Heather, I just like ridding bikes. I'm not on a crusade, I just like peddling. If my choice offends people to the extent I'm not welcome, then I'll leave them to it. Their club, their rules, no worries. I just wanted to know if I'd overlooked something bigger. The level of aggression here i'm amazed by.
You ain't seen nothing yet. This topic will bring out the YOU WILL DIE WITHOUT A POLYSTYRENE HAT ON brigade, and there's no arguing with them.
How can you possibly not expect such a question to become a debate about the merits or lack thereof of helmets. Helmets are stupid. 30 odd years of cycling and I have never landed on my head.
I've no interest in a debate either
But I've fallen on my head, 20+mph on the road my head was the first thing to hit the concrete road after the wheel folded, totally destroyed a brand new Bell helmet and I was unmarked [on my head]
There's no way that I would have been unmarked without it, to what extent ????????????
but people do hit their heads
Easy van. Uplink, this is about choice, not if they work or not. If you start on that, this is going only one way.
STW is brilliant.
84/85 posts and the answer was given [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/you-can-ride-this-time-but-next-time-youll-need-a-lid#post-2943204 ]here[/url].
How many STWers does it take to change a lightbulb?
Uplink, this is about choice, not if they work or not. If you start on that
Eh? - I was replying to van cough cough's post about not falling on your head and I specifically mentioned that I didn't know how effective it had been 🙄
Hello? Can I add anything?
Their club their rules however silly they may be 🙂
I would take the marxist ( groucho tendency)line on this one
LOL ^^ how true. But the same answer given many times confirms it.
It's nice to hear those blokes are obviously sensible intelligent people. Just wear a ****in helmet and be done with it, if you're riding a road bike you'll look like a tart in tight clothes, not having good hair on show will make no difference whatsoever!
Sorry, I'm with the 'wear one' camp... sure it's your choice not to... but it's my choice not to ride with someone, get to know them and then be forced to assist in scooping their grey-matter off the floor.
It's all about reasonable precautions... ok, so we all look like tits with plastic on our heads... but as someone has already pointed out, I'd rather look like a tit for a couple of hours while having a laugh than potentially spending the rest of my days in a chair / bed with someone wiping my drool off my shoulder.
Actually not quite that simple with it being a public road and me acting 100% within the law, but who wants to ride where they're not welcome.
I refuse to ride with anyone not wearing a lid for the simple fact that if they come off then they've almost certainly ruined my ride. People who are a bit banged up are generally ok to get themselves home (whether that's phoning for their missus to pick them up or a gentle pootle), a head injury means waiting for an ambulance/coroner.
EDIT: Plus with helmets being a massive amount better than they were 20 years ago there isn't really an excuse not to. Too hot/bulky/uncool? Buy a better helmet then! I don't suffer from overheating with a Catlike Whisper or Kask Graphic on.
And here they are, complete with grey matter spilling out of that unhelmeted head.
Enjoy...
Fishd
It's all about reasonable precautions...
Indeed it is. However what I think is reasonable and what you do is different.
Do you wear a helmet in the pub? More likely to get a head injury when drinking than when cycling
BTW - its nothing to do with what yo look like - its how pleasant it is to ride bearheaded
schmiken - MemberI refuse to ride with anyone not wearing a lid for the simple fact that if they come off then they've almost certainly ruined my ride.
Really? - everytime an unhelmeted rider crashes they get a serious head injury? You must know some headbangers and I must be a ghost
[i]Do you wear a helmet in the pub? More likely to get a head injury when drinking than when cycling [/i]
that would be a valid point if you were doing 20mph in the pub 🙄
I'm popping out to the off licence as I think this is going to be a long one.
Anyone fancy anything? Crisps? Nuts?
More likely to get a head injury when drinking than when cycling
can i see the stats for this? Even if true you will be comparing chalk and cheese.
DS I think you might need to buy quite a few cans of bitter for what is coming and a large bar of chocolate to share. I will just have a warm pillow to cuddle and gently weep into please.
