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I've posted my vote and my wife has hers also.
Anyway this is all off topic. Where’s Dannyh? I was quite enjoying trolling him with silence. I thought he had more perseverence that that
<Waves>
Still here buddy - but what about you? I was getting worried I might have to source an online picture of an ice sculpture to stand in for you.
I haven't got time now, but later on I will pose the question again in a specific manner - with a couple of quotes from you.
And in other news....Ofcom reject Tory complaint about placing ice sculpture on plinth in place of Johnson.
Complaint is probably the wrong word - whingeing is more appropriate.
Holy...
Britain Elects
@britainelects
London, Westminster voting intention:
LAB: 47% (+8)
CON: 30% (+1)
LDEM: 15% (-4)
GRN: 4% (-1)
BREX: 3% (-3)
via @YouGov, 28 Nov - 02 Dec
Chgs. w/ Nov
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1201822002476134401
EDIT... ah its actually the wesminster constituency :/
I’ve posted my vote and my wife has hers also.
I've posted my vote and my wife's also. She was going to vote LibDem so I had to take pre-emptive action.
Well, Corb's has finally said sorry for anti-semitism.
And it only took the intervention of heavy weight interviewer Phil Schofield to do it.
When is Holly Willibooby going to get Boris on the sofa?
No, wait, that's made me shudder....
but what about you?
Been busy for once! Anyway on the subject of thick voters. The brexit vote as we all know had many drivers. As you know I've always contended that a primary motivation for the brexit vote was to send a message to those in power that normal people are sick of being not being listened to, and in that case it can be argued that the voters were being entirely rational.
In this general election though, it's hugely different. We have a party which is telling voters that they are listening, that they will bring in a huge range of policies that will directly benefit them, and that they will be given a sensible choice to resolve brexit as opposed to the ill-defined, snake oil version offered in 2016. On the other side we have a party which offeres the direct opposite, and a doubling down on the very policies and system which people protested against in 2016.
Yet for some bizarre reason, it would appear that the people who voted for brexit are now supporting the party who will do the opposite of what is in their interests. By any measure, that's pretty stupid. So yeah, if those same people who voted for brexit vote for the tories, then they'll get little sympathy from me. They have a massive opportunityt to put in a government which will listen to them and govern in their interests, and if they don't do that, they'll get everything they deserve.
To summarize: Brexit = stupid?
Anyway on the subject of thick voters.
Channel 4 news had a piece on focus groups. They had a bunch of working class people being asked questions/looking at TV clips etc,. and then asking for their opinions.
Most were traditionally Labour voters but not really because of Labour values but because their parents had always voted Labour.
They were showed clips of Boris and Corbyn. They like Boris just because, but they can't trust Corbyn for some reason.
After their discussions about NHS, employment etc,. they were shown a clip of Boris saying, "We will get Brexit done and then spend 2020 doing all the things that will be make us great"
They all then said they would vote for him as he is saying exactly what they have been talking about. Even though he actually really said nothing at all
Shocking.
But Daz has always argued that you can't dismiss Brexiteers as shit-thick racists.
Looks like he's coming round to the fact that the majority really are.
Turkeys and Christmas and all that...
EDIT: that Channel 4 focus group last night was terrifying. We're going to end up with a Tory government and 5 years of Boris bloody Johnson because of jellyheads like that lot
So yeah, if those same people who voted for brexit vote for the tories, then they’ll get little sympathy from me.
Don't forget about the people who don't vote Tory yet still have to put up with Tories doing them over. Or the kids of Tory voters etc.
Malcolm Tucker would never have allowed this to happen...
https://twitter.com/rowenamason/status/1201831122029699072
but they can’t trust Corbyn for some reason.
It's the beard, everyone knows that men with beards aren't to be trusted.
Now you’re getting it!!! Keynesian stimulus has its place but it isn’t a panacea for all countries at all times. (Trump is trying it now and I can’t find a single informed commentator who things it’s a sane thing to do at this point in the cycle – can you???)
Oh, irony.
Expansionist monetary policy and demand side fiscal policy doesn't make it Keynesian. In fact Keynes is against expansionist monetary policies during periods of low interest rates.
Keynes also proposed tax cuts and spending in response to recessionary conditions or pressure. He did not propose it as a solution to non recession conditions. He was in favour of protectionism though. Quite liked military spending too.
