[Closed] XC numbers down?

Nor you - why don't we get together & have a crack?

After 25 races I'm burned out and don't have the time now as kids now take priority

If you are happy to do all the hard work I'm happy to provide my thoughts and (mis) guidance based on that experience

in a cyclo-cross race, repeatedly carrying/dragging your bike over/under/through a field because it's an actual un-rideable swamp (Bakewell) is all part of the fun.

the same thing just wouldn't be acceptable in a mountain bike race

The course has to be rideable for XC, CX deliberately puts things in that aren't

After 25 races I'm burned out and don't have the time now as kids now take priority
If you are happy to do all the hard work I'm happy to provide my thoughts and (mis) guidance based on that experience

Interesting, I may well.

Where are you based?

I'm in SW London.

As one of the Banjo Series organisers and ex SouthernXC I think there isn't really a problem with the format of XC racing or the structure of the events. We saw numbers growing over the last few years post 2012 after we put a lot of promotional effort into getting the races known out there. We always pushed Banjo as starter races for a laugh but the Southerns were deliberately aimed at the really keen racers so they didn't overlap with Gorricks. There was a progression through the series - Banjo, Gorrick, Southerns, Nationals. And it worked on bringing through talent but needed loads of effort in media and promotion.

Numbers have dropped in the last two years as we ran out of man-power and time to sustain the growth. The growth of CX has taken some riders especially at Banjo and Gorrick races but that is OK because they should cross over back to XC in the spring/summer. CX works because everybody sees it as a duty for the organising club to help out at at least one round so the workload is spread out.

The big problem I see is lack of organisers for entry level races or bigger one off events. Everyone seems to want to start off too big then panic when they don't get pre-entries and cancel. People need to step up and start taking over from the old organisers (well done Adam btw).

And anyway is it really a problem that XC racing doesn't get big participation. As long as people are riding bikes!

Weeksy, I think you are a tiny bit in denial about how fit the average cyclist is. Most entry level racers now are people who have come to it through road biking- and the bar for the average roadie is way higher than you probably think- hence why B cat on Zwift is so big- that's the level most people are at.

Also, none of your riding is anywhere near race intensity. Without at least one ride a week that is simulating a race effort- why do you expect to turn up and race and not get trounced??

In the dry- the technical aspects of most XC races aren't enough to counteract how slow 'we' actually are 😉

And anyway is it really a problem that XC racing doesn't get big participation. As long as people are riding bikes!

It is a problem if you end up pulling the plug on your series !

Where are you based?

Up north, near enough to binners to know he goes to the Vegan Deli rather than Manning's bakery 😉

Also, none of your riding is anywhere near race intensity. Without at least one ride a week that is simulating a race effort- why do you expect to turn up and race and not get trounced??

Last time at Swinley on the Kona WAS at race effort... it may not have looked it to you though 🙂

Yes but that was ages ago. People who are genuinely in to racing WANT to train for it. This isn't a five minute fix. If you want to target a series next year then you need to start planning now.
Except you won't because that's not 'fun' in your world so we'll be having the same conversation we have every year next year 😀

Weeksy, I think you are a tiny bit in denial about how fit the average cyclist is.

I disagree, I think he seems to have a very good idea how fit the average cyclist is (not very), and the entire problem is stemming from the fact that neither Cat4 road or Sport XC are accessible in the slightest to them.

Maybe [i]regular guys shouldnt be entering[/i], or stick to the fun category

That's the problem, regular guys [b]aren't[/b] entering, but that's not a sustainable way to run a mass participation sport!
It also shows a pretty bad attitude IMO.

To be honest if there were 30 guys entering fun and having a good race I'd stop any training, start consuming more beer and custard tarts and focus on fun. As we have at most four entering fun here that wouldn't work.

Hey, ! i'm a Zwift convert now.. (no, you can't quote me)... with the amount of riding/racing i'm doing now you can bet your ar5e i'll be more prepared next year 🙂

The big problem I see is lack of organisers for entry level races or bigger one off events. Everyone seems to want to start off too big then panic when they don't get pre-entries and cancel. People need to step up and start taking over from the old organisers (well done Adam btw).