Ah - so helmets only work at 20 mph? that will be of interest to the testers who test them at 12.5 mph - and hour for hour drinking gets more head injuries than cycling I should know - I have had a few.
seriously - compulsory drinking helmets would save lives - more than cycle helmets would
I think its a good idea. Lets design a drinking helmet
[i]Ah - so helmets only work at 20 mph?[/i]
so where exactly did I say helmets only work at 20 mph ?
Can't find any obvious ones junkyard but I bet more of us have had a head injury ( cut / bruise or more) from hitting the head when drinking than when cycling.
3 decent cuts and bruises on my head from drinking and falling over, none from cycling
You? Oh you are ruddy tetotal are you not?
I'm with the 'higher risk of rider on rider collision' camp and other riders would prefer that you have a little bit more head protection as they don't want to feel/be held responsibly for you getting knocked out.
EDIT [anecdote removed]
I wear my helmet 75% of the time. That 25% I don't is local bopping. I wear it for off road and commuting.
I just do, that's why.
TJ (and others) you probably know my views on risk assessment and appropriate protection but what I was trying discus was someone else trying to impose their view of it on me, not if I should wear one and why/not. I think it may be too late for this but.... Nevermind.
Cue the emotive stories and anecdotal "evidence".
The local rides round here have a simple rule, if you can keep up you're in. You soon learn...
... to find a another group to ride with.
One pillow on its way. 😀
I was thinking about ordering a pizza, but 16 bloody quid!!!! I should start a thread about this, it's outrageous!!!! Pfft!!!
I bet more of us have had a head injury ( cut / bruise or more) from hitting the head when drinking than when cycling.
wonders if that is down to us wearing helmets when cycling and not when drinking
Ps you ***** lightweight, unless you were head butting walls to show how hard you were 😉
Sorry fourbanger - I was taking the piss.
The attitude they showed annoys me - however - their club their rules is not unreasonable - I'd rather ride with folk that are a bit more broad-minded anyway.
I object more if its someone with some authority like employer or whatever that trys to do this.
Interesting Edinburgh council have a rule that if you are cycling on council business you must wear hi viz waistcoat - but no mention of helmet. An interesting view
how comfortable it is to ride bearheaded
Animal welfare groups may disagree.
compulsory drinking helmets
Is that a helmet to wear while compulsorily drinking ?
God ,will you lot stop avoiding the OPs original question, and just tell him straight,he needs to know ,then he can move on.
Mr Fourbanger ,I am sure you are lovely,but it seems that the group you tried to join just didn't like you.
If it hadn't been the helmet thing ,it would have been something else.
Now I know this is hard,but it's probably best if you don't see them again.
Best of luck
At least 3 mates have broken helmets on our rides in falls.
None of them have suffered head injuries.
None have been injured by wearing a helmet.
All would have almost certainly suffered a more serious injury if they hadn't been wearing one.
I would choose not to ride with people who don't wear a helmet.
I ride with two good friends both of which would either not be here or not riding due to falls involving their heads hitting a tree/log headfirst. Both of which in my opinion only Walked away because they had helmets on.
I for one do get annoyed with riders not wearing them at my local trail in Cannock, if a couple of riders were to suffer serious injury then pressure would be put on the forestry commission to close the trails.
This cannot happen
K
Who would have thought a grown adult can make his own choice on whether to wear a lid or not.
Fasthaggis, i'm a nice chap i assure you. I think my lack of expensive kit is making them look way over biked. A really flash lid might just make me look the part enough to be going as quick as I do.
This one time I was at the velodrome wearing my MTb lid. Being a newb I left the peak on and boy did I hear about it. I'd had got less grief for not wearing one!
[i]Who would have thought a grown adult can make his own choice on whether to wear a lid or not. [/i]
Who would have thought we have the choice not to ride with them. 🙄
God ,will you lot stop avoiding the OPs original question, and just tell him straight,he needs to know ,then he can move on.
