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Disonnance- seriously?
LD are Remain, so appealing to Remainers
Tory are Brexit
Labour are “vote for us, and then we’ll decide what we are”
Labour’s wishy washy stance is not definite enough for a roving vote. They could hoover them all up and be an actual opposition party for the first time in years
Binners - James Cleverley is (one of) the indefensible.
No boomer lives.
Labour are " we will try to negotiate a sensible leave deal and then it will go to the public to decide withing 6 months"
Now you and i may think this a daft idea but thats what it is. clear, concise and nothing like the tory press portray it as or what you claim it is
Labour are “vote for us, and then we’ll decide what we are”
Labour’s wishy washy stance is not definite enough
Not true.
New Deal in 3 months, Referendum in 6 months (between the new deal or remain).
Pretty clear and simple to understand.
LD are Remain, so appealing to Remainers
Not really. Outside of their yellow unicorn their referendum options arent defined. So not overly useful.
Labour are “vote for us, and then we’ll decide what we are”
No they are not. Its a clear referendum with a viable leave option vs remain.
They could hoover them all up and be an actual opposition party for the first time in years
You seem confused about what an opposition party actually means. Its not to blindly opposed but to represent their voters. This may or may not match the governing party.
It may not but the vote would be directly for a Labour deal (i.e probably close to Tory deal but keeping those pesky employment rights and stuff like that in place)
Which makes a very big assumption about (a) the EU willing to restart negotiations and (b) such a deal being possible, taking into account NI etc.
New Deal in 3 months? Three years of pissing about got us exactly here.
Don’t make me laugh.
‘Vote for us now to pursue our own Brexit policy, but we’ll give you a chance next year to stop us implementing it’, is a ‘clear’ policy, the argument is that it isn’t appealing to enough voters. We’ll find out next month I suppose. It’s enough for me to vote Labour in my seat, and it might ‘work’ for Corbyn as it did for Cameron, but I fear otherwise.
Which makes a very big assumption about (a) the EU willing to restart negotiations and (b) such a deal being possible, taking into account NI etc.
Considering it most likely would be closer to what the EU would want then it is likely it would work. If it doesnt then can use either Maybots or Johnsons deals.
Either way it will be a clear leave option as opposed to the fantasy leave options offered last time vs remain.
You seem confused about what an opposition party means
Bet I’m not.
a clear leave option
Do you really believe that’s what that looks like to folk who didn’t grow up in the shadow of Kier Hardie’s cap?
Scotroutes - its a constantly moving target but the EU have made it clear in the past that different red lines mean a different deal is possible ie if labour become a majority and want to negotiate a deal based around a much closer relationship then they would be willing to do so.
Labours starting position removes almost all of the issues around NI because labour want to remain in the customs union and in alignment with EU standards
Its not the position I would like - but its not impossible
But thats the promise from labour - a second ref withing 6 months. On a renegotiated deal if possible, on the existing deal if not
It’s been said quite a bit on here, but I really think it’s so important it can’t be said enough. Tactical voting is the only way Brexit is going to be stopped. The only way.
please, unless you want a hard brexit...vote tactically to remove the tory's.
It's that simple.
A new deal, if possible?
You are already back pedalling
New Deal in 3 months? Three years of pissing about got us exactly here.
The pissing about was getting deals and then having to get them through parliament. The referendum removes the parliament bit
New deal obtained (which is definitely possible in 3 months as proved by Johnson) and then put out to referendum.
No I am not. Thats exactly what I have been saying for ages.
I am 50/50 on whether a new deal could be negotiated. Its possible but not certain.
What is certain is that labour would make sure we had a second referendum in 6 months. what is not certain is what the "leave" option will be but the other option will be remain
Its not to blindly opposed but to represent their voters.
Yes it is!
So we have a tory MP saying people on benefits should be put down, Johnson comparing Corbyn to Stalin, and Rees Mogg saying the Grenfell victims deserved it because they were stupid.
And then we have Jeremy Corbyn....
https://twitter.com/ashcowburn/status/1192041175395553280?s=20
NOpe – I think thats a bit of futile debate and I wanted this thread to move on. I suggest to you like I did with OOB that you read up on the policy to understand it.
There are multiple ways that the shares to workers can be done. Companies will be able to chose whichever method makes the most sense to them
I have read it and they all end up with 10% of the value of a company removed from the owners of the companies. As we know a lot of companies are effectively owned by pension funds so this would be another raid on pensions funds. Just like the raid by removing the dividend tax credits.