So Trump's protectionism is good, his monetary policy is not Keynesian because its at the wrong time. Ditto Fiscal policy.
Stop conflating Keynesian economics with expansionary monetary and demand side fiscal policies. They aren't the same thing.
They’ve been spending plenty. We’re currently spending more on interest on debt than we spend on welfare.
As was explained the last time you raised this red herring, that is based on ideological choice, not sound economic reasoning.
They've also spent the least in the NHS ever, once you adjust for inflation etc. Is this Keynesian? Or just ideological stupidity? Is Austerity a good idea? Does it work or is it ideological stupidity? Enquiring minds want to know.
To summarize: Brexit = stupid?
No, brexit a legitimate, if misguided, attempt to protest against an establishment which has ignored normal people for decades. Voting tory on the otherhand (unless you're one of the lucky 5%), totally stupid and self-defeating. Even if you desperately want brexit, it's still pretty stupid, as the tories have so far shown no signs that they have the faintest idea of how to make it happen.
Looks like he’s coming round to the fact that the majority really are.
Not really. There's plenty of those for sure, but I still reckon most are just normal non-political people who are pissed off at continually being ***** over. The irrational bit is that they think the tories represent their interests.
Unless you're a hedge fund manager then voting for the Tories or Brexit makes you pretty ****ing stupid in my book
After their discussions about NHS, employment etc,. they were shown a clip of Boris saying, “We will get Brexit done and then spend 2020 doing all the things that will be make us great”
They all then said they would vote for him as he is saying exactly what they have been talking about. Even though he actually really said nothing at all
These were the imbeciles who said Boris is "straight talking", right?
Unless you’re a hedge fund manager then voting for the Tories or Brexit makes you pretty ****ing stupid in my book
binners stop making the assumption that everyone who voted for Brexit is a Tory/thick as mince/racist. You and plenty of others on here are not doing themselves any favours by banging on about this. I voted for Brexit but haven't voted Tory for some 20 years and have no intention of doing so ever again.
Just imagine the uproar if the leader of a major political party and predecessor were both pictured at the unveiling of a statue to a known anti Semite and Nazi sympathiser
Oh... hang on .......
so you are not a tory...what about thick as mince and racist??
😀
(joke btw)
Do you mind me asking what your reason for voting brexit was? Do you think it will affect how you will vote in the general election?
curious to hear other opinions on here....
kimbers
Subscriber
again not entirely true
German (& other) creditors took 70-50% ‘haircuts’ (wtf is it called that?) on greek debt, which was the biggest loan restructuring ever IIRC
Yup. Which is a damn sight better than the total default that otherwise was heading their way.
Do you mind me asking what your reason for voting brexit was? Do you think it will affect how you will vote in the general election?
Same question from me too.
I readily acknowledge that I am probably one of the ‘worst’ anti-Brexit posters on here. Mainly because I simply cannot get my head around the reasons for voting Leave. Maybe you could provide an example that I could empathise with...
I promise not to come back at you directly whatever you type.
Been busy for once! Anyway on the subject of thick voters. The brexit vote as we all know had many drivers. As you know I’ve always contended that a primary motivation for the brexit vote was to send a message to those in power that normal people are sick of being not being listened to, and in that case it can be argued that the voters were being entirely rational.
In this general election though, it’s hugely different. We have a party which is telling voters that they are listening, that they will bring in a huge range of policies that will directly benefit them, and that they will be given a sensible choice to resolve brexit as opposed to the ill-defined, snake oil version offered in 2016. On the other side we have a party which offeres the direct opposite, and a doubling down on the very policies and system which people protested against in 2016.
Yet for some bizarre reason, it would appear that the people who voted for brexit are now supporting the party who will do the opposite of what is in their interests. By any measure, that’s pretty stupid. So yeah, if those same people who voted for brexit vote for the tories, then they’ll get little sympathy from me. They have a massive opportunityt to put in a government which will listen to them and govern in their interests, and if they don’t do that, they’ll get everything they deserve.
So basically whether and when people are thick or not is down to your say-so?
Well, it has been great talking with you...
