So you're not really qualified to discuss the matter...

You do seem to have a very keen interest in JHJ being wrong, can you explain why this fascinates you so much?

I've not listened to the R4 programme yet but I will.

What's the point of any discussion on a bike forum?

Various reasons, too many to list.

Solving crimes not being one of them.

Why do you keep coming back to this thread?

Because it's interesting.

Problem ?

So you're not really qualified to discuss the matter...

That's funny 🙂

You do seem to have a very keen interest in JHJ being wrong, can you explain why this fascinates you so much?

I find it interesting and depressing in equal measure, that someone who obviously cares about something so much, is so incapable of understanding the process of investigation and the meaning of evidence, that he's ill equipped to do anything about it.

I've not listened to the R4 programme yet but I will.

Then your not really qualified to discuss the matter.

Beyond all the bickering on here, you have to admire the bravery of the survivors, social workers and journalists who have been campaigning on these matters for what now amounts to decades.

And Mark Williams Thomas for exposing Jimmy Savile, knowing the links he had to so many powerful people.

Beyond all the bickering on here, you have to admire the bravery of the survivors, social workers and journalists who have been campaigning on these matters for what now amounts to decades.

And Mark Williams Thomas for exposing Jimmy Savile, knowing the links he had to so many powerful people.

Agreed JHJ

Because it's interesting.

I'll ask again, why is this so much more interesting to you than the actual subject matter of high-level child abuse and corruption? You really do seem to have quite a bizarre fascination with it.

I'm not suggesting we can 'solve' the crimes on STW but some threads on here actually do contain interesting discussion and useful information about all sorts of issues.

what did you think of the Radio 4 programme?

I haven't listened to it. If you read what I posted a couple of pages back you'll know why, I'm still waiting on an answer to that question.

What question is that oh great overlord?

Beyond all the bickering on here, you have to admire the bravery of the survivors, social workers and journalists who have been campaigning on these matters for what now amounts to decades.

I'll ask again, why is this so much more interesting to you than the actual subject matter of high-level child abuse and corruption? You really do seem to have quite a bizarre fascination with it.

If the topic is high level child abuse and corruption, then my critique of the "evidence" supplied to support it, is bang on topic.

Your critique of my motivations for posting however isn't on topic at all.

Wind yer neck in.

I'm not suggesting we can 'solve' the crimes on STW but some threads on here actually do contain interesting discussion and useful information about all sorts of issues

This thread might have had a chance of being an interesting discussion, if it wasn't for the constant posting of spurious "evidence" that's turned into yet another conspiracy theory dumping ground.

What question is that oh great overlord?

If you read what I posted a couple of pages back you'll know

I'm glad to report that from what I can see, the questions raised have been answered in the meantime.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

I'm glad you feel that way, it'll free me up to see what Mollari is up to on Centari Prime.

Enjoy... If at any point you feel you need a break from fiction to dabble in fact, you may want to have a good look through [url= https://www.scribd.com/doc/246043736/The-Royal-Family-s-Paedophile-Problem ]this[/url] to check if there's any errors, though I'm sure most of it is in order

No, I'm not following any of your links until you've answered my question. It's an exercise in futility otherwise.

Until you clarify your question, there isn't much I can answer that hasn't already been answered...

As I said, it's a couple of pages back. Do your own research.

In that case, it's already been covered...

I'm glad to report that from what I can see, the questions raised have been answered in the meantime.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

enjoy your fiction

And the same to you.

Chalk one up to Cougar for that comeback 😆

Police statement today [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/20/1400-suspects-operation-hydrant-politician-and-celebrity-child-sex-abuse-inquiry ]Guardian link[/url]

1,433 people referenced in allegations;
135 TV/Film 9.4%
76 Politicians (local and national) 5.3%
43 Music Industry 3.0%

Interesting...we'll have to see what figures come forward for

Judges
Military figures
Police officers
Clergy
Care workers

Also worth noting the relative influence of individuals depending on their profession and social circles

Interesting:
[url= http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/579523/Paedophile-Mason-lodge-GCHQ ]
One of Britain’s most influential paedophiles was Head of a Masonic lodge founded and frequented by GCHQ spies.[/url]

[img] [/img]

Though I was a bit dubious, it's [url= http://www.mercuriuslodge.uk/past%20masters%20of%20mercurius%20lodge%207507.html ]legit[/url]

He knew Leon Brittan, Cyril Smith and [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30051756 ]Jimmy Savile[/url]... Greville Janner too?