Just give me one way it can be done where the value is not taken from the owners of the company.
This is not a value judgement on if the policy is right or wrong. Just we need to be clear on the maths here.
You have made an assertion without any evidence and to quote Mr Hitchens
"What is asserted without evidence can be refuted without evidence"
This is a massive policy for Labour so its important we all understand the implications.
Kimbers - your take on Peston's article is wrong; Tories not mucking up their performance on purpose.
His point is that they have been uncoordinated and lack message discipline; that is incompetence, not deliberate.
Moving on to Juncker's interview with Katya Adler - 'and he said he did not think Labour’s pledge to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement if it wins a majority in the general election was a realistic approach - although this would be an issue for his successor'.
Sure, he's on his way out but I doubt he is talking out of turn.
As we know a lot of companies are effectively owned by pension funds so this would be another raid on pensions funds. Just like the raid by removing the dividend tax credits.
Want to back that up with some facts?
Pension funds owned 3% of shares in the last ONS figurs. "our" pensions are a spit in the ocean compared to other ownership.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/investmentspensionsandtrusts/bulletins/ownershipofukquotedshares/2016
The pissing about was getting deals and then having to get them through parliament.
I thought it was doing **** all for almost 3 years because "it's going to be easy", "we hold all the cards", etc.
Want to back that up with some facts?
Pension funds owned 3% of shares in the last ONS figurs. “our” pensions are a spit in the ocean compared to other ownership.
Does not matter it will still be 10% of the value of stocks owned by pensions. Does not matter if that is 3% to 10% or 100% of the total number of stocks its still 10% stolen from the stock portion of your pension.
Correct me if I am wrong?
https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1191717303915708417?s=19
I had to re read that a couple of times..
Could this possibly be the election where politicians who lie get found out?
Johnson is such a proven liar that everything he says is now fact checked - perhaps a trend thats happening because of Trump?
I have a lot of respect for Sturgeon ( despite not agreeing on all SNP policy) because she ( at least sounds like) she believes what she says and tells the truth as she sees it. I have never heard another politician who when asked an awkward question is prepared to answer: ( I paraphrase) " I am not sure. My personal instinct is "A". the party is going to produce a policy on this but has not done so yet, there are no easy answers to this issue"
I think the contrast between Corbyns thoughtful answers to questions ( see Guardianlive) compared to Johnsons bluff and bluster will become more apparent. ad the pundits seem happier to challenge the lies
Am I just being too hopeful but today seeing the tories on the defensive and reacting to issues and Corbyn giving thoughtful answers brings me hope that we might be reaching the point where thoughful and truthful politicians may trimph over bluff, bluster, lies and soundbites
From BBC political correspondent......'Jeremy Corbyn setting a high bar for future Labour government. Says it would be judged on;
- Whether in work poverty exists in 5 years
- Whether people still sleeping rough in 5 years
- Whether people still rely on food banks in 5 years
- Whether is Brexit sorted in 6 months'
Answers, in order, are - yes, yes, yes, no.
On a different subject, Alun Cairns just resigned as Sec of State for Wales; his intention to stand as MP not yet known.
Correct me if I am wrong?
You wrong.
Firstly I was responding to your quote that pensions own the majority of companies, which is just so incredibly wrong to be an outright lie.
Secondly, as the freemarket share ownership has failed to deliver shares into the hands of the many as Thatcher era propaganda promised, this policy increases to percentage of shares owned by the many from 3 to 13%. As an average member of society you are not losing 10% of the piffling amount you have, you are gaining 10% of the whole pot. Still the vast majority will be owned by the 1%ers as now, but it will look just a little more even.
That Cairns resignation is another piece of chaos in the tory campaign. couldn't have come at a better time.
We also have the ASA banning a nine week advertising campaign about universal credit as its misleading. Now clearly that was intended as election material disguised as an information campaign but is yet another example of tory lies that has been exposed
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/06/dwp-misleading-universal-credit-uncovered-ad-banned
This is not a value judgement on if the policy is right or wrong. Just we need to be clear on the maths here.
Two things would worry me though not really relevant as only the Libdems stand a chance in my constituency...
1) A lot of maths... not just this but spending our way out of a recession ...