CG - during the referendum campaign I didn't hear one single coherent argument for how leaving the EU would address any of the very real problems in our country. At a push I could see how people fell for the (to me, obvious) lies about £350 million for the NHS etc
Now, 3 years down the line, with all that we know now about this almighty cluster-**** (project fear?), I'm so fed up with what its done to our country (completely paralysed it!) and with the endless bullshit that its delivered (Boris Johnson is presently our prime minister FFS!) that I'm not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt any more.
Unless you're a hedge fund manager or a currency speculator or some other disaster capitalist, if you still think this whole thing is a good idea, then I'm sorry but you're out of your mind. And anyone who isn't one of the above and votes Tory is the proverbial turkey voting for yuletide festivities as far as I'm convcerned
Out of interest: why did you vote for Brexit? And how are those reasons looking now that we are where we are? How would you vote if there were a second referendum? And on what basis?
because it absolutely baffles me that anyone buys the 'get Brexit done!' bullshit presently being peddled
People still think about “the money we give to Brussels” that could be “spent on our own priorities instead”… they’ve been told the costs, but they genuinely still don’t understand that the benefits outweigh the costs several times over… it’s fingers in ears and “let’s get it done” for millions of voters.
So basically whether and when people are thick or not is down to your say-so
As if I said that. If people thought voting for brexit was the only way to register their disgust with whatever they perceive the problems in society are, then I can understand that. I can’t for the life of me understand them voting Tory though.
If people thought voting for brexit was the only way to register their disgust with whatever they perceive the problems in society are, then I can understand that.
I can’t. Even if you didn’t understand much you should still understand:
A)Even if the EU was the devil incarnate, undoing nearly fifty years of integration would come at a massive cost.
B)Kicking your main trading partner in the balls is not a good idea.
Being lied to doesn't make you thick. Believing people that you think ought to be trustworthy, like prime ministers and such, doesn't make you thick. You can lie to smart people, stupid people, as long as you use the right lie anyone can be fooled.
Voting for things that will directly harm you, if you know and believe that they will, is stupid. But fooling people into voting for things that will harm you is bread and butter to Tories, it's literally the only way they win elections, they have all the tools and all the backup and they're very good at it. (not restricted to them of course, but them in particular- they're a party of the minority that needs the votes of the majority, it's the only way they can play it)
Being fooled forever probably does make you gullible, but smart people can be gullible too.
Shocking
While I don't want to annoy dazh and rone too much, but a large part of the blame for that rests with the Labour party
No, brexit a legitimate, if misguided, attempt to protest against an establishment
Brexit was always, always going to be owned and directed by the Right. If you weren't sufficiently clued up to recognise that; then you had no business voting Out. There wasn't a caveat on my Brexit voting paper where I could mark "Out please, but I want it known I'm not a right wing bigot and this is a protest, and I don't want my vote to be hijacked and counted by Nigel for his stupid plans..."
So, I think if you were voting out as a protest, that doesn't pass the (quite low) bar for not being a bit thick, sorry.
Agree Nick. Someone else put it better than I could as well…
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1201795486048571393?s=21
Brexit was always, always going to be owned and directed by the Right. If you weren’t sufficiently clued up to recognise that; then you had no business voting Out. There wasn’t a caveat on my Brexit voting paper where I could mark “Out please, but I want it known I’m not a right wing bigot and this is a protest, and I don’t want my vote to be hijacked and counted by Nigel for his stupid plans…”
So, I think if you were voting out as a protest, that doesn’t pass the (quite low) bar for not being a bit thick, sorry.
That is about as ‘on point’ a post as I could think of.
You just had to look at the Uber-neoliberal, free market ideology espoused by the Brexit enthusiasts and it was fairly obvious the real reasons they wanted to be ‘free of the shackles’ of the EU.
They want to tear up workers rights, environmental controls, food standards and deregulate everything in sight, then turn Britain into a tax-free playground for the rich, an ask-no-questions haven for the capital of dodgy oligarchs and a regulation-free sweatshop for the rest of us. And the NHS, amongst many other things we presently accept as normal for an advanced civilised society, will pretty soon be history
Given these people’s much publicised desire to do just this - they’d hardly been shy about it - if you’d failed to fathom this out for yourself, and instead thought the spiv in the tweed jacket and the 19th century throwback in the double-breasted suit were instead representing your best interests, well.... ?
You just had to look at the Uber-neoliberal, free market ideology espoused by the Brexit enthusiasts and it was fairly obvious the real reasons they wanted to be ‘free of the shackles’ of the EU.
