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France: £66
Germany: £118
Belgium: £144
Spain: £108
Italy: £65
Britain: £381
Is this actually comparable though? How much is the cost per mile and to what extent are fares in Britain reflective of how long people commute?
To get to £381 a month you’re probably looking at a 50-60 mile rail journey - so around 0.16p a mile.
Edit: the headline figures probably don’t tell the whole story:
https://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html
There is no example of any other country in the world that managed to spend it’s way into a boom over the last 10 years.
Portugal was cited:
Quite a few other hits about spending out of recessions. It's a thing.
I can think of far better things to spend many thousands of pounds of my money than nationalising a load of stuff. If money was really tight how does that decision go. Shoes for the kids, or buy out the shareholders of some seriously massive firms…
They won't be taxing poor people who can barely afford kids shoes. Not doing that is literally the entire raison d'etre of the Labour party. You really are talking absolute rubbish, it's quite strange how selective your perception is. You utterly mis-udnerstood my point re the WASPI compensation. I knew it wasn't costed (as I said) so my original comment was NOT an attempt to say it was costed - just an invitation for the poster to read about stuff for himself. Point missed completely. And then you mock me for your own misunderstanding of my point. Please try to understand not just sling mud.
Also don’t forget there are a vast number of working class people with small Ltd Company businesses. The medium and big firms will just move HQ abroad and avoid the corporation tax rise, small shop owners and plumbers can’t.
Small businesses won't pay more corporation tax, because it's paid on PROFIT after costs such as salaries. So the only way they will pay more tax is if they are using bonuses and dividends to pay less tax than they should in the first place.
no idea if these are accurate, maybe someone with better gewgleidge skills can confirm/deny?
http://actionforrail.org/the-four-big-myths-of-uk-rail-privatisation/
"The cost of running the railway has more than doubled in real terms since privatisation from £2.4bn per year (1990–91 to 1994–95) to approximately £5.4bn per year (2005–06 to 2009–10).
Official figures show that all but one of the private train operators in the UK receive more in subsidies than they return in the form of franchise payments to the government. In 2013–14, the government contributed £3.8bn to the UK rail industry.
The top five recipients of public subsidy alone received almost £3bn in taxpayer support between 2007 and 2011. This allowed them to make operating profits of £504m – over 90 per cent (£466m) of which was paid to shareholders."
When you buy a rail ticket from a private rail company, to get to work, some of that money goes into the pockets of rich businessmen. Is that the way it should be? Should people be profiting from an essential service? I say no.
and tax evading big companies
Evading?
take their business with them when they go, I am shure someone else will take up the business they leave behind.
The rules don't require them to take their business - just move the nominal HQ. That usually requires redundant-izing a 2-4 uk staff and employing a 2-4 in the new country's address and holding board meetings in that country - a PITA even in the Easy Jet age but in a fiercely competitive world what's the alternative?
All academic because we're talking about working class voters with small LTD firms - tradesmen/small shop owners. A plumber with a van can't move HQ they'll be paying the lot - hence they're examples of working class people who might not be enthusiastic about voting Labour.
Precisely, is Avoidance the correct term?
the rules need to change to not allow tax to be paid in low tax havens for big companies trading in other countries.
I see a manifesto as a direction rather than an absolute.
Ah so the Tories could ignore that referendum then?
Portugal was cited:
Did you read your link? [1]
Portugal simply benefited passively, along with others, from a strong recovery in Europe overall.
It raised the possibility ending Austerity did it, it certainly doesn't conclude it. Hell of a coincidence that it turned around when Europe turned around!
They won’t be taxing poor people who can barely afford kids shoes.
They will. Corporation tax is just like VAT. The customer pays. It's not remotely progressive. The greengrocer has to pass it on to his customers, he doesn't create special money from an alternative source to pay his taxes, he makes all his money from his customers. There is no way to spend the sums Labour (and the Torys) are talking about without the vast majority of us paying. Very few people, if anyone believes the "other people will pay" mantra.
[1] In fact that's the second time you've wasted my time tonight. First you claimed the Grey Book included costings for all Labours promises, now you've shared a link without bothering to read it yourself. I'll hit send on this because I've already written it but I won't be replying to you again for a while.
Interesting item on C4News about a focus group with ex-Labour voters. They were asked about Johnson. “A character” they said. “Straight talking” one said. Hard to imagine anybody less worthy of being called “straight talking”.
I saw one vox pop recently and the respondent described Boris as "a man of his word."
Can;t blame people for being terrified of Corbyn
https://twitter.com/Millar_Colin/status/1201581431371247616
the rules need to change to not allow tax to be paid in low tax havens for big companies trading in other countries.