So it turns out the MP for Cheltenham from 1974-1992, Charles Irving, was a member of the Monday Club, who like Leon Brittan, Cyril Smith and Jimmy Savile, was known at [url= http://www.shoutoutuk.org/2013/10/21/filthy-britain-part-2-rape-lies-and-videotape-the-elm-guest-house-story/ ]Elm Guest House[/url]

He has also been mentioned by David, which if I'm not mistaken, is the guy from the Radio 4 program:

[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/former-rent-boy-i-abused-3885690 ]I was abused by top Tories then blackmailed to keep quiet[/url]

This passage is particularly interesting:

“Alan told me ‘Do you have any idea about the people who I know and the power they wield?’,” says David.

“He said if ‘we’ could murder 13 people on the streets of Northern Ireland and get away with it, there would be little trouble in arranging for an accident to befall a member of my family. I was out of my depth.”

As not only were members of Sinn Fein mentioned as visiting Elm Guest House, but also

[url= http://www.irishcentral.com/news/suspected-pedophile-jimmy-savile-boasted-of-ira-connections-for-protection-175218501-237755181.html ]Jimmy Savile boasted of IRA connections for protection[/url]

Esther Baker, 32, said the politician was in a group whose influential members routinely abused young girls in Cannock Chase as uniformed police officers stood guard.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/26/vip-paedophile-ring-woman-waives-anonymity-link-politician-abuse

Read that story yesterday, hopefully her actions will move the investigations forward.

Does this have anything to do with that "Pies, your time is now" graffiti on the M6 - something to do with the Paedophile Information Exchange ?

Jimmy Saville was in the IRA? 😯

Meanwhile, my apologies for taking this back on topic and away from the massive conspiracy at the very heart of every lizard, but....

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05/27/15-men-including-teen-charged-with-sex-offences-against-child-in-west-yorkshire/

It's good that the Police and Crown Prosecution Service have ensured justice for the victims in those instances, instead of protecting the offenders, as they seem to have done in the case of MPs...

And given the clear knowledge of goings on around [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1462628.stm ]Rotherham as early as 2001[/url] and the fact the [url= http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/general-news/exclusive-mp-and-home-office-failed-to-act-on-rotherham-grooming-11-years-ago-1-6913834 ]Home Office was informed in 2003[/url] not to mention [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29660345 ]missing files relating to Rotherham[/url] perhaps there was some degree of protection there too... but why? And how? Freemasons?

By the way, I'm not suggesting Jimmy Savile was [i]in[/i] the IRA, but given the known links between Kincora, Elm Guest House and Sinn Fein, it certainly lends credibility to the fact that Savile knew members of the IRA.

Why would the Freemasons be "protecting" groups of Asian men in Rotherham?

It's lizards, isn't it?

Northern winters are too cold for lizards...

Flashy, that's not what jhj is saying, stop baiting him.

No.

Simple question -

Why would the Freemasons be "protecting" groups of Asian men in Rotherham?

The lizards comment is simply a flippant way of alluding to the conspiracy idea that there's some massive all-pervading "control structure" at the heart of it all. cf the endless pictures of someone with someone, presented as evidence.

As before, the cause is laudable, the approach is laughable.

So why keep poking him?

I've been with you at several points on this thread, but he isn't making a connection between Masons and Rotherham.

Leave 'im, Flash, 'e ain't wurf it!

Yep, silly me, providing links from credible sources, as opposed to hot air from my nether regions...

Nonetheless:

Why would the Freemasons be "protecting" groups of Asian men in Rotherham?

is a good question...

Here's another good question:

Why are Muslim terrorists given so much media coverage when you are as likely to be killed by the police?

he isn't making a connection between Masons and Rotherham.

Apart from this;

And given the clear knowledge of goings on around Rotherham as early as 2001 and the fact the Home Office was informed in 2003 not to mention missing files relating to Rotherham perhaps there was some degree of protection there too... but why? And how? Freemasons?

