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The argument I’ve heard is that they’ve worked hard to get what they have so why should they support a party who will give to others who haven’t worked as hard.
I hear this a lot. The trouble with this argument is that people who earn a lot think that they deserve it more than those who earn less but still work their asses off. It's that peddled falsehood that money equates to success. There's no acknowledgement that a lot of wealthy people have had the background/luck/connections/opportunities that others less well-off may not have had. I doubt the average entitled high earner who was highly educated and had much better opportunities in life, has ever worked as hard as a single mother who works two jobs just to make ends meet.
Stuart Lee - The Money Is Mine sums it up quite nicely.
I do OK for myself and family for example, and I have worked hard to get where I am, but I fully acknowledge I have been extremely fortunate in my upbringing and background too. I will be voting for a Labour government as I am saddened by the perpetuating greed, corruption, selfishness, division and poverty in this country. I think we need a change, and although I have my doubts about how Corbyn will pay for a lot of his policies, I agree with them in principle and genuinely believe he is a rare politician that actually cares more about people than money. The big problem is our blatantly biased media - say something often enough and people start to believe it!
The point is did anyone know it was going to end so badly?
pretty much anyone who has read any history, or anyone who has seen "Charlie Wilson's War"
Nature abhors a vacuum. Interventionist policies always leave a vacuum.
The trouble with this argument is that people who earn a lot think that they deserve it more than those who earn less but still work their asses off.
It’s those people who don’t earn much but work hard that I refer to as working class Tories.
There’s a degree of politics of jealousy in that they have worked hard for not much so why should someone else get more?
It’s those people who don’t earn much but work hard that I refer to as working class Tories.
There’s a degree of politics of jealousy in that they have worked hard for not much so why should someone else get more?
Yes, I think that they have usually been convinced that there are a mass of scroungers out there who have no intention of ever working, and yet are still getting paid loads in benefits. They are also convinced that Labour are going to give them even more, but the reality is somewhat different as afar as I'm aware.
The argument I’ve heard is that they’ve worked hard to get what they have so why should they support a party who will give to others who haven’t worked as hard.
John Harris in the Guardian and others have been doing a reasonable job of trying to get the bottom of the phenomenon.
Doesn't explain it all, like why people most hurt by austerity and London centric governance would want to vote for the party most closely associated with it.
There’s a document costing everything, why don’t you give that a read.
Because someone's wife thinks he looks like he's a homeless commie.
It must be true. A Labour supporter on here has told me so every five minutes for the past 3 years....
Well I’ve just done my democratic duty. Postal vote posted.
The Lib Dem and Green Party candidates both stood down to make it a straight Tory/Labour scrap with the waters muddied with Farage’s rabble in this key marginal seat. But there names were still on the ballot sheet?
Anyway... I’m joining Ivan in making predictions. I shoved a tenner on a hung parliament last time while May was well clear in the polls, at 5/1
The other week I shoved a tenner on a hung parliament with labour the largest party, at 6/1. My reasoning is that I just can’t see Boris and co convincing enough labour voters to commit the mortal sin/class treachery of voting Tory in the ‘labour heartlands’ seats they’re targeting in the north.
They’re absolutely loathed in these places. For a whole world of very valid reasons. People may tell pollsters they’ll do it, but when it actually comes down to putting that cross in the box marked Conservative Party....?
Maybe that’s wishful thinking, but we’ll see
There’s a document costing everything, why don’t you give that a read.
Fantastic, please post a quote from the section of the document that explains the 58bn over 5 years for WASPI women.
(58bn is more than total of Labour's entire manifesto commitments in the last election which was pretty pork-barrel-y at a bit over 40bn IIRC.)
Binners, you've never stopped going on about how unelectable Corbyn is, now you put money on him winning. Either your political or gambling insight is rubbish! Remind me not to take racing tips from you 🙂
Fantastic, please post a quote from the section of the document that explains the 58bn over 5 years for WASPI women.
Nope, not my manifesto. I was telling the poster to read the document.
I was right last time Molls. I think Grandad is absolutely hopeless (I may have mentioned it) but I’ve still just voted labour. What else am I going to do?