That's easy, VAT does exactly that. It's not politically very popular though.
Unless you're talking about changing the rules to make companies HQ and pay *corporation* tax in a specific countries. That isn't so easy. If it was somewhere would have cracked it. (Ok, North Korea & East Germany solved it...)
Tories. Financial credence.
Brexit will cost the country, net, about £60bn a year in perpetuity. That is a ‘conservative’ (ha!) estimate. Brexit is a Tory owned problem.
The Tories are not what they were. They are not the party of business or economic prosperity or however else they used to be perceived. They have been taken over by disaster capitalist and spivs who want a quick and gargantuan pay day and **** the rest of us.
Financial credence my arse.
All the parties agreed significant cuts were required to get debt under control. There is no example of any other country in the world that managed to spend it’s way into a boom over the last 10 years. (
I actually don't think labour did. Plus there is a massive difference between cuts and austerity.
Must be a coincidence that the places that borrowed and spent and avoided austerity budgets recovered more fully and more quickly than those that didn't. And that the ones that didn't were getting ample evidence of it but chose to pursue ideology instead of good advice.
Austerity continues to be a drag in the UK economy today while other places are doing really quite well.
IFS said today that No Deal Brexit & Tory manifesto pledges will cost more than Labours spending plans + their norway Brexit
(And unless Johnson does some major u-Turns on his current red lines or EU concede majorly then no deal it is)
The Tories are not what they were.
Not at all, this new breed bears little resemblance to the party of old.
https://www.ft.com/content/8075e68c-7857-11e8-8e67-1e1a0846c475
“Precisely, is Avoidance the correct term?
the rules need to change to not allow tax to be paid in low tax havens for big companies trading in other countries“
Most of the largest U.K. headquartered PLCs derive the majority of their revenue (and hence profit) overseas. They can therefore legitimately choose to locate their HQ wherever it makes sense to do so - many choose London for access to City firms in particular, law.
Should they choose to domicile in Ireland they would not be “evading” anything but in almost every case shareholders would benefit from the reduction in corporation tax from the 26% Labour are proposing and the 12% that Ireland currently levies.
When most revenue / profit is derived overseas you can’t simply cry “tax haven” because other countries in Europe are more competitive on tax.
The Conservatives stole the miners' pension fund.
Stole? According to the FT it was guaranteed in exchange for 50pc of any surplus (if there was one).
https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2019/06/11/govt-mulls-pension-guarantees-for-mineworkers/?page=1
First you claimed the Grey Book included costings for all Labours promises
I most emphatically did not, as I've tried to point out I think twice now.
It raised the possibility ending Austerity did it, it certainly doesn’t conclude it.
I did read the link.. you don't seem to be understanding what's going on here. I'm trying not to post black and white partisan links in an effort to win. I'm trying to have a discussion about the issues. Of course I'm not an economist, and I only have minimal time for research, so I'm throwing information into the mix and trying to be balanced about it. Maybe I'm naive in hoping for people to follow suit 🙂
The greengrocer has to pass it on to his customers, he doesn’t create special money from an alternative source to pay his taxes
Why does a greengrocer pay any corporation tax at all? You do know how corp tax works don't you?
Most of the largest U.K. headquartered PLCs derive the majority of their revenue (and hence profit) overseas.
that is fine and they can pay tax on the % of their overseas profits wherever they make them.
but it seems unfair that it is possible to benefit from the infrastructure and market of a given country and then export those profits outside of its borders to pay a lower rate of tax to a goverment that has little if anything to do with the creation of that profit.
but it seems unfair that it is possible to benefit from the infrastructure and market of a given country and then export those profits outside of its borders to pay a lower rate of tax to a goverment that has little if anything to do with the creation of that profit.
Well, if you can make up rules that stop that happening without going all "North Korea" you can sell it to governments throughout the world and fix the problem for good.
In the meantime there's VAT.
Small businesses won’t pay more corporation tax, because it’s paid on PROFIT after costs such as salaries. So the only way they will pay more tax is if they are using bonuses and dividends to pay less tax than they should in the first place.
You really don't understand this do you? We pay significant sums in corporation tax every year, and we're a very typical small business with 4 employees. The notion that small businesses wouldn't be affected by an increase is nonsense. The only businesses not affected are large organisations that can afford to use arcane offshore structures to stop paying any corporation tax at all.
If corporation tax were reduced to a sensible level we'd probably re-invest our additional revenue, primarily in creating jobs, thereby generating income tax revenues, or increase dividends, which would also generate tax income. Larger companies would also be less likely to try to avoid paying the tax if it were set at a lower level. But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good 'all companies are evil and should be taxed to death' doctrine, shall we?
