companies.
I am very surprised that not one UK journo has expressed a negative opinion.
This alone makes me wonder exactly how much influence the manufacturers have on what we read.

Maybe I'm imagining things but haven't we also seen not one UK journo expressing a negative opinion about the slackening of head angles and lowering of bottom brackets over the past five years? Maybe there's something in this slightly bigger wheel thing too?

I can't provide an objective opinion because my new bike has slacker, lower, longer geometry, a much stiffer frame, excellent rear suspension rather than none and much better front suspension, as well as slightly bigger wheels. Far too many variables! Bloody awesome though.

The first 650b review I read was in ST mag, by Benji I think.

His conclusion IIRC was that it was pointless.

[conspiracy mode]
Don't see much written by him any more of course...
[/conspiracy mode]

Speaking to a mate in his bike shop yesterday and the 26" obsolete tech joke hit again (he now only has 3 26" bikes in stock and probably will only get a DH bike in with those wheels) his main surprise was how efficiently the bike industry has got together to remove the 26" bike from the market.

I'm not surprised at the actions of the big bike companies.
I am very surprised that not one UK journo has expressed a negative opinion.
This alone makes me wonder exactly how much influence the manufacturers have on what we read.

There is very little editorial in bike mags really.

You're going to have to explain what you think "editorial" means.

Not one negative comment published regarding the way that 650b has been forced onto the market?
Not even one?

And you don't find that surprising?

Rusty Spanner - Member
Apologies.
Could have sworn the article last year on opinions and influence of friends on kit choice was yours.
The accompanying illustration certainly was, perhaps that's what got me confused.

the illustrator does not always share the opinion of the article he's commissioned to illustrate
🙂

perhaps the wrong word selected early in the morning,
(From wikipedia - [i]An editorial, leading article (UK), or leader (UK) is an opinion piece written by the senior editorial staff or publisher of a newspaper or magazine[/i] )

I was probably searching for more straight opinion piece on the way things are. Singletrack probably has a bit more than most. The majority are New Stuff, New Stuff, New Stuff, Look at the new stuff we got, Holiday, look at our free holiday, new stuff, somewhere we went cause there was no free holiday but look at the new stuff we took etc.

It's just boys and toys isn't it?

The next 'big thing' comes along and the previous 'big thing' is forgotten.

In all honesty a dual ring plus 7/8 speed cassette would still be more than adequate for the majority of riders, and just look at the price you can pick this stuff up for. But no, because all the mags push 10/11 speed, that's what everyone wants. The brands then seek to make their old stuff obsolete by discontinuing it and forcing people to upgrade.

I'm not saying that this is 'wrong' per se, but if you just read between the lines a bit with all this 'must-have' crap, you can enjoy riding a mountain bike without breaking the bank on new bits all the time (speaking as someone who gets stuff delivered to work so the missus doesn't see it :oops:).

You have to consider practicality too. I would never spend more than absolutely necessary on a rear mech. You can pay over a hundred quid if you like, but the fact is it Is still something that hangs off the side of a mountain bike wheel. Sooner or later it is going to get twotted on a rock, tree stump, badger etc.

I've actually got quite a lot of respect for Steve Jones' opinions. Most of what he says, as a fast, aggressive rider that has ridden lots of bikes, is true. He might not have the most eloquent writing style but the core of what he says is true. I used to have two 26" bikes, now I've got two 27.5" bikes. Why? Because they're faster and feel no different once you've spent a couple of hours on one. The manual balance point and time difference when you tip them into a corner is slight, so it takes a few hours to get used to, but once you have, it feels identical to 26" (no bad thing), but slightly faster rolling and smoother over rough trails.

Just my 2 pence.

Wheel size debate = pseudo cock size debate.

Mine's smaller than yours.

Gotcha now mike. Agreed.

No, no, no, mine is definitely smaller. But I pride myself I know how to use it, mind! 😉

ttp://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/650b-spicy-conclusively-faster-says-nico

Where as Fabien Barrel thinks 26 inch bikes are faster.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/World-Championships-Bikes-and-Gear-2013,6282/Jared-Graves-to-Ride-Yeti-SB66-at-2013-DH-World-Champs,62143/sspomer,2

Where were the 650bs and 29ers on a track that was meant to suit them?

Apparently the new bike is one second faster over a 2min 50sec run. Which I work out as around 0.35%.

I wonder if he checked that the difference was statistically significant to a 95 percent confidence level.

The first 650b review I read was in ST mag, by Benji I think.

Yep. Spooky Horror Taxi?

He might not have the most eloquent writing style but the core of what he says is true

That may be true, but he earns his living as a [b]journalist[/b]. All the enthusiasm and technical knowledge in the world is of no use in journalism if you can't write coherent English, or at least English that can be sub-edited into coherence. It consistently appears (having read Dirt on and off over the last few years) that this is something Jones is utterly incapable of doing.

I find jones writing style entertaining and sort is still the best mag out there IMHO

As for nico having stastisically analysed his times TomW how many world cup overalls do you have ? - I'll take his word over yours

I find jones writing style entertaining and dirt is still the best mag out there IMHO

As for nico having stastisically analysed his times TomW how many world cup overalls do you have ? - I'll take his word over yours

I think the issue of whether wheel size x or y is faster is almost a moot point. For many people, the issue is more about not having a spare 2 grand lying around to replace frame, fork, wheels and tyres for the benefit of going a bit faster.