I reckon that when it comes down to it, a lot of people are going to weigh up what the reality of 5 years of Boris Johnson would actually look like, hold their noses and do the same
So 1p income tax will do very little.
Indeed, so you can see how insane the profligate spending pledges from the other parties are.
There’s a document costing everything, why don’t you give that a read.
Fantastic, please post a quote from the section of the document that explains the 58bn over 5 years for WASPI women.
Fantastic, please post a quote from the section of the document that explains the 58bn over 5 years for WASPI women.
Nope
😀
You poor naive child. A politician told you there was a document costing everything and you accepted that without checking for yourself.
Here it is:
No mention of the 58bn.
I was right last time Molls. I think Grandad is absolutely hopeless (I may have mentioned it) but I’ve still just voted labour. What else am I going to do?
You did the right thing Dusty.
You poor naive child. A politician told you there was a document costing everything and you accepted that without checking for yourself.
I knew it wasn't in the document because I saw Andrew Neil take Corbyn apart over it. Corbyn admitted that it might need to be borrowed. Whoever it was that posted was asking about much more than that, which is why I directed him at the costing document.
I'm a realist about the contents of manifestos and how they are costed. Neither party will do everything in their manifesto and neither will balance the books particularly well. But despite that, I still trust Corbyn to do what I think is right far more than I do Johnson. In fact, I trust Johnson to do nothing but lie through his teeth, tell people what they want to hear and then not bother to do anything. Because all he wants to do is make money and be important. He does not give a shit about the poor, or you, or me. Corbyn on the other hand does care. That's the bottom line. Corbyn will try to fix things.
Interesting little tidbit.
It is. Basically anything could happen.
I know. So how is the free Broadband going to be paid for? And the free prescriptions. And the reduction in rail fares?
Tax doesn't pay for things. It controls inflation.
Secret: a sovereign country like ours that is the single issuer of its own currency can't run out of money
Just like q/e the government can issue funds - as long as there are the resources to match the spending. Governments don't campaign on this as it's still considered controversial.
Short answer.
Long answer read Stephanie Kelton - Bernie Sanders' senior economic advisor.
www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-economist-who-believes-the-government-should-just-print-more-money
It's apolitical so don't start thinking it's a leftist thing, and is effectively just a description of how the money supply works.
Now some know the value of this but they're hardly going to sell it to the electorate as idiots go on about Zimbabwe (broken economies.) hyperinflation etc.
So yeah, keep it in the back of your mind. (The Republicans know the value of this and did it for the military.)
I'm working class and will be voting Tory.
Not that my vote will change anything, as the tories win by 15000 each time here.
Why?
Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbot.
I voted Labour once before, thinking it was going to be a real change. Then Blair gave in to Ecclestone, and cancelled his plan to ban cigarette advertising. Then it came to light that Ecclestone had given money to the Labour party. Yes, what a coincidence.
Jeremy Corbyn - there is no way I could vote for a party with him as Leader. I've said it numerous times, if Labour had a good leader, they'd be 20 points ahead in the polls. He is incompetent, and keeps showing it in interviews of the last few weeks. Only today another announcement about reducing rail fares by 75%, with that being funded by Road Fund Licence. Yes, thats really going to work. Great for workers who have a rail station close to them, useless for 75%+ of the population who have little choice but to use a car/powered vehicle.
It all doesnt add up. Only extra taxing those who earn £80k+. Thats such a small proportion of taxpayers that it just couldnt happen, firstly as there would be found a way to limit their earnings by off-shoring etc, and then the amount to be taken wouldnt even cover the extra spending they have promised. I could go on, but Labour have no credence whn they talk monetary matters now.
Diane Abbott - totally incomptetent. Labour have done a great job in keeping her away from interviews.When she does do one, she hasnt got a clue. i could never vote for a party that is likely to have her in the cabinet.
Tories. Financial credence. I know the Country is in the shite with debts. But they have been reducing the deficit. And I think will continue to do so.
BoJo. Another total idiot, but, the main point, he is better than Corbyn.
We've not got any decent Leaders now.