2) Whatever Jeremy has planned it is so far left of Sweden/Denmark it can't be done in the EU
Could this possibly be the election where politicians who lie get found out?
Johnson is such a proven liar that everything he says is now fact checked – perhaps a trend thats happening because of Trump?
.... and
A high percentage of Brexiteers don't actually care if it's true or not.
The business insider ( not a publication I know but sounds like it should be a tory friend) is now leading with Russian money flowing into the tory party. this is a story that is going to keep on running I bet. Suppressing the report on Russian interference and accepting huge sums of money from Putins pals!
Boris Johnson's Conservative Party has received a surge in donations from Russians in recent months.
Donors with ties to Putin have donated hundreds of thousands of pounds to the party.
They have previously paid for meetings with senior government figures including Johnson.
The figures come as Johnson blocks publication of a report into potential Russian influence over recent UK elections.
Johnson's senior strategist Dominic Cummings is also under the spotlight following reports about time he spent in Russia in the 1990s.
Whatever Jeremy has planned it is so far left of Sweden/Denmark it can’t be done in the EU
Really? Name one such ting please.
The liars (seem to be Tories) have been getting found out since Johnson became PM. Unfortunately as stevextc points out, it doesn't matter to a lot of people. The very people they insult keep voting for them.
Very much the Trump "I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and people would still vote for me"
The liars (seem to be Tories) have been getting found out since Johnson became PM. Unfortunately as stevextc points out, it doesn’t matter to a lot of people. The very people they insult keep voting for them.
Very much the Trump “I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and people would still vote for me”
Way before that ... way before the brexit bus... he's been spouting obvious lies for decades.. "bananas" ... and when it turns out to be false ??? "oh well it could be true"
The ideological tories and breixteers are not enough to get Johnson a majority. He needs to convert people to his cause. Playing to the 30% that support anything you say is not enough. He has to gain millions of votes to get a majority. Its these swing voters that count and lying surely puts them off?
I think it is changing, and the liers are challenged and scutanised.
They got away in 2016, they won't in 2019.
Even Corbyn seems to be on the ball.
Really? Name one such ting please.
You already named one .. stealing 10% off businesses but that is not really the point I'm making.
He's an ardent Leaver because the EU is too capitalist and restrictive for his red unicorn.
As Sweden and Denmark seem to be able to exist perfectly well within the EU his red unicorn must be well left of them.
Personally I'd like to see a Swedish style socialism in the UK but whatever Corbyn has in his head is obviously not that.
NOpe – I think thats a bit of futile debate and I wanted this thread to move on.
Please everyone, respect TJ's inherent correctness on this issue and move along peaceably.
As an average member of society you are not losing 10% of the piffling amount you have, you are gaining 10% of the whole pot. Still the vast majority will be owned by the 1%ers as now, but it will look just a little more even.
To use your phraseology, so wrong its almost a lie. The £500 cap per person means that the man in the street won't get another 10% of the value of the companies, it will get a small share with the government getting the rest.
Boris is outside no10 repeating all his Vote Leave nonsense, and complaining and pointing the finger of blame at MPs voting against Withdrawal Agreements (which he did twice, and many of his government did three times).
(And now it’s all about immigration again. And pretending Brexit is put to bed this year if you vote for him.)
(He sounds a bit rubbish, doesn’t he.)
(Repeating already fully debunked lies about new hospitals, and some weird claim that the Labour’s replacement for Ofsted would mean your kids getting beaten up at school - get used to this.)
@MSP its a wealth tax nothing more and nothing less.
I am not sure what my position is on wealth tax if I am honest. I can can see the benefit to help pay for services etc. I however can also see that it could drive wealth out of the country.
that the Labour’s replacement for Ofsted would mean your kids getting beaten up at school
Well, he is somewhat of an expert in helping to get people beaten up.
https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1143883885547331586
Repeating already fully debunked lies about new hospitals, and some weird claim that the Labour’s replacement for Ofsted would mean your kids getting beaten up at school – get used to this.
I think the themes of the tory campaign so far are hubris, complacency and entitlement, not to mention incompetence and chaos. They really do seem to think they can win by default on account of not being Jeremy Corbyn. They're going to s*** themselves when the news starts reporting on Corbyn rallies with thousands of people. I'm trying not to be too optimistic but it's looking very much like a rerun of 2017.
Certainly the early signs look good for labour and the tories are reacting to events and having to apologise for multiple things. Tories are certainly on the back foot.