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Of course voting lib dem rather than labour and ending up with a tory instead is a wasted vote
FPTP means the vast majority of votes actually make no differnce.
The only way to vote that makes any sense in the UKs broken system is to vote tactically and negatively - you vote for the party most likely to beat the part you dislike most!
OOB - as I have said several times you need to read the labour policy on worker representation and some decent analysis from differnt folk
Its not a theft of your pension. Its nothing like you keep on claiming. having read the FT analysis and the Guardians analysis its obvious that the policy is nothing like you keep on claiming
The LibDem fantasy election campaign is going to be highlight of this election.
And I'm sure the Tories will be delighted if Labour activists spend 80% of their effort trashing a party which probably stands to gain 20 seats.
The LibDem performance in this election is not going to be the difference between a Labour outright majority and a hung parliament. It will possibly be the difference between a Tory outright majority and a hung parliament.
Opposition parties fighting like rats in a sack is exactly what the Tories want.
Corbyns authoritarian leanings are more of a problem for me
Can you elaborate on those a bit? I know its tedious providing evidence for your smears but rather than just repeating rubbish why not provide a serious argument.
Remember that ‘80% of people voted for parties who support Brexit’ stat from the 2017 election? If you don’t want that to be repeated, then vote for a party that has a clear ‘no brexit’ policy. If you want to leave but don’t like Boris’ deal, or want another referendum, then vote for a party that is promising that so there can be a stat saying ‘XX% of the electorate voted for parties that support another referendum’. No vote is truly wasted as you will contribute to turnout, overall vote split etc
This.
You never know, there could be tens of thousands more feeling like you in the consituency and if none of them vote then nothing will ever change.
Yep, I'd go further, in the election we *know* that ~48pc of the electorate are feeling like us. If we all vote for what we want that's a majority for revoke and revoke will happen.
Its not a theft of your pension. Its nothing like you keep on claiming.
So you keep saying, but you never credibly say why if 10pc of something I own is given away I'm not left with 10pc less of it. I've heard the policy it for myself from RLB and it's been posted in this thread. I can find wedges of analysis that says that's exactly what it means and literally none that says otherwise. Nobody will be more chuffed than me if you can find a credible article or statement from Labour that demonstrates the policy does not involve giving 10pc of UK firms away without compensating the current owners. (If you do that I will post to thank you, if you don't I won't reply because I feel we're getting nowhere by replying to each other.)
And again - go an read the policy and read analysis of it from differnt places to get a better view
firstly - its not 10% the moment labour get in. Its 1% per year for ten years
Secondly - there is no value being removed from the company and it does not mean that this has to be done by dilution of share value ie issueing 1% new shares per year. It can be done by a buyback by management, a transfer from one group to another etc etc. companies will be able to chose how they release this 1% stake to the workforce
The thing is your view on this is coloured by your own hard right views where greed is good and might trumps right
Ref. first past the post, wasted votes etc.
UKIP never had more than one or two MPs, but despite that, they have had a massive influence due to the popular vote they stirred up over the years.
Key was that GE map from I think 2015 which showed second placers, and outwith Scotland & NI it was overwhelmingly purple.
If you're a Remainer in Eng and Wal, vote Liberal. It's as simple as that.
If you’re a Remainer in Eng and Wal, vote Liberal. It’s as simple as that.
If you are a hard brexiteer or lunatic rightwinger who is willing to have a hard brexit then yes.
Otherwise its about as moronic advice as can be given.
OOB
When a company that you have your pension invested in releases new shares to reward their execs is that theft of your pension?
Many many execs have share options that mean that if / when a certain point is reached they will be given more shares. do you protest about that? Is that theft of your pension?
And I’m sure the Tories will be delighted if Labour activists spend 80% of their effort trashing a party which probably stands to gain 20 seats.
Absolutely. Fortunately I'm not a labour activist so can carry on laughing at them safe in the knowledge I'm having zero impact on the result. I'm pretty sure labour are ignoring Jo and her megalomaniac fantasies and concentrating on the real target.
Why would it be moronic for a Remainer to vote for the only remain party on offer?
because if you vote lib dem in a labour / tory marginal rather than voting labour then you risk getting a tory MP and a no deal brexit rather than a second referendum
Why would it be moronic for a Remainer to vote for the only remain party on offer?
Leaving aside the inaccuracies in that claim. Because you will have a hard ****ing brexit in return for believing the yellow unicorns about revoking it.
Whereas if you vote tactically you will get a second referendum
Shouldnt be a hard choice unless you are a hard brexiteer or rabid righwinger (whilst there is a strong intersect not a complete overlap).