People complain about cuts to everything, FFS, the country was nearly bankrupt, what else could they do?
A bad choice between 2 awful parties, but the Tories are slightly better than the truly awful Labour.
I see a manifesto as a direction rather than an absolute.
Maybe that’s wishful thinking
I hope everyone else avoided C4 news this evening … utterly depressing … group of previously Labour voters embracing the ‘cuddly rogue’ Johnson… they just don’t like or trust the people now running Labour. But then, who does? That they’ll vote for Johnson, despite not trusting him either, is maddening.
Vote Labour please people.
Interesting that there's been little focus on how Labour's WASPI promise may influence voting intentions of women affected.
There are about 4 million; surely they're not all existing labour voters?
At the end of the day Rone...
@ Kelvin-Unfortunately I saw it- the group comprised only those who said that they had voted for Brexit and previously voted Labour- so not any sort of random sample.
https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1201586173325594624?s=09
Anybody know what hell is going off here?
So many levels of weirdness...
Interesting that there’s been little focus on how Labour’s WASPI promise may influence voting intentions of women affected.
There are about 4 million; surely they’re not all existing labour voters?
Just about everyone benefits from Labour’s proposals (and the LibDem ones as well as it happens), plenty of analysis shows that. But people are still voting for Johnson’s team in their millions (not really Conservatives now, are they).
That channel 4 news piece did make for utterly depressing viewing
How people haven’t seen through Johnson’s ‘loveable rogue’ shtick years ago is utterly beyond me.
He’s a sociopath would casually walk past you and leave you dying in a gutter, without a second thought
How people haven’t seen through Johnson’s ‘loveable rogue’ shtick years ago is utterly beyond me
Well I think it's tiring people to be honest. Just a strong sense of his act dwindling with nothing to back it up.
Tories. Financial credence. I know the Country is in the shite with debts. But they have been reducing the deficit. And I think will continue to do so.
Despite the fact that they propose to spend and cut taxes and take us out of the EU, which will cost everyone up to 2k and will cause a drag on the economy. Fixed by the free trade deal with the US, which might take 10 years.
People complain about cuts to everything, FFS, the country was nearly bankrupt, what else could they do?
It wasn't.
Not pursue a deliberate policy of austerity, which has prolonged the pain and delayed the economic recover, as they were told by just about everyone who actually knew anything about it.
Vote how you want but don't buy the lies.
He is incompetent
You honestly think Johnson is any better? On what basis? He's shown no aptitude whatsoever, and he lies constantly.
Only extra taxing those who earn £80k+. Thats such a small proportion of taxpayers that it just couldnt happen, firstly as there would be found a way to limit their earnings by off-shoring etc
You're ignoring the other plans to raise money e.g. tech tax and so on.
Tories. Financial credence. I know the Country is in the shite with debts. But they have been reducing the deficit. And I think will continue to do so.
They cut essential services and benefits to those who need them. They kept taxes low when they could have raised them, and cut money from where it was badly needed. Which also stifled the economy. It's been discussed widely. The poorer end of society is struggling like hell because of the cuts, and you think this is a good thing?
There are two ways to reduce deficits - borrow and spend to invest, or cut everything to the bone. The former works possibly better, but the Tories chose the latter. Why? Cos they want a small government, because they don't want to have to give a shit about helping out poor people. That's the bottom line. They want to shrug their shoulders and say 'tough titty' because that is the whole concept of Conservatism. Small government - let people sort it out amongst themselves. Which sounds great until the rich and powerful squeeze everyone else until they become poor and vulnerable and hey, no-one has to give a shit.
Don't be a part of it.
as they were told by just about everyone who actually knew anything about it.
All the parties agreed significant cuts were required to get debt under control. There is no example of any other country in the world that managed to spend it's way into a boom over the last 10 years. (And Greece tried spending their way out and went utterly tits up.)
If growing an economy was as simple as borrowing and spending there would be no poor countries and every country in the world would be spending like crazy.