What annoys me is that the constant silly picture "nudge nudge" nature of so much of this detracts from what is a valid and laudable cause. Throwing around innuendo, question and supposition as "fact" detracts from that. *Edit - As does the pathetic inability to answer a direct question. Makes you think doesn't it? etc.

I don't want to answer that question so here's another question alluding to what I want you to think

Actually Flash, go get him!

Throwing around innuendo, question and supposition as "fact" detracts from that.

the cause is laudable, the approach is laughable.

The links I provide are laden with fact... if we just accepted facts blindly, without questioning or suppostion, the earth would still be flat and we'd still be amino acids (maybe... after all, the basis of our entire existence is built on question and supposition)

Answer the question.

What's your answer?

I rest my case.

Pathetic.

This is an open forum for open discussion... if anyone thinks they have an answer, they're free to contribute.

What are your thoughts on the fact that Keith Harding, a known abuser, who knew other high ranking abusers, including the Home Secretary Leon Brittan and Cyril Smith, who was protected by the security services, along with Jimmy Savile, who was a close confidant of the future king, was a high ranking Freemason at a lodge affiliated with GCHQ, a government owned institution, whose extensive global surveillance the government tried to cover up?

if we just accepted facts blindly, without questioning or suppostion, the earth would still be flat

No, it wouldn't, it's still be an oblate spheroid, we'd just have a load of halfwits claiming it was round and posting pictures of the earth in the same room as Jimmy Savile as proof.

What are your thoughts

You are great at the former and risible at the later - I am not even sure you get the concept tbh. Random oh look this and then this and then this so therefore this is not proof and you dont seem to get this really basic point.
Oh look he did a bad thing and he once went here where he met Y and he knows this person who is an IRA Mason with links to the royals and the elite and therefore the Queen has a paedo network. Its not proof of anything except your inability to think correctly.

The cause is laudable your method laughable

HTH.....as if it will as you just want "facts" that agree with you.

As much as it shames me to agree with him 😛

Junkyard +1

Welcome aboard Comrade 😉

To make matters worse, I agree with Junky.

Feels so wrong. I'm going to go and find a decontamination unit somewhere.

Who knew what a unifying force he could be .....shall we send him to the middle east now Tony has given it up 😀

Who knew what a unifying force he could be .....shall we send him to the middle east now Tony has given it up

Haven't they suffered enough?

We watched "The Detectives" last night about specially trained detectives who investigate sex crimes. Very very tough job. All on iPlayer

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05whdgf ]BBC Link[/url]

Jamba, you linked to the wrong documentary

Here is the correct vid

There's positives in any situation and having a unified group of critics certainly helps iron out any minor errors before taking things to the big stage.

Believe it or not, MP John Mann:

who has been pivotal in ensuring allegations of a wide ranging VIP paedophile ring are adequately investigated, has contacted me regarding my research.

I can't go into too much detail at the moment, but in the meantime, you may want to read this, regarding Esther Baker, the woman who was brave enough to waive anonymity to tell her story of how from the age of 6, she was raped by a Liberal Democrat MP, along with Lords and Judges.

https://davidhencke.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/esther-baker-child-sex-abuse-allegations-a-challenging-case-for-staffordshire-police/

What has also emerged that quite independently two other women have come forward and made similar allegations against the same former Liberal Democrat MP. Unlike Esther these two women have not made their complaints public and still have to talk to Staffordshire Police in any detail about their allegations. Neither are known to Esther.

And to add to the complications a third survivor, a man already talking to the Met Police, about allegations in Dolphin Square, London has identified from a picture of Esther as a child, her being there.

Shocking report on Rotherham by Panorama last night:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05zv4bw/panorama-stolen-childhoods-the-legacy-of-grooming

Very concerned by the organized nature of the nationwide networks trafficking kids

All of it's shocking and truely appalling @jive but for me it's intensity of it in single locations like Oxford and Rotherham and the complicity of so many people who willfully or negligently turned a blind eye.

Police announce there are 300 potential suspects, quote from Guardian. Political correctness gone totally mad in allowing this to go on for so long.