It was in the third post, now shut up, sit back and enjoy the show? Are you one of these insufferable people who talks in the cinema about irrelevant crap? If you're lucky this will spill over for a bit of breakfast reading. 😀
Can't be arsed reading the rest of this thread.
No way would I go on a road ride without a helmet. Tis your call though. But I'm taking sides with el club.
I was going to suggest using less garlic to the OP,but never mind.
..and Don Simon,it wasn't irrelevant crap,I just couldn't understand why you were wearing a crash hat in the cinema.It was like a Dom Jolly sketch 🙄
motorists have been found to drive faster and/or closer around cyclists wearing helmets. Though they tend to give mnore room to pretty ladies regardless of whether they are wearing helmets...
In a single, oft referenced and seriously flawed study.
The "women" that were given more room were an aging chap in a long blond wig...
All the assessments as to speed and closeness of passes were entirely subjective and the observations of a single test subject (the author).
The findings of this "study" are very questionable.
[i]to find a another group to ride with.[/i]
Yes, the crap people did. The ones who wanted to learn and wanted to get better and wanted to race stuck with it.
Dom Joly?
schmiken - Member
I refuse to ride with anyone not wearing a lid for the simple fact that if they come off then they've almost certainly ruined my ride.
Really? - everytime an unhelmeted rider crashes they get a serious head injury? You must know some headbangers and I must be a ghost.
They may not get a serious head injury but I'd think that the chances are significantly higher than if they were wearing a helmet. I respect everyone's right to wear a helmet or not, but if you choose not to, I'll choose not to ride with you. 🙂
i'm a nice chap i assure you. I think my lack of expensive kit is making them look way over biked. A really flash lid might just make me look the part enough to be going as quick as I do.
This one time I was at the velodrome wearing my MTb lid. Being a newb I left the peak on and boy did I hear about it. I'd had got less grief for not wearing one!
I get the feeling you can only ride in a straight line because you have a chip on both shoulders 😉
how did you get the introduction to this chaingang?
IIRC the velodrome staff tell everyone to remove all non essential pieces of kit including visors, I can guarantee you are not the only person to get shouted at, just one of the few to take it personally 😉
disclaimer - haven't read the last page
it's more of just a group of people that ride together, no subs, hence in my mind I'm the only one responsible for me, no one else is liable so I didn't think there would be an issue.
you say that however it could be argued (in court)that anyone organising a group ride has a duty of care to newcomers.
and with judges making comments like [url= http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=5180 ]un-helmeted cyclists who suffer head injuries may not be entitled to full compensation[/url] the club run maybe trying to cover their own back. understandable in the compo culture we have today.
fourbanger - you're Bristol way aren't you?
Which club was it? (Apologies if it's mentioned above and I've missed it).
Appreciate you could just answer 'it's my choice' but why didn't you wear a lid?
(FWIW I'm pro helmet anti compulsion but would never consider not wearing a lid for most of the riding I do - Sat morning chain-gang rides included).
ACTiV Folkestone ride out twice a week on an 'informal ride'. However, no helmet - no ride. We're not H&S Nazis, nor fashion victims. There are novice riders to World Champ silver medalists, but the general census is it's safer to wear one than not, (Trek bikes come with a sticker telling you to wear one).
If you turned up without a helmet then someone would pull an old one out for you to wear.
People who exercise their right to choice are welcome, but if you don't have a lid then we'll see you in the pub after the ride...
you say that however it could be argued (in court)that anyone organising a group ride has a duty of care to newcomers.
In our club we actively stress that you're responsible for your own safety, the club runs are in effect people saying I'm going to x at this pace come along if that suits, although we don't leave people behind on hills and wait for mechanicals it's not the job of the run leader to ensure the safety of all on the ride - nor would somone leading the way at the front be always able to do so anyway. TBH it's not people without helmets who cause stress on club runs but people who can't ride in a group or at a steady tempo who are a pain
Getting slightly on thread our club c400 members has no requirment to wear a helmet on runs or club tt's(quite a few, myself included don't) and this has never been an issue, or even raised on our forum - live and let live.