So - Cleverly the tory chair lets the cat out of the bag
"Cleverly said a no-deal Brexit at the end of the transition period was still an option, because no deal was the “default setting”. But it was not what the party wanted, he said. Asked if a no-deal Brexit was still possible, in the light of Boris Johnson’s decision to rule out extending the transition and to abandon a promise made two weeks ago to give MPs a vote on this, Cleverly said:
Ultimately, the default setting has always been no-deal. That is not what we want."
Given that the tories have also ruled out any extension to the transition period even if they ever get a WA thru parliament then its obvious they are still working towards no deal as there is zero chance of a FTA being done in the short transition period.
Its obvious that the tory party is now completely hijacked by the far right and no deal brexit is their aim
Wow - I am no fan at all of sky in any form but this is pretty devastating ( If I can get the link to work)
https://twitter.com/i/status/1192013743967932416
you never credibly say why if 10pc of something I own is given away I’m not left with 10pc less of it.
Well I'm no expert, but publicly traded shares are traded all the time, right? So all a company has to do is buy them back gradually.
Indeed molgrips - thats one way they can do it. Or the board can give up some of their shares / share options, or they can release more shares as they would do in other circumstances
And of course as we know that worker representation leads to greater productivity the possible 1% dilution of shares is balanced by an increase in the total value of the firm due to the increased productivity
Why would it be moronic for a Remainer to vote for the only remain party on offer?
A - because Labour have more chance of unseating a tory where I live than Lib Dems and even Labours chances are pretty much zero
B - I don't like anything about the Lib Dems so don't want to vote for them and help their numbers (even in a losing seat) I will vote Green as that is who I support, who I am closest to in policies and so on and would rather give a vote to a Green loser than a Lib Dem loser.
Sorry - this is distracting from the real debate about the election. Lets move it on?
Well I’m no expert, but publicly traded shares are traded all the time, right? So all a company has to do is buy them back gradually.
Imagine you have ten cars, I take one. Cars are traded all the time so you can easily buy a car back. You've still had a car nicked!
Why would it be moronic for a Remainer to vote for the only remain party on offer?
It wouldn't, and if everyone who voted remain in 2016 votes to Revoke in 2019 we will be remaining.
The Tories could have a day like yesterday repeat itself until voting day and return a majority. I'm beginning to despair that their decrepitude, arrogance, cluelessness, malevolence etc etc just won't cut through to the disinterested voters.
My MIL was boasting about voting for Brexit and Boris at the weekend. And my FIL will just quietly go along with it. I've had to unfollow friends on Facebook who've started to share brexity post. I know this is nothing new but I've got a sense of foreboding about this.
OOB - lets move it on?
What about that clip from Sky?
Wow – I am no fan at all of sky in any form but this is pretty devastating
Unbelievable. Is it just me or is the tory campaign in complete chaos? I'm really trying not to get carried away but compared to the libdems fantasy campaign and the tories thick of it re-enactment labour are on another level, and that's coming across very clearly in the media.
Remember everyone saying that Johnson's campaign couldn't be worse than May's?
It can be done by a buyback by management,
@tjagain Where would the money for this buyback come from then?
I agree - its astonishing how much chaos in the tory campaign. Rees Mogg and Bridgen both having to issue apologies over Grenfell comments. Cleverly ( whats the opposite of having an appropriate name?)letting it out of the bag that "no deal" is still their default position on Brexit.
Tories are now very much on the back foot and defensive
Whereas the labour campagin is looking considered and serious and forward looking
My bet is Johnson will make plenty more gaffes
Edit - deleted. I want to move the discussion on
Peston suggesting theyre doing it on purpose
to be fair official campaign launch isnt tll this evening & we have 5 weeks to get through before the vote, absolutely loads could change
Ultimately I think the problem is twofold-10 years in power, the last 4 particularly bruising Tories are simply fatigued
On top of that theyve forced out many of the moderates, an awful lot of women, all the genuinely smart MPs oppose brexit, those left in cabinet & the wider party that are driving them are dim, callous, bigoted and/or simply arseholes
Those that still support Brexit are idealogues , the likes of Francois, Bridgen, Fysh, Paterson, Redwood, Truss, Born-again baker, Mogg, Raab- all those that Cummings despised during the ref campaign.
My bet is Johnson will make plenty more gaffes
Indeed. What's weird is that he's been almost completely invisible so far. I wonder if they're deliberately keeping him away from the tv cameras? Does he really think he can win an election by hiding like he did in the tory leadership campaign?
I don't often agree with Robert Peston these days, but this is bang on.
edit: beaten to it 🙂
Tories also on the defensive over Russian money and the hiding of the report on russian interference in 2016.
I bet this report gets leaked at some point
@tjagain are you ignoring my question because you have realised you are wrong or did you just miss it?
