[Closed] XC numbers down?

Sutton Manor was a bit tame but I'd say the ones I did at Haigh Hall & Clayton Vale were good old fashioned XC. Lee Quarry must have a few techy bits too?

Clayton Vale is not really technical apart from a few rollers

The Lee Quarry events avoid the technical parts of the site

Think Scott are the title sponsor now.
Did them in 2011 as they were a great weekend of riding with a road sportive Saturday and MTB marathon Sunday.
They did away with the road events though, and its a bit far to travel to wales for 1 bike ride.
Definitely more of a social atmosphere to MTB marathons than the wannabe racer syndrome all to obvious in many road events.

fifeandy - Member

@Northwind, what are these noob friendly enduro's you mentioned? Only one i know of is Comrie croft, and even that has 1 stage thats hardly entry level.

Pretty much all the muckmedden events fit the bill, they'd be a great way to try your hand at enduro.

chakaping - Member

And it's funny that we don't get people complaining the competition is too stiff in enduro. Possibly because you don't get "dropped" in the same way. Though it is depressing if you keep getting caught on your stage.

@Northwind, i think the main thing that puts me off the Perth and Falkirk muckmedden events is they are so short. ~90 mins riding even on a trail bike rather than a fast bike, and i've got to be honest and say being a moderately anti-social git i'm all about the riding and not so much the atmosphere etc afterwards.

Events like that in general are a good thing though and should be encouraged.

For me i'd be more interested in a couple of fairly decent big riding days EWS style, just with more mellow timed sections.
For example opening all the gates and running a stage down gypsy glen would be my cup of tea.

Guess that shows my heart is still more in an XC style event and why i find it dissapointing there aren't more opportunities for it.

The Wiggle mtb sportive things are well attended as I understand.

I've seen (and been) a total beginner with no idea what I'm doing and been dropped within 300m and spent the last 2/3 of races on my own. When only 2 or 3 beginners turn up it's likely they don't really get to race, as said already, the pace of an XC race is eye opening. The fun of XC is the close racing with people of similar fitness/skill. You remember the battles not your overall position.

I think one solution would be to run a total beginner race at every xc event, but make it a single lap or very short time, but make entry free. That way you'd get more people just giving it a go and hopefully sticking with it.

I'd just like them to change the name from 'Fun'.

It somehow degrades the class and people laugh and mock me if i tell them i came in the top 50% of the fun class... They seem to imagine people riding round dressed as Santa and having spokey dokeys on !

That's a valid point weeksy, when I got back into racing, first race I entered sport for the same reason (and a misguided sense of fitness from strava) got absolutely annihilated rode round alone feeling like a ****. Thankfully the few spectators were super encouraging and I'm a stubborn bloke so the humiliation just made we want to get fir enough.

However, what do you call it? I'd almost say re-name and combine fun and open as sport, using a fun distance, then sport could be called enthusiast or something (giving it an e name with elite and expert). A bigger length gap between the ranking and non ranking events would reduce the number of fast guys in the non-ranking race, pushing up the number in midfield of the bottom rung ranked events too. So sport (fun and open) 2 laps, enthusiast (old sport cat) 4 laps and upwards to elite. More I think that would sort the category issue, then it's just a case of sparking the idea of racing with more people!

I suppose if you wanted to have categories with sensible names then you could have:
Entry
Enthusiast
Expert
Elite

Entry would be for first-timers, beginners, etc. Enthusiast for the weekend riders, people who can ride but don't take it too seriously. Expert and Elite for the properly fast/serious lot on carbon hardtails 😉

Not into 2 lap races. Results in 3 hr drives for 40min race.
I'd think that anyone even thinking about racing XC should be capable of riding 90mins.

I would like to live somewhere where something like the [url= http://www.worca.com/toonie-ride-schedule/ ]WORCA Toonie Races[/url] happened. I know it's not XC as we know it, but it looks excellent.

🙂

Blimey this thread is a tough one for someone in my shoes, one of the organisers at the SouthernXC!!

All of this XC chat is just brilliant, your opinion is what helps us improve, and improve we must because the one thing that matters is participation, without critical mass the series can't run 😕

To increase participation we need to make XC attractive to all of you who haven't had a go or have and been put off for one of the numerous reasons - while we are never going to tick everyone's box we must try so please keep this thread going!!

Adam_Buckland - Member

Blimey this thread is a tough one for someone in my shoes, one of the organisers at the SouthernXC!!