Stuey01 - MemberIn a single, oft referenced and seriously flawed study.
The "women" that were given more room were an aging chap in a long blond wig...
All the assessments as to speed and closeness of passes were entirely subjective and the observations of a single test subject (the author).The findings of this "study" are very questionable.
the closeness was measured.
but you are correct on other points. I have often thought if i saw a bloke in a wig on a bike i would probably give a wider berth 😉
There have been other studies that have found bicycle riders ride more recklessly, with a false sense of security, when wearing that 'protective' piece of equipment - the helmet.
I think helmets are stupid and I think bike riders look ridiculous and babyish/retarded wearing them. How come car drivers are not wearing helmets? Or pedestrians?
Much rather have the wind in my hair...
Not that long ago, when children played outside because parents didn't believe there was a paedophile on every street, we rode everywhere, we sometimes fell off, we never wore helmets, and none of us ever died..
Helmets are gay.
sparkyspice - MemberIf you turned up without a helmet then someone would pull an old one out for you to wear.
that is a seriously stupid attitude. old helmets shold never be used, second hand helmets should never be used, you simply do not know the history of them
Much rather have the wind in my hair...
Me too! Unfortunately my hairiest bits don't include my head...
Sorry, I'm with the 'wear one' camp... sure it's your choice not to... but it's my choice not to ride with someone, get to know them and then be forced to assist in scooping their grey-matter off the floor.It's all about reasonable precautions... ok, so we all look like tits with plastic on our heads... but as someone has already pointed out, I'd rather look like a tit for a couple of hours while having a laugh than potentially spending the rest of my days in a chair / bed with someone wiping my drool off my shoulder.
A helmet is unlikely to prevent that happening since helmets are not designed to prevent that from happening. They have been designed to offer some protection to the head in the event of a low speed crash to the floor. Besides, not all cyclists who are mortally wounded die from head injuries....
The helmet: a stupid piece of headwear that makes you uncomfortable and sweaty and look like a spaz that you will likely never need... and even when you might need it, it offers little in the way of protection.
Tell that to James Cracknell and see if he agrees you ignorant idiot
that is a seriously stupid attitude. old helmets shold never be used, second hand helmets should never be used, you simply do not know the history of them
Don't let common sense get in the way of anecdote and smug superiority TJ.
olympus - Member
Tell that to James Cracknell and see if he agrees you ignorant idiot
Of course Cracknell's accident would probably not have happened if he hadn't been severely deprived of sleep, so whether or not he was wearing a helmet could be seen as irrelevant.
I get the feeling that he keeps banging on about 'wearing a helmet saved my life' to distract from the fact that he shouldn't have been in a position to be hit by the truck anyway, thereby taking the focus away from his idiocy.
that is a seriously stupid attitude. old helmets should never be used, second hand helmets should never be used, [s]you simply do not know the history of them[/s][b] they smell[/b]
I'm not anti or pro helmet but I am amazed by how much protection some people seem to think they provide. It's a couple of hundred grams of polystyrene ffs. If we're talking about normal road/xc lids then they're designed to provide protection against cuts and scrapes in low speed falls.
As such I wear mine when mountain biking but don't bother on my road bike.
The helmet: a stupid piece of headwear that makes you uncomfortable and sweaty and look like a spaz
What a child.
A child? What for stating the truth?
How often do you land on your head when riding? I haven't landed on my head in 30 years... how often are you landing on yours?
Gribs, I take the same view. I wear one on my MTB, mainly against branches, but on the road bike when I'm doing 40Km/h plus on the hard shoulder with cars passing at 150km/h I don't see it making the difference. If it's my time, it's my time.