NOpe - I think thats a bit of futile debate and I wanted this thread to move on. I suggest to you like I did with OOB that you read up on the policy to understand it.
There are multiple ways that the shares to workers can be done. Companies will be able to chose whichever method makes the most sense to them
I admire the certainty of tj’s belief in Labour, but question the reality of it
If voting LD would hand victory to the Tories, why don’t Labour stand for Remain?
Is it because a large swathe of the blue collar ground in support they rely on are strongly pro-Brexit?
Is that the skeleton in the cupboard that Corb’s vacillating is hiding?
There are multiple ways that the shares to workers can be done.
The way you suggested was with a 'buy back'.
Bazzer was asking: Where would the money for this buyback come from then?
It's a reasonable question you could answer with a one word answer. Quicker to answer it than to duck it.
Why would it be moronic for a Remainer to vote for the only remain party on offer?
It's been said quite a bit on here, but I really think it's so important it can't be said enough. Tactical voting is the only way Brexit is going to be stopped. The only way.
LD will only revoke if they get a majority government. This is incredibly unlikely.
In 2017 the split was:
Conservative 42.4%
Labour 40.0%
LD 7.4%
I know things have changed in the last 2 years, but a LD majority is very very far fetched. Coalition however is much more likely, but then LD won't revoke.
The best bet is Labour getting in in some form or other. That way a 2nd referendum can happen, as they have stated.
This may not be ideal, but this is the way the system works, and this is how the dice have fallen. There's no 2nd chance at this.
If Labour are the only true competition to the Torys in your constituency, if you want to remain, you have to vote Labour.
Is it because a large swathe of the blue collar ground in support they rely on are strongly pro-Brexit?
IMHO, it's that.
Plus the fact the leadership are life long brexiteers.
Plus the fact at least one of their policies will cause capital flight which Labour have said they will prevent with restrictions on movement of capital. ...and you can't be in the EU and have restrictions on movement of capital.
Why would a second referendum have a different result?
Because the prospect of being governed by Europe is much more attractive than leaving these clowns in charge?
Coalition however is much more likely, but then LD won’t revoke.
...but they would support a second ref. So the worst case scenaro voting Libdem if they get balance of power is the same as the best case scenario voting Labour. (From a Remainer POV.)
If voting LD would hand victory to the Tories, why don’t Labour stand for Remain?
What on earth do those two sentences have to do with each other?
boomerlives - the polls all show now a majority for remain
The lies of the leave campaign have been exposed as lies ( easiest negotiation ever / we hold all the cards / they need us more than we need them etc)
Demographic change
Is it because a large swathe of the blue collar ground in support they rely on are strongly pro-Brexit?
Corbyn is just doing what Cameron did in 2015… and it worked* for him. Promise a referendum to win over voters who don’t actually agree with your policy direction… ‘vote for me and then I’ll give you a chance to vote against my policy on Europe’.
(*he got to play at being PM of a majority government for a year, not sure the rest of us benefited so much)
(If you’re in a Tory/Lab marginal, vote Labour, and then vote against a Labour Brexit next year… please.)
What about that clip from Sky?
I’m thinking Cleverly must have done something more than refuse to be interviewed… KB sounds like she is properly pissed at his attitude after talking to him off set.
So the worst case scenaro voting Libdem if they get balance of power is the same as the best case scenario voting Labour. (From a Remainer POV.)
No the worse case voting Libdem is a hard brexit because you split the vote by not selecting the party most likely to win.
OOB - the worst case scenario with voting lib dem in seats they have no chance of winning ie the vast majority of seats ( If I lived in a tory / lib dem marginal I would vote lib dem without hesitation) is that it leads to a try government by splitting the anti tory vote.
Why would a second referendum have a different result?
It may not but the vote would be directly for a Labour deal (i.e probably close to Tory deal but keeping those pesky employment rights and stuff like that in place) or Remain.
If Leave wins then the Labour deal gets implemented a week later. No need to debate/vote in parliament and so on.
Sounds like a fair democratic process to me and I would rather have whatever deal Labour gets than any deal the Tories get as their intentions are very different (I would actually vote remain)
Coalition however is much more likely, but then LD won’t revoke.
…but they would support a second ref. So the worst case scenaro voting Libdem if they get balance of power is the same as the best case scenario voting Labour. (From a Remainer POV.)
Because with FPTP second place means nothing.
The focus has to be on winning seats, not getting votes spread across the country.
Does anyone listen to Fighting Talk on Five Live on Saturday morning? They have a round called ‘Defend the Indefensible’ where you have to just that for 2 minutes
That’s now James Cleverly’s life for the next month... 24/7
He was taken apart on the Today programme, having to defend Rees Mogg’s enormously callous superiority complex, rapey Tory candidates and why poor people deserve ‘putting down’