All of this XC chat is just brilliant, all of the opinion is what helps us improve and improve we must because the one thing that matters is participation, without critical mass the series can't run

To increase participation we need to make XC attractive to all of you who haven't had a go or have and been put off for one of the numerous reasons - while we are never going to tick everyone's box we must try so please keep this thread going!!

Has it given you any ideas ? I seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer... Whilst it's fun sometimes in the mud, i'd much rather find myself riding on a nice summer morning than a wet and horrible foggy morning.

CX has a Novice category, why couldnt that happen in XC? I appreciate it needs policing, but anyone with points on a BC licence / a ranking wouldnt be allowed to enter. Or similar...

@weeksy, i agree, but I believe participation is even lower in summer hols.

@fifeandy, but you don't currently race in fun so would have standard race length. Point taken about driving distance, but the lap length would be the same for what fun is now, and for the slower open guys 2 laps of better racing (not getting slammed and riding alone) must be more rewarding than an hour of disillusionment? Faster open guys easily can race at the current sport level. At the Nationals lap times put me in the top third of open when I'm racing sport and getting bottom half to bottom third placing so there is significant overlap.

@adam - seems like southern xc is one of the few healthy series so your doing something right!

@kryton, we only have novice women, all men just get lumped in senior and it works.

CX has a Novice category, why couldnt that happen in XC? I appreciate it needs policing, but anyone with points on a BC licence / a ranking wouldnt be allowed to enter. Or similar...

Part of the problem is having someone to go through entries and check that everyone in a Novice category doesn't have a BC license or hasn't been racing various other, much higher level, events previously.
It's a fairly time consuming task and from speaking to friends who've organised events, they just don't have the time to do this.

seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer...

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Not a big lap or a long race - just an evening flat out blast. Could be a runner? Particularly with better weather? It has to be said that a UK winter can put off even the most determined at times!

Interesting thread which I've skimmed as in a bit of a rush.

A few points from my perspective:

XCRampage is boring. In the dry- the course is rubbish. Perhaps rd 1 was packed with people hoping they'd spiced it up then getting disappointed?
There's also some quite arrogant guys racing there- I didn't find it friendly at all this year.

CX gives you 'racing'. It's a vicious circle isn't it. If more people are riding CX, then that's where you have to go to get a good spread of wheel to wheel action. Having a shorter course helps too as you don't feel as dejected if you get dropped. Wessex have also created some quality courses too! Really good fun.

Gorricks are varied and fun and retain a laid back atmosphere. Despite the leading laptimes being similar across Fun, Open and Sport, you know there will be some baggy shorted newbies and enthusiasts to race. They also get their results out pronto (as did XCRampage this year).

Weeksy- you can't have it both ways. You can't pour scorn on 'proper training' one minute, then moan that everyone else are too fit the next.

Culture- I think we are too pompous about stuff over here. For me- the roadie scene seems far too intimidating compared to other countries. YouTube is packed with friendly looking Cat5 Crit races around industrial estates in the USA and Oz. Yet there's nothing that I've found that seems remotely accessible over here.
Perhaps XC racing has the same image problem to non-racers?

Weeksy- you can't have it both ways. You can't pour scorn on 'proper training' one minute, then moan that everyone else are too fit the next.

Of course i can. Just watch 🙂

(but in my defence, i've not complained about their fitness, more that there doesn't seem to be a lot of 'normal' riders)

Look at it this way, if i go to Swinley, i'm not passed by many guys. However i'm at the back end of a race field...

The question is... how do we/they get the regular guys to enter ? You can't tell me they're not competitive, Strava figures show me that a massive number of people are both riding and timing themselves, you don't really time yourself unless you're working for goals... be that time, distance or speed, but all essentially a competitive aspect within the riding.

Part of the problem is having someone to go through entries and check that everyone in a Novice category doesn't have a BC license or hasn't been racing various other, much higher level, events previously.

Just saying that if the time it takes organisers is the only reason that improvements aren't being made it wouldn't be that hard to fix if BC really wanted it to happen

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Not a big lap or a long race - just an evening flat out blast. Could be a runner? Particularly with better weather? It has to be said that a UK winter can put off even the most determined at times!

soggy bottom summer series was like this. juniors race on a short course from 5.45, main race at 7 all categories started together, race for about an hour. I only managed one (nearly DFL again...) but it was good fun.

I'll throw my 3/- & 6d in here..

BITD I used to ride XC, yup those heady days of Roberts DogzBollox/Marin Team Tits/Klein Attitudes and those bonded yellow and blue Raleigh thingumbobs...