AnalogueAndy, I'm riding out of the country right now.
would never consider not wearing a lid for most of the riding I do
*COUGH*busted*COUGH*
Even the most laid back cyclist cooperative in Bristol insists on helmets for all rides - not exactly an oddity.
How often do you land on your head when riding? I haven't landed on my head in 30 years... how often are you landing on yours?
I've had a head injury once when road riding - in taking evasive action from an oncoming car on my side of the road during a high speed descent in slippery conditions. I hit a dirt/rock bank head first, cracked the helmet and my cheekbone, concussed myself, multiple minor lacerations. i don't think the helmet made a blind bit of difference. In hindsight I think I'd have been going slower if I hadn't been wearing one - and would have avoided the accident altogether.
Yet I STILL wear one! Can't shake the compulsion not to. I KNOW they are useless but.....
CBA to read the entire thread, but I've often seen roadies and climbers not wearing lids?????????????
They have every right to establish rules for their club, and if they are 'serious' roadies (team kit etc) they will almost certainly enjoy establishing rules about dress code, a couple of the club riders at my work mutter darkly about the lack of an appropriate 'grooming standard' at their club since they liberalised the membership rules.
As others have said clubs tend to have their own rules - some require everyone to carry tools, some frown on even tiny seatpost bags etc Its all a bit uptight tbh, there may even be a reason for this helmet rule - maybe one of the club took a bad spill in the past helmetless?
CBA to read the entire thread, but I've often seen roadies and climbers not wearing lids?????????????
I tend not to wear one when climbing, I find them quite awkward and I'm more likely to knock stones down than have one come from above me.
CBA to read the entire thread, but I've often seen roadies and climbers not wearing lids?????????????
Most climbing helmets are only designed to deflect stuff falling from above. As such mine only gets worn at loose/busy crags and in winter to keep my head warmer. I also find I tend to bang my head into stuff when I have it on.
You are a child because your arguments are either littered with flaws or are immature. If you are capable of directing me to these publised studies of drivers giving helmetless cyclists a wider berth please do, I imagine such a paper would have had the same cyclists, on the same roads, at the same time of day, the same weather conditions, same drivers and same amount of traffic, the only difference being helmet or no helmet? I imagine that the data is sufficient enough to test for real significance and is unbiased.
I don't care whether you wear one or not, but the fact of the matter is I haven't heard of any cases where NOT wearing a helmet has saved someone's life or has protected them from injury whereas I have heard many supporting the case of wearing a helmet.
But then I guess you care more about looking 'gay' or a 'spaz.'
A lot of clubs have this rule.
Replace helmet with seatbelt, bike with car and group with country. Whats the difference?
a couple of the club riders at my work mutter darkly about the lack of an appropriate 'grooming standard' at their club since they liberalised the membership rules
Actually there's nothing wrong with that. It floats my boat when the club riders turn up well presented.
Every ride is important to me, so I make sure I'm well groomed as if I was off on a date or interview.
but on the road bike when I'm doing 40Km/h plus on the hard shoulder with cars passing at 150km/h I don't see it making the difference. If it's my time, it's my time.
to be honest if you are riding on roads like this frequently you are increasing the likelihood of time being called
to get back to the OP, you are being asked to conform to a group "norm" and wear a helmet like every other rider in the group. You obviously own a helmet and it would be a minimal inconvenience. You could easily hang it off the bars to and from the meet and wear it during the group part of the ride. For some reason you want to break this group norm because of your personnlaly held views on the usefulness of helmets.
good luck forming your own/ finding a helmetless chaingang, the guys you have ridden with aren't going to change just for you and it's nothing to do with the rest of your apparel 😉
A lot of clubs have this rule.
Do they? Don't know any round here that do? Roadies seem not to be as hysterical about the subject 😉
Big n daft, you're making so many assumptions that I'll have to wait until I get a keyboard to reply.