IMHO you need to decide whether you want to make some cash as a business or do it for the love of it and raise cash for charity etc. The two models are different and you mix at you peril.

Big can be done Hit the North was a classic example, it is about the team aims and objectives

Surely the point here is not to fiddle about with classes but to make the races interesting for those who aren't at the sharp end (hence my random suggestions about format changes)

Another couple of ideas I've seen and liked - Erlstoke had a strava segment where the fastest through it on the day won a prize, irrespective of the overall race (shame the weather ruined it) and BBD had a 1 lap challenge which was a great laugh.

More races within races make it more interesting and something normal riders maybe able to attain to. Definitely needs a bit more fun in it, I've gone from racing several a year to 1 this season.

And I second the fact that most races seem to be in horrible weather, often I'm looking for something June - Sept and there is very little, so I end up doing sportives instead.

Why do some people here seem to think they should be able to rock up to a sport race and come mid field without training?

That's what Fun/open are for.

[quote="fifeandy"]I disagreeI agree, with one small addition, I think he is a tiny bit in denial about how fit the average [i]racing[/i] cyclist is.

It's not uncommon.

Fifeandy- but locally we have Fun and Open to cater for them. Or CX.

Why are there no Cat5 type relaxed road races though???

Ghostlymachine- exactly. The guys keen enough to race are generally keen enough to train and generally get out almost every week. I see a lot of the same people at the local circuit of XC and CX races and racing makes you quicker at racing 😉

Weeksy- why don't you just organise a group ride and have a raffle to see who's the winner this week, then you can not train and still be in with a chance of winning 😉 😀

Why are there no Cat5 type relaxed road races though???

But this then comes back to the categories and having the right people in the right group. In my opinion, sport should be that group - you're quicker than those in the fun category but you're not training 10+ hours a week. The barrier to this working is that you need to be top 15 in the country to get promoted to expert. Which is nuts!

CX has it nailed in many respects.

Short, sharp, fun with extra silliness thrown into the mix from time to time.

How does XC incorporate those elements?...

Agreed. And thinking back to when I used to race XC late 80s to early 90s, on a rigid bike at Eastway or in the Midlands it was a lot like CX now, only the Northern courses like Bosley were more MTB-like. Even our local series near Chester at the windsurf lakes was pretty much CX grade now.

The only MTB XC that's appealed to me in recent years (ie 10+ years now) has been the Welsh 100s, Kona / Merida events. There's your XC sportive, they were great events for riders of all levels and there were shorter routes available. Hard to plan a series on a longer route like that, but then if CX events don't appeal there's not a lot in the middle ground that's popular enough (with non-regular 'racers') to sustain itself.

Also, none of your riding is anywhere near race intensity. Without at least one ride a week that is simulating a race effort- why do you expect to turn up and race and not get trounced??

I said this yesterday so I'll say it again; I'm by no means the fastest rider around these parts but I do race, and although one of my old "social" crew kept up with me on an 8min flying piece of flat singletrack the other day, after he was able to talk again he was quite open about the fact he couldnt have done that for much longer, let alone an 1h 20mins.

Fifeandy- but locally we have Fun and Open to cater for them

As i've said, we dont actually have those categories, since they are at the whims of the organiser, not an official BC category with license points - if they were, the problem would be much smaller.

As it is, the option for me is a 2 lap 'novice' race, and lets face it, at ~3.8W/kg and performing quite well in 7-10hr races then novice isn't the place for me.

I'm quite happy to accept i'm not good enough for Sport (in my region at least), but at least give me a point scoring category that is at my level.

@Ghost has made quite a telling point - the gulf between the average cyclist and the average racing cyclist is huge, and unfortunately I seem to find myself in some sort of gap in the middle.

The barrier to this working is that you need to be top 15 in the country to get promoted to expert. Which is nuts!

Especially in geographic locations where not that many races are available - you could win 3 races from 3 entries and still not get promoted.

Why do some people here seem to think they should be able to rock up to a sport race and come mid field without training?

That's what Fun/open are for.

Who's said that ? Quite clearly the guys in here discussing the finishing positions do train.... they're clearly far from unfit...

Fun/Open are often just as quick as Sport.

As it is, the option for me is a 2 lap 'novice' race, and lets face it, at ~3.8W/kg and performing quite well in 7-10hr races then novice isn't the place for me.