Those course around the Midlands(Cannock)/FoD/South(Epping) were all natural, wooded mix of flat chat and technical loops of about an hour per lap, normally 2 laps IIRC. Plenty of mixed abilities and again IIRC only one separate start for the Pros, us lot just went on behind. Now all I remember from back then was hard racing, and a distinct difference in fitness between the Pros and us lot.

I ride CX, short and long course, I've been to a few Gorricks and the ones I've been too remind me of the courses BITD, but I've seen the courses on TV of both the Olympics and the course left behind and it looks just too bland.
One reason I do ride CX is its flat chat with technical bits in, a few laps, a bit of puke, coffee and banter..

I'm happy I don't ride XC, I do think it's too serious.. I get the impression it's too insular and only for the Pros/Semi wannabes, sterile even.

CX every time, it's far removed from the perceived snooty XC scene IMO.

One of the funniest races I did last year was the soggy bottom at the beginning of Jan, really good atmosphere

[quote=ferrals ]One of the funniest races I did last year was the soggy bottom at the beginning of Jan, really good atmosphere

that was my first xc race and best result (36/49 in sport) so far, the filthy conditions suited me, i made up a lot of places on every downhill section and lost them all again every climb.

remember this:

[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1508/24165851105_54f7c1cdbb_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1508/24165851105_54f7c1cdbb_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/CPsiBg ]DSC04355 (Medium)[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/49331967@N08/ ]fully sussed[/url], on Flickr

Just saying that if the time it takes organisers is the only reason that improvements aren't being made it wouldn't be that hard to fix if BC really wanted it to happen

That seems to be part of the problem from what I see and read. BC don't have any interest in anything MTB related from grassroots level up to Elite level.

Have they done anything over the past few years to try and increase participation in any MTB format on the back of the huge surge in popularity of cycling?

Has it given you any ideas ? I seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer... Whilst it's fun sometimes in the mud, i'd much rather find myself riding on a nice summer morning than a wet and horrible foggy morning.

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, and it's because you only look at Gorrick, who don't run a summer XC series because of the other events happening! Look at the Southern XC series - you're quoting the organiser's post! 6-7 races between March and September. Slightly wider geographic spread than the Gorricks, but more variety for it.

Marin Team Tits

*fondly remembers being a Team Marin tit*

[img] [/img]

Agreed, but further away... However i do need to start considering further away things, if not for myself but for my lad.

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Would be easier to organise, so more people likely to have a go at putting the races on.

That seems to be part of the problem from what I see and read. BC don't have any interest in anything MTB related from grassroots level up to Elite level.

Have they done anything over the past few years to try and increase participation in any MTB format on the back of the huge surge in popularity of cycling?

Some of the sentiment above misunderstands BC. They are not event organisers they rely on individuals and clubs to be the organiser, they provide the structure and enablers like insurance etc. Therefore the lack of races is down to the lack of structure in MTB generally and the general culture which is more anti "committee". Some places get it right, some don't which is why the picture is so fragmented.

BC is essentially a bit of a curates egg, MTB is difficult for them and they really don't get it (in so far as there is an "it" rather than a collection of opinionated individuals who make it a bit like herding cats). The club structure isn't there in strength either which helps retain knowledge (and good and bad practice) as well as cash and equipment

The only people who can make a difference are those interested in the sport waiting for someone else to do the hard work is going to lead to continuing stagnation. There is no money in it, no recognition, just lots of hard work and begging for marshals and being nice to people who think they own you just because they paid £15 to enter the race

For me the system is broken and will continue to limp around, it will take an alignment of the stars to sort out

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

No one is stopping you from organising some

Its certainly useful for me, I'm organising a race next year, and its now definately having a "just for fun" category. 🙂

This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.

Big Dog is the best track I've raced on, I don't get the too technical aspect at all. It's just standard xc mtb isn't it?

Pivot 24/12 is another fantastic course.

I've raced the Gorrick brass monkeys too, I like the single speed category aspect, I'm never going to trouble the podium but I can race like minded folk. Would be good to have categories identified on riders somehow like stickers on the seatpost or something.

Make it more like LeMans, easily identified races in races, more interesting for more people.

Would be good to have categories identified on riders somehow like stickers on the seatpost or something.

+1.

No one is stopping you from organising some

Nor you - why don't we get together & have a crack?