Fourbanger - as always you have sparked off an interesting debate. The question about what is the right thing to do ultimately comes down to balancing three perspective: maximising everyone's welfare, respecting freedom and promoting virtue. Depending on your perspective, you may come to different conclusions.
Your question seems based on the concept of respecting freedom - in this case, the freedom not to wear a helmet. Even though I think you are ill-advised not to wear a helmet, I am persuaded by your libertarian concept that you should be free to choose. Equally, the club should be free to choose whether they let you join them or not (same as single sex clubs IMHO) especially if they also believe that their choice maximises everyone's welfare.
As a cyclist, however, I struggle with the strength of feeling and abuse that is levelled towards those who choose not to wear a helmet. In this thread this has been pointed at times. But is this abuse logical? I suppose you can argue that not wearing a helmet is irresponsible and (as an early post states) would impose an obligation on the rest of the club to look after you in the event of an accident. Ok, this seems fair enough. But how far does this logic hold up. As cyclists our general choice of clothing leaves us vulnerable to serious injury particularly in the most common form of injuries that involve shoulders and limbs. So aren't we also being irresponsible to rise a road bike/TT bike clad simply in very thin lycra. What about mtb without arm/wrist/knee protection etc?? Nobody jumps up and down hurling abuse about these issues and yet they could probably prevent more accidents (including serious ones) than wearing a helmet.
Just a thought and having said all of that - I think you should wear a helmet anyway 😉
Most climbing helmets are only designed to deflect stuff falling from above. As such mine only gets worn at loose/busy crags and in winter to keep my head warmer. I also find I tend to bang my [s]head[/s] helmet into stuff when I have it on.
🙄
I've split 2 helmets in 20 years of riding - that's not very many but I'm glad I was wearing a lid on those two occasions, I had a hit of a headache but my head was in one piece. I have no problem riding with someone who wasn't wearing a lid though, it's their choice. (still think you're a sandwich short of a picnic to choose to ride without though)
Interesting thread - more because of what is says about the posters than the topic. Some posters turn it into a debate about their favourite topic rather than answer the question. And some are just twits. On both sides.
The bottom line is - as was said very early on - it is the clubs choice to ride with you or not. In our MTB club we have exactly the same rule. In a road club it may be less justified by the evidence, but it is still their call. If you don't like it, you have the choice to find another club or wear a lid. Simple isn't it?
What about mtb without arm/wrist/knee protection etc?? Nobody jumps up and down hurling abuse about these issues and yet they could probably [s]prevent[/s][i] minimise[/i] more [s]accidents[/s][i]injuries[/i] (including serious ones) [s]than wearing a helmet[/s] [i] although head injuries are more likely to be fatal to the casualty than a broken limb[/i].FIFY
to be honest I think the debate on the efficacy of cycle helmets in use is a complex issue without definitive evidence as often results are influenced by rider behavior when they do/ don't wear helmets.
personally I wear one, my kids wear one, but I'll still ride a bike without one
if I wanted to ride with people who required helmet wearing then fair enough, I want to join them not the other way around
..plus the first time you DO land on your head (hopefully wearing a lid) you will wonder why you ever asked the question.
On a practical note - how do you make them less sweaty. MTB-ing seems worse that road biking. It feels like I have poured a bucket on my head.
Interesting thread - more because of what is says about the posters than the topic.
I couldn't agree more. It's quite amusing how the most obvious answer was made very early on and the thread has reached four pages with so much repetition of the solution.
how do you make them less sweaty.
fit people and those of the correct weight sweat less as a general rule.
More expensive ones have more vents but tbh I cant tell the difference between my venty one and non venty one.
I've fell on my head a couple of times mtb'ing and won't ride without a helmet if I'm doing anything above easy gravel type paths. Not sure if it'd help much in a serious crash but I feel more confident riding with one so it's good for that if nothing else. I don't think I've ever fell off a bike when I was just riding along a road or something, other than the time I decided to mess around doing skids in the ice on my road bike 😆 So I don't bother on the road especially as it's so flat in my area.