That's not exclusive to Brexit though. That's been around for 40 years, under multiple governments. And has now run its course. That's why the Tories have no new ideas - neolibralism hasn't served anything new up. Creaking at the seems, and distorting the money circulation between rich and poor. Little growth, a society built on personal debt, austerity and battered infrastructure etc.
That's the bit that's got to change this election.
This might be 20/20 hindsight, but I have a recollection I may have said something similar just before the referendum.
Something along the lines of ‘if you are in two minds look at the arseholes that are pushing this project’.
Basically if you are doing anything that the likes of Trump or Farage would approve of, then you can be pretty sure it is a bad thing.
But we have been here about a hundred times before so....
Yet the leader of the Labour Party has spent his entire career being actively hostile to the one organisation that has kept a check on unrestrained free-market neoliberalism in this country. And even after all this, is still fundamentally opposed to it.
While we’re on the subject of people who aren’t very bright....
It's worth remembering, though, that being pro-EU is analogous to saying that you're pro-parliament; it's a system, not a political movement. Just because it's currently dominated by a left of centre agenda doesn't mean that this will always be the case.
I'm a staunch remain voter, but I can see significant flaws in the EU: it's bloated, corrupt and generally places far too much power in the hands of people who don't really know what they're doing. I know a couple of people who have worked within the organisation, so this is not based on tabloid nonsense.
Personally, I'd like to see us remain in a reformed EU.
JP
I’m no fan of the EU in its current form either, for the reasons you’ve listed, but everything’s relative.
Overall our membership of it has been a damn site better for the country than letting the likes of the six-toed, born-to-rule pony-****ers we have in power at the moment just get on with whatever they fancy, totally unrestrained
As we’re about to find out
While I don’t want to annoy dazh
As if! I'm almost unannoyable, especially on the subject of politics. You don't spend 30 odd years at the extreme fringes if you're easily annoyed by people disagreeing with you 🙂
but a large part of the blame for that rests with the Labour party
I don't disagree, brexit has broken the labour party as much as the tories. The difference is that the tories have reverted to type and fallen into line out of naked self-interest (Matt Hancock and Nicky Morgan being perfect examples), whereas many labour people still try to maintain a principled position, which exacerbates the differences of opinion.
If you weren’t sufficiently clued up to recognise that; then you had no business voting Out.
Disagree on this though. Putting overt and ingrained racism aside (of which there is lots), the vast majority of non-politically engaged people either don't understand the EU, see it as foreigners 'ruling' over them, or see it as charity from abroad. For better or worse - and this might explain why working class people vote tory - there is a strong culture in the UK (probably everywhere actually) of wanting/needing to stand on your own two feet. It's a pride thing. Misplaced I would say, as we're all dependent on others to some extent, but it's there, and it results in things like brexit and tory governments.
Don't dispair too much binners, a lot of floating voters I know are now erring toward tactical voting.
A good mate of mine is a lib dem voter and is voting Labour due to the local numbers.
My nan, a life long tory voter isn't going to vote because she's so upset by the way things are going.
Polls are one thing, but that doesn't translate directly into seats, and the polls are in hung parliament territory.
It really is a unique election as its so swung by whether the punter wants brexit or not.
I've booked Friday the 13th off work as I'll either be celebrating or applying for an Irish passport.
I agree that the polls are as good as meaningless as this will play out seat by seat, with a hell of a lot of tactical voting going on.
I’m taking the 13th off too. Planning on staying up and watching the results come in. This is by far the most important election of my lifetime. It’s make or break for the 99.9% of the population who aren’t landed gentry, hedge fund managers, venture capitalists, Eton Oxbridge chancers or Jacob Rees Mogg (who ticks all those boxes)
kelvin
Subscriber
https://comparethetacticals.com//blockquote >OK, I know national political stuff tends not to understand Scotland... but my seat is SNP, with the Tories a worryingly close second, and Labour a little further afield at third- giving the idiots at Scottish Labour a real chance of hurting the SNP and handing the seat to the Tories, so it's pretty important.
Oh and that SNP MP is Joanna Cherry, who was responsible for the overturning of Johnson's fake prorogation. She is literally the most effective anti-brexit candidate in the election.
But this site includes a recommendation that if I want to stop brexit, I should vote Green. They didn't run last time, but teh time before they got 3%.