Started racing winter series last year that a local club runs its £5 entry and on some lovley singletrack and fire road climbs usualy has a mixed age range of around 30 riders its simple male femaile juniors and you land whare you land
if you want to get better you have to work harder as this is a non bc event so no grouped points

BUT its not a massivley advertised event apart from on there website and xc racer which leads to me saying allot of riders not using xc racer looking for races for certain areas.

We saw oktoberfest fall this year due to low pre entry numbers and the odds are it wont be back again.
bikefest nearly dident happen this year and WAS canceld for next year due to lowering numbers and riseing land costs but have managed to secure atleast another year on site using new sections of land
i hope we manage to keep things going and bc can pull another cat out there ass or as other posters have said its off putting getting your ass handed to you on the regular.

CX has it nailed in many respects.

Short, sharp, fun with extra silliness thrown into the mix from time to time.

How does XC incorporate those elements?...

No one is stopping you from organising some

I am - cos I know what a ballache it is. I am in no way capable of being that organised.

mrlebowski - Member
CX has it nailed in many respects.

Short, sharp, fun with extra silliness thrown into the mix from time to time.

yup.

in a cyclo-cross race, repeatedly carrying/dragging your bike over/under/through a field because it's an actual un-rideable swamp (Bakewell) is all part of the fun.

the same thing just wouldn't be acceptable in a mountain bike race.

mad isn't it?

Do we basically just need Rapha to put on some XC races to give it the hipster seal of approval?

Should try some of my races sound the same being winter set one of he climbs saw even the top end running the bikes up and sliding back down was quite funny towards the end.

This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.
Big Dog is the best track I've raced on, I don't get the too technical aspect at all. It's just standard xc mtb isn't it?

I did 2 races last summer. Laggan round of SXC was pretty technical in places, I entered the Cathkin Braes round but broke my wrist practicing the lap. The Big Dog course was far from dull, but certainly less technical than either of the other courses (in defence of Cathkin I was trying out the hardest of 3 lines at one point on the course and just totally f'd it up - and probably wouldn't have used it during the race anyway). Not that I managed not to fall off of course.

My Strava informed me that the Laggan XC course took in a stage from last year's SES - and whilst the broken wrist taught me to fit a dropper, the level of skill in the field to ride it at speed, saddle up on lightweight hardtails with fast tyres was quite impressive.

To be honest, it's probably the danger that would put me off XC rather than anything else. Pads just aren't practical, you're riding a bike that's going to be compromised for descending and you're going to be blowing out of your arse or you're not pedalling hard enough. That said, there was more racing time (even racing descending time) than an enduro event for less money.

Edit - the fields seemed pretty good and looking at lap times, coming 4th in the Sport at Laggan I might have just about managed second last or so in elite, so the categories were about right.

Look at it this way, if i go to Swinley, i'm not passed by many guys. However i'm at the back end of a race field...

The question is... how do we/they get the regular guys to enter ? You can't tell me they're not competitive, Strava figures show me that a massive number of people are both riding and timing themselves, you don't really time yourself unless you're working for goals... be that time, distance or speed, but all essentially a competitive aspect within the riding.

I have (or had) a couple of KOM's round Swinley - tank traps being one of them (Just checked and I'm 8th now). I got that when I was training and yet I was no where near the front in an XC race. Strava means nothing really and certainly not when riding XC. Most properly quick MTB riders I know train pretty much on the road or on the turbo. I was only at Swinley that day for some fun rather than structured training and I certainly wasn't aiming for KOM's or any of that nonsense.

Just because you're riding round Swinley on a Saturday and not getting passed doesn't mean you're fast. And just because you're quicker than your mates on Strava doesn't mean you're going to place in an XC race.

Maybe regular guys shouldnt be entering, or stick to the fun category. And they tried to change the name in the MSG series and nobody could work out what group they should be in. So they changed it back again...

Just because you're riding round Swinley on a Saturday and not getting passed doesn't mean you're fast. And just because you're quicker than your mates on Strava doesn't mean you're going to place in an XC race.

That SO wasn't what i was saying mate 🙂

I was saying that if i'm indicative of an 'average' MTBer... then there should be a catagory where i'm reasonably competitive, otherwise how are organisers going to attract in 'average' guys ? There's no / little incentive if they're just going to prop up the back of the field riding mostly alone after the first frantic 2 minutes. I'm not saying i should be able to win a class.... but i feel i ought to be able to at least find a race where i can put in say a 50% finish as i'm not that unfit.

They could rename it "not much fun but you'll feel good afterwards"?