JP
We pay significant sums in corporation tax every year, and we’re a very typical small business with 4 employees.
Ok, fair point. I'm thinking of the plumbers etc individual traders.
Curious as to why you bank profits each year though? Is it simply a case of not being able to spend it by year end?
If corporation tax were reduced to a sensible level we’d probably re-invest our additional revenue, primarily in creating jobs, thereby generating income tax revenues, or increase dividends, which would also generate tax income.
So I definitely don't understand how lower corporation tax rates would lead you to re-invest revenue. If you re-invest it then you don't pay corp tax on it do you? This is surely the entire point of corp tax - to encourage you to re-invest? What do you do with it if you aren't re-investing it? Put it in the bank? Isn't that what attracts tax?
Dividends are taxed, but surely less than corporation tax which is why contractors pay themselves that way... unless it's changed since I last did it.
But let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good ‘all companies are evil and should be taxed to death’ doctrine, shall we?
Not even close to my position. I'm trying to have a discussion, not win an argument.
Well, if you can make up rules that stop that happening without going all “North Korea” you can sell it to governments throughout the world and fix the problem for good.
jjprestidge
Member
The only businesses not affected are large organisations that can afford to use arcane offshore structures to stop paying any corporation tax at all.
And most small businesses, because most small businesses don't pay corporation tax. I think we did this a couple of weeks ago? Sole traders and partnerships don't pay corporation tax, as they're not corporations. They amount for 2/3ds of all companies in the UK and of course that's heavily biased towards small companies.
Some people either don't understand how corporation tax works, or want to misrepresent who has to pay it. Or like Boris Johnson, can only make their argument by lying about it.
Of course, the Labour policy is simply reversing the cuts of recent years to where we were in 2011, 26%. It wasn't high then, and it wouldn't be high today- in fact it's bang on the EU average, and under the world average. UK businesses will still benefit from a lower rate of corporation tax than Germany, France, Portugal, Belgium, Italy, and Greece. And Japan, and Mexico, and pretty much the same as the USA.
For some reason the Tories say that to compete, we have to compete on corporation tax with Lithuania, rather than our european industrialised peers. Never quite understood why so many conservatives think the UK is somehow inferior to Germany and France and can only compete by undercutting them massively. (because even with Labour's hikes, we will still undercut them, just not by as much.)
(And Greece tried spending their way out and went utterly tits up.)
Greece doesn't issue it's own currency.
Ah so the Tories could ignore that referendum then?
Why would they? Tories are mostly anti-EU.
Why would they? - they're mostly anti-EU.
So I definitely don’t understand how lower corporation tax rates would lead you to re-invest revenue. If you re-invest it then you don’t pay corp tax on it do you?
That's correct.
That's exactly what we do. We spend our money on film equipment and get 100% tax relief. That money could equally go on business premises, cost of sales etc.
Ofcourse we have less wages but it's all about growth.
There's some rubbish on here about Corporation tax.
You've got it correct Molgrips.
Don't forget the Tories are unable to carry out their final cuts to corporation tax because they say they want more money for hospitals.
This is despite the fact they say that lowering corp tax brings more in.
They never tell the truth. No one tells the truth about the monetary system save a few prominent MMTers.
If growing an economy was as simple as borrowing and spending there would be no poor countries and every country in the world would be spending like crazy
That's because there are other constraints:
Inflation, slack in the economy via the labour force and resources and it helps if you are the sole issuer of you're your own money.
We will only ever grow the economy by spending - our country has stalled because of lack of spending. It has to happen.
A government 'debt' is a positive in the private sector. The money is then taxed back out of circulation.
Our monetary system demands this or we will never grow. Why do you think the Tories have be an abject failure ? - it's because they don't spend, and on the right things.
That’s because there are other constraints:
Now you're getting it!!! Keynesian stimulus has its place but it isn't a panacea for all countries at all times. (Trump is trying it now and I can't find a single informed commentator who things it's a sane thing to do at this point in the cycle - can you???)
Why do you think the Tories have be an abject failure ? – it’s because they don’t spend
They've been spending plenty. We're currently spending more on interest on debt than we spend on welfare.
We spend our money on film equipment and get 100% tax relief
Yes, you avoid corporation tax. It's easy to avoid, that's the point.
Don’t forget the Tories are unable to carry out their final cuts to corporation tax because they say they want more money for hospitals.
This is despite the fact they say that lowering corp tax brings more in.