Talking of rail fares and labour affordability
We have the highest fares and most profitable rail companies in the world
Monthly train tickets cost:
France: £66
Germany: £118
Belgium: £144
Spain: £108
Italy: £65
Britain: £381
Interesting that there’s been little focus on how Labour’s WASPI promise may influence voting intentions of women affected.
There are about 4 million; surely they’re not all existing labour voters?
A couple of LBC presenters talked about it in one of their podcasts. It wasn't a reliable sample but they were saying in a one hour show dedicated to the issue only one voter who believed it was going to actually be delivered got through to their researcher.
That matches my perception. All the parties have gone so blatantly pork-barrel this time I don't think anyone gives any credibility to any of the bribes. So incredibly, it seems offering a 31k bribe to 4 million people might have won very few votes.
Moreover, the most Labour could find for the NHS is 9bn. Yet they had 58bn un-allocated all along! Mental.
On my FB weather page it says snow coming on the 12th especially oop north.
I guess many elder voters won’t be able to venture out. My mum certainly couldn’t even if she wanted to.
Let’s all do a snow dance.
It's not that difficult to understand working class Tory voters:
Many will have memories of the terrible Labour government of 74-79. Corbyn's Labour, with its nationalisation agenda and general left wing stance will remind many of these voters of this era.
Others will see a lack of fiscal responsibility. The Tories can be just as reckless, but as they are generally perceived as being more careful with spending (which does have some historical precedents) they are more likely to get away with it in voters' eyes.
Aspirational working class types will also not vote Labour, almost as a matter of principle. Ditto many of those who have risen to the ranks of the lower middle class.
JP
There’s a document costing everything, why don’t you give that a read.
Fantastic, please post a quote from the section of the document that explains the 58bn over 5 years for WASPI women.
Nope
😀
I knew it wasn’t in the document
😀
My annual metro card (West Yorkshire) costs me about 120 quid a month through salary sacrifice.
It's cheaper than driving of you factor in parking charges in Leeds. But if you don't commute to a city it's debatable whether it's worth it. And the service is a nightmare at times.
It’s not that difficult to understand working class Tory voters:
Many will have memories of the terrible Labour government of 74-79. Corbyn’s Labour, with its nationalisation agenda and general left wing stance will remind many of these voters of this era.
Others will see a lack of fiscal responsibility. The Tories can be just as reckless, but as they are generally perceived as being more careful with spending (which does have some historical precedents) they are more likely to get away with it in voters’ eyes.
Aspirational working class types will also not vote Labour, almost as a matter of principle. Ditto many of those who have risen to the ranks of the lower middle class.
All of that, plus I'm not especially poor and I can think of far better things to spend many thousands of pounds of my money than nationalising a load of stuff. If money was really tight how does that decision go. Shoes for the kids, or buy out the shareholders of some seriously massive firms... Which is most useful... Let me think...
Also don't forget there are a vast number of working class people with small Ltd Company businesses. The medium and big firms will just move HQ abroad and avoid the corporation tax rise, small shop owners and plumbers can't.
We have the highest fares and most profitable rail companies in the world
When taken as a whole they don't seem very profitable ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-46398947
Obviously you buy shoes... for the kids of shareholders of some seriously massive firms… 😉
and tax evading big companies can take their business with them when they go, I am shure someone else will take up the business they leave behind.
oob - yes, it's all pork barrel politics but voters can be easily persuaded by the illusion of money; particularly when it's allied to a feeling of a wrong being righted.
Regarding small number of callers to LBC, perhaps most were out working to earn money to supplement/replace their deferred pensions.....
Interesting item on C4News about a focus group with ex-Labour voters. They were asked about Johnson. "A character" they said. "Straight talking" one said. Hard to imagine anybody less worthy of being called "straight talking".
But I am lucky. I will survive a Tory government, whereas probably many of the focus group will be foc'ed. So let 'em enjoy it.
Channel 4 10pm tonight. Dispatches Growing Up Poor: Britain’s Breadline Kids
This is the real picture of what austerity by the tories for a decade has created. This is a very common picture in my local area and our Tory MP said it was lies created by labour supporters!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but if you can watch that and still put a x in the Tory box then you are a very selfish person.