[i]The officer confirmed most of the potential suspects were Asian men and most of the victims were white British girls and young women.[/i]

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/24/rotherham-child-sexual-exploitation-inquiry-300-suspects ]link[/url]

Excellent coverage on Channel 4 News this evening. A summary here with the interviews and news coverage http://www.channel4.com/news/hundreds-of-child-sex-offenders-identified-in-rotherham

Both Nazir Afzal and Sarah Champion, Labour MP got straight to the point. In Rotherham, Rochdale and Oxford this was an issue of predominantly ****stani men. The majority of sex abuse in the UK is carried out by white British males, but in these cases the picture is predominantly possibly exclusively ****stanai men and there is an issue that street grooming has a racial profile. ****stani men and young white girls.

What has allowed this to continue for 20 years has been an abject failure of the local authorities including the police who are predominantly white. The only explanation I have is one of a misguided sense of political correctness.

I saw that tonight. Good report. Ad it seems that at long last the the authorities are actually dressing the issue for what it is, without being terrified of the racial implications.

Interesting to note that at least 2 of the main suspects being investigated are local councillors. I can't say that came as a great shock

I was in the Houses of Parliament yesterday, at this meeting:

http://europe.newsweek.com/allegations-fly-heated-westminster-child-abuse-conference-329209

This was especially chilling:

One survivor who was placed in care in homes in Rotherham, Warrington, North Wales and Rochdale, told the audience in an earlier meeting that abuse had taken place in each home. "How was that possible?" he asked. "I would have had to have been the unluckiest kid on the planet for every place they put me in for abuse to happen. That could only have come about with planning

There was also an account from a Social worker from Cheshire who had tried to inform his co-workers of ongoing abuse and rape of young kids, who was ignored by his colleagues, then the police, then eventually jailed in an attempt to silence him.

This was not in the distant past, but within the last year.

He, along with a number of others with similar stories mentioned that Freemasons had played a part in the cover up.

@binners, agreed. It's a difficult subject to watch but I was very reassured by what I heard. Like you not a total surprise to hear some of the suspects where counselors past and present.

He, along with a number of others with similar stories mentioned that Freemasons had played a part in the cover up.

What has happened in appalling. In Rochdale, Rotherham and Oxford the issue has been one of political correctness. I really don't think it's credible to suggest that the "establishment" is trying to cover up the systematic abuse of children in care by ****stani men.

The secondary issue here is that it's political correctness in predominantly left wing authorities (Rochdale, Rotherham and Oxford are all run by the left)

Are ****stani men known for their Freemasonary membership?

The last time I was in a Freemason's lodge, I'm pretty sure the only faces I saw there were those of white men. And I live in East Lancashire where there's a larger-than-average proportion of ****stani families.

I take it you're a Freemason Cougar?

Don't worry Cougar, you take your time...

in the meantime, let's not forget that much of the scandal comes from the fact that the Police ([url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/26/rotherham-investigation-42-police-named-abuse-allegations ]42 Officers out of how many[/url]?) and council were complicit in the cover up of abuse:

[img] [/img]

That's before taking into account it was known about as far back as 2001 and reported to the Home Office in 2003...

Are we sure the blame can be laid solely on political correctness?

No, it's Freemasonry, obviously. Once again, with Cougar's question above, you ignore a perfectly reasonable question.

Are we sure the blame can be laid solely on political correctness?

Yes ! an absolute career wrecking fear of being regarded as racist.

Try a bit of a diversion on your intensive researchs : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Honeyford

think corrected this non-fact somewhere earlier in the thread opinions are opinions but some facts are simple facts

jambalaya - Member

.......The secondary issue here is that it's political correctness in predominantly left wing authorities (Rochdale, Rotherham and Oxford are all run by the left)

Oxford County Council is responsible for protection of children not Oxford City Council - Oxford County Council is Conservative controlled hence my opinion no intervention

Yes ! an absolute career wrecking fear of being regarded as racist.

@antigee, point taken

The last time I was in a Freemason's lodge, I'm pretty sure the only faces I saw there were those of white men

@jive being part of a group trying to discover the truth about child abuse is something I applaud. However I fear your motivation isn't in trying to protect children but to pursue your anti-establishment / conspiracy theory agendas. I honestly find that thought quite distressing.

I think jambys points about left wing councils being too PC are mostly true*, however it seems to have created a dreadful situation with prevailimg right wing Police attitude, which seems to have been that the these girls were 'chav' scum and virtually prostitutes, so not worth worrying about

* although I suspect its majorly influenced by the massive underfunding of social work, and fear of a repetition of the riots like those seen in Oldham etc

I take it you're a Freemason Cougar?