Corporation Tax Revenue has steadily gone up with almost every cut in rate in recent years. That doesn't mean it wold go up if it was cut again. By definition HMRC are looking for the sweetspot and *think* this is it. If they thought another cut would increase revenue they'd already have made it.
No one tells the truth about the monetary system save a few prominent MMTers.
😀 Thousands of people from all countries in the world who would all gain from growing the economy are all lying to stop the economy growing? Hope that tin foil hat isn't too tight for you.
Yes, you avoid corporation tax. It’s easy to avoid, that’s the point.
But this is not a loophole, n it's deliberately designed that way to encourage the money to be spent back in the economy where it creates growth.
Avoiding it is doing stuff like creating a UK subsidiary of an overseas company,then the overseas company charges the UK one a license fee to use their branding, which funnily enough is usually just about the same figure as the UK company makes profit.
And Greece tried spending their way out and went utterly tits up.
That's precisely the wrong way round - Greece adopted (was forced to adopt) austerity (to satisfy German political constraints) and it went from bad to worse.
That’s precisely the wrong way round – Greece adopted (was forced to adopt) austerity (to satisfy German political constraints) and it went from bad to worse.
It's the right way round, Greece went to the EU (Germany) for a baleout after they'd tried spending cash to boost their economy and it catastrophically failed.
If borrowing and spending had grown their economy Greece wouldn't have needed to go to the EU (Germany) for a baleout in the first place. In fact if borrowing and spending was considered a panacea then they wouldn't have needed a baleout from the EU (Germany) because alternative lenders would have been queing up to lend safe in the knowledge they'd get their money back plus a ton of interest once the borrowing caused Greece's economy to thrive.
Greece tried to spend their way out of it? Eh? Thats a somewhat interesting interpretation. You're making it sound like they were attempting to build some kind of utopian Keynesian economic model. They definitely weren't doing that.
Greece actually took advantage of lax EU financial oversight and moral-free UK-based 'creative accountancy' to cook the books and spank loads of other peoples money on unnecessary shiny things, vanity projects and good old fashioned corruption. All while simultaneously making an executive decision that nobody was going to pay any tax.
Can you spot the flaw in that plan? Hence needing to be bailed out. Greeces problems were entirely of their own making, but the government tried to blame those horrid nasty Germans for making them face up to the reality that magic money trees don't actually exist
@oob Thats not the whole story
Greece were borrowing with no tax base to pay it back, tax avoidance was endemic
Government had spent the last 20? years in the pocket of oligarchs.
At every level tax was not being paid
>25% ! of the economy was off the books just before the crash, that was the worst in the developed world in the time
Greeces problems were entirely of their own making, but the government tried to blame those horrid nasty Germans for making them face up to the reality that magic money trees don’t actually exist
I'm not sure that's quite true either. German banks were happy to lend them billions even though they knew they couldn't pay it back. The greek bailout by the EU/German govt wasn't a bailout of Greece, it was a bailout for German and EU banks to protect them from losses due to irresponsible lending. Sound at all familiar?
Anyway this is all off topic. Where's Dannyh? I was quite enjoying trolling him with silence. I thought he had more perseverence that that 😉
Don't let us stop you.
German banks were happy to lend them billions even though they knew they couldn’t pay it back.
Don't be ridiculous. No bank is ever going to do that. The Greek government spent millions with UK based accountancy firms to cook their books for them to display a rather rose-tinted balance sheet, thus qualifying for finance that they knew they could never afford to pay back.
You'd kind of think, as a bank, that the accounts you were being presented with by a sovereign government within the EU weren't actually the work of pure fiction.
You can't blame the German banks for what was systemic huge-scale fraud by the Greek government. Which is why our 'oh no... poor us' act afterwards didn't elicit much sympathy
Still... lots of UK firms in The City made a killing out of it. Which, somewhat ironically, points us to the direction of what our economy will be based on post-Brexit
The greek bailout by the EU/German govt wasn’t a bailout of Greece, it was a bailout for German and EU banks to protect them from losses due to irresponsible lending. Sound at all familiar?
again not entirely true
German (& other) creditors took 70-50% 'haircuts' (wtf is it called that?) on greek debt, which was the biggest loan restructuring ever IIRC?
anyway Kantat who predicted pretty well 2017 result have Tories up 1pt to 12 ahead today, which sucks donkey balls
I'm hoping for heavy snow and sub-zero temperatures. Weren't they predicting a flu epidemic too?
Let's hope there's some truth in this
apparently 25% of voters already voted by post!
">25% ! of the economy was off the books just before the crash, that was the worst in the developed world in the time"
Spain says "hold my pint"