I think a lot of magazines and Dirt in particular have lost the plot a bit in terms of what constitutes a reasonable amount of money to pay for bike parts when you might only get to ride them once a week.

It's almost as if someone wants you to buy a complete new bike, not just a new fork, or wheels, or frame, or other peace-meal upgrade/replacement this year...

That video is well worth watching all the way through by the way.

I'm obviously a sucker because I bought a 650b bike new rather than a frame as I normally would coz of the wheel size compatibility issues

But you know what I don't care coz its solo much better than my old bike (it's even fully endorsed by Steve Jones)

The bike industry have done themselves a lot of damage with the way they've handled 650b. A new standard to choose from is ok. To try and force all your customers' installed base into obsolescence by refusing to support it, comes across as manipulation.
There's something desperate about the way they've gone about it which seems different this time about all the other innovations we've had.

oh no they didnt!

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Prototype-29-DH-Bike-From-KHS-2014.html

Kimbers - The new one would be better than your old one if it had a basket on the front.

graham stop complaining and come to cwmcarn next weekend

Didn't know you were going and just over a week before the wedding is a really bad plan

jones' boner for anything other than 26" is getting properly annoying now. He could be heard dismissing pagey's answers as they were coming out of his mouth with his groans and sighs.

Tom_W1987 - Member
thing is though, the bigger wheel is faster, you can argue it isn't until you run out of places to buy 26" stuff but in the end they are.
time to join the 21st century guys*
*if any bike company is out there looking for new staff, see i am ace at this marketing bullshit thing, employ me!
Data please, pinkbike ran a test that seemed to show they were slower on the downs. Is the tiny difference in wheel size worth the loss of travel many of the 650b dh bikes are seeing?

Well, I could make some up if you like!

You do get irony yes?

Clementz is on the proto 27.5" Jekyll in the Andes Pacifico Enduro this week. He got overtaken for the lead by Francois Bailly-Maitre on his 29" BMC TF01 today...

Wheelsize battles everywhere!

A cynical person might suggest the industry realised that short arses were never going to buy 29ers because they looked odd on them with negative rise stems and the like so they got a middle ground to sell a new wheelsize now need everyone on board to get the punters to part with cash.

Jonesy's going to be creaming himself at this...
[img] [/img]

Brook McDonald's proto Session in 650b

Credit it where it's due to MBR on 29ers mind, they owned up to getting it wrong

Wait, what? Are 29ers no good now then? What was MBR's original position?

As a matter of fact, the Internet Wheelsize Resistance is the main reason I am curious to try a 650b bike.

It's a bit like gay sex in that respect: denouncing it so loudly only makes people curious.

🙂

Only a valid comparison if women are to be phased out. 😀

Even Giant aren't that arrogant.

What a fool!
Has he got some off his own money in 27.5??

Rusty Spanner - Member
Not one negative comment published regarding the way that 650b has been forced onto the market?
Not even one?

And you don't find that surprising?

Until WC season I pretend dirt doesn't exist.

The opinions contained within mean nowt to me, utter glossy waffle.

CZis right of course.

I well remember when all of the 650b bikes were withdrawn in favour of 26ers, leaving a dissolutioned user base of millions of happy 650b riders......

Oh, hang on.

You don't think 650b has beed forced onto the market?
I don't believe you.
😀

Wait til they get a leg over the 650b Trek session and RAD rear shock.
Jonesys pants will explode.

[img] [/img]

View this post on Instagram

What I find funny about all this '27.5 is betterer than 26' guff is that there aren't that many truly bad bikes out there in either. My 1st MTB was my dad's old tourer with 27x1 3/8th" cross tyres, a quill stem from my Raleigh burner and some cow-horn handlebars. To finish it off I took off the mudguards and rack & got a right belting off my dad..!

I had loads of fun on it - it was a wheely monster and skidded ace.

It didn't matter what size the wheels were - I used what it had fitted and still had a laugh. This is what a lot of people have forgotten - it's about having fun. There aren't many on here who will benefit from a seconds advantage over 1-3 minutes. Hell, if I lost half a stone I'd smash all over any wheel size advantage, but to what ends? I'm still having fun so it really doesn't matter.

I propose that given the bike industry is so fickle, my 36" waist is far better than my old 34" waist, which pissed all over my previous 32"..! Clearly the 36" version is rounder and more shock absorbing, and if I pull a funny move in the mirror without clothes on, I certainly look more teardrop shaped for aerodynamics (only if you blur your eyes and squint a bit).

So here it is 36" waists are 116% better than a 650b wheelset. If you wanna kick the arse of Gwin,
Atherton et al... Eat more pie and chips!

You don't think 650b has beed forced onto the market?
I don't believe you.

I don't agree.

We have had the choice of buying a well specced 26 inch bike removed.
The manufacturers have replaced the vast majority with 650b bikes.

That's what I mean by forced onto the market.

Manufacturers didn't suddenly withdraw all road bikes when MTB's hit the market.

And I don't remember seeing many 650b road bikes in the 70's, unless as an alternative to 27inch bikes for shorter riders.

And I don't remember seeing many 650b road bikes in the 70's, unless as an alternative to 27inch bikes for shorter riders.

Isn't that 650C?