I'm sure you do, but unfortunately that's another incorrect conclusion you've jumped to.

I think jambys points about left wing councils being too PC are mostly true*, however it seems to have created a dreadful situation with prevailimg right wing Police attitude, which seems to have been that the these girls were 'chav' scum and virtually prostitutes, so not worth worrying about

* although I suspect its majorly influenced by the massive underfunding of social work, and fear of a repetition of the riots like those seen in Oldham etc

I don’t see it as an entirely right wing /left wing issue; it’s more to do with a fear of appearing racist, when the interpretation of being racist is anyone with the audacity to criticize the action or attitudes of a particular ethnic group. These accusations have happened in the past: re: Ray Honeyford being a classic case and that was way before the Oldham riots.
If the Police did have a prevailing right wing attitude I would imagine they would have directed this attitude towards pursuing convictions against Asian men rather than ignoring the white chav scum its blatantly obvious that the Police did nothing for fear of being seen as racist/right wing.

its blatantly obvious that the Police did nothing for fear of being seen as racist/right wing.

really any evidence whatsoever for that?

as opposed to JHJ's post which clearly shows police contempt for the victims

really any evidence whatsoever for that?

as opposed to JHJ's post which clearly shows police contempt for the victims

No I haven't any evidence that would satisfy the point you are trying to make, if you read the wiki page about Ray Honeyford Iam sure you could deduce that he was hounded out of his job because he had the audacity to criticise the Muslim community in Bradford. Are you telling me the predominantly white male police of south Yorkshire who you yourself said were prevailingly right wing sided in favour of Asian men against white teenage girls?
Saying that it was covered up because of so called political correctness is probably wrong , I strongly doubt many of the white male police officers of south Yorkshire were great exponents of political correctness, they feared that if the accusations at the time were aired they themselves would be accused of racism and it was that fear that dissuaded them from pursuing the cases.

I mentioned the left/right issue as I think the left is particularly driven by the PC agenda, add this to the electoral reality that a big part of their voter base in these constituencies are ****stani.

The police issue is more curious, if they are as racist as people say they are you'd think they would pursue this vigorously. Personally I believe the police where also afraid of being called racist and abdicated responsibility to social services.

Perhaps the PC label is not the correct one, people are afraid of losing their job and/or being called a racist so it's easier to ignore a potentially difficult situation than deal with it

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, would you be more or less likely to have concerns about being outed as a racist if you actually were one?

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, would you be more or less likely to have concerns about being outed as a racist if you actually were one?

I suppose it would depend upon the consequences you would be subjected to if you were outed !

A copper/public servant would lose their job, pension future employability, why wreck your prospects if you can turn a blind eye !

TBH if you are not a racist you wont care about someone calling you a racist as they wont be able to prove you are a racist because its not true and everyone you work with will know this.
I have had, including working for social services and YOT, been accused of racism by folk on more than one occasion. Someone once called me the racist face of the white establishment 😆
Never cared as it was all BS
In this case there is no proof just innuendo.
IME some folk hate PC and blame it for many things and the left even when it proves to be factually incorrect that they were all left wing councils I like the way you addressed that error Jamb ...best way to keep the 100% record eh

The only issue i have here is deciding who is more likely to listen to reason Jamb or Jive...... tough call.
Bows out realising what futile means

Are ****stani men known for their Freemasonary membership?

I don't know, are they?

If there are any open and honest Freemasons on the forum, maybe they can suggest where ****stani men may fit in to the structure of Freemasonry:

[img] [/img]

Once again, with Cougar's question above, you ignore a perfectly reasonable question.

My previous answers have already addressed how this is a bigger issue than simply the ****stani Abusers, from the local police and council, to the Home Office, the issue was willfully ignored and files went missing.

Whether or not this was down to Freemasonry is debatable...

Another point worth noting is that in the instance which brought about this area of discussion (quoted below), the abusers were white

There was also an account from a Social worker from Cheshire who had tried to inform his co-workers of ongoing abuse and rape of young kids, who was ignored by his colleagues, then the police, then eventually jailed in an attempt to silence him.

This was not in the distant past, but within the last year.

He, along with a number of others with similar stories mentioned that Freemasons had played a part in the cover up.