On a decent day i'm closer to 2.4W/KG.... which tells me either i need to be 50% more powerful, or start cutting some limbs off 🙂

On a decent day i'm closer to 2.4W/KG.... which tells me either i need to be 50% more powerful, or start cutting some limbs off

Cutting limbs off certainly helps.
Lets say my W/Kg is far more impressive than my raw FTP.
Although being an out and out climber isn't particularly useful in the UK, and the lack of raw power really hurts when muddy or very rough.

Fun/Open are often just as quick as Sport.

I should hope so, they're doing at least one lap less than everyone else!

I think I remember you racing the earlier MSG's? Did you used to wear a Brooklyn racing top? Or have I made that up?

Who's said that ? Quite clearly the guys in here discussing the finishing positions do train.... they're clearly far from unfit...

Fun/Open are often just as quick as Sport.

How about here?

I disagree, I think he seems to have a very good idea how fit the average cyclist is (not very), and the entire problem is stemming from the fact that neither Cat4 road or Sport XC are accessible in the slightest to them.

Complaining that sport isn't accessible ignores the fact that there are at least one and possibly two categories below this. I don't know the relative speeds of Sport and Open but I'd be very surprised if the median speeds are the same.

Especially in geographic locations where not that many races are available - you could win 3 races from 3 entries and still not get promoted.

Still didn't get promoted. So 10 or 12 high point scoring finishes (many podiums i'd guess) still might not get you bumped up.

Sounds mad.

Complaining that sport isn't accessible ignores the fact that there are at least one and possibly two categories below this.

F* me but I swear some people cant read!
[u][b]OPEN IS NOT A MANDATORY BC POINT SCORING CATEGORY[/b][/u]

I think I remember you racing the earlier MSG's? Did you used to wear a Brooklyn racing top? Or have I made that up?

Not me buddy...

Its apparently worse than that, a guy i work with used to race sport in the late 90s and managed to finish 4th or 5th overall in the NPS and won the regional series one year and a similar set of results the year before.
Still didn't get promoted. So 10 or 12 high point scoring finishes (many podiums i'd guess) still might not get you bumped up.

That's absolutely not the case now in the UK. Only your top 7 results count, so you don't get people doing 20 races getting promoted over people who've only done 10. You may get someone who only races in Scotland who wins every race they do, plus one regional champs, which is the same value as a national race.

IIRC when I got my expert licence I was 1st in the BC sport rankings (may have been 2nd, lets pretend not), my Southern results were pretty poor, I got one 2nd, plus a 2nd in a Midlands XC and a 2nd in a Welsh XC and then 7th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st in the nationals. Can't remember if the regional 2nd was worth more than a national 7th.

I hardly dominated, I know plenty of people who made it to elite without ever winning a race, so two complete seasons racing with promotions at the end.

Good, he didn't sound very impressed with it.

That was in 2007, so it's been that way for a good while to be fair.

I wonder if they should run a points system similar to road racing where you have to attain a certain number rather than be 'Top #'.

Or maybe I should quit my whinging and pedal a bit harder.

I do remember a certain Mr Bouttell turning up to the nationals and destroying everyone in Sport. He was promptly moved up a category (or two)...

No idea, i've not been in the uk for 15 years other than the occasional holiday/business trip (and a handful of races) and i think he left about 10 or 11 years ago and hasn't raced competitively for at least that long.

So the fine details of BCs current (or 10 year old) promotion criteria are certainly lost on me. And probably him.

I do remember a certain Mr Bouttell turning up to the nationals and destroying everyone in Sport. He was promptly moved up a category (or two

Actually he wasn't, he raced the entire year in sport, and smashed everyone. They did move him straight to elite though IIRC. Dave Henderson moved straight from sport to elite without dominating sport too. It's basically on the whim of BC!

Having points thresholds for categories, as with road, would certainly help. Once you hit a points threshold you move up. Simples.

One thing to note is that not all MTB XC races are run under BC regs. Gorrick races are not, and they don't have any BC points attached. This means they can set the categories whichever way they want. It does allow fast youth and juniors to ride up (e.g. National standard juniors will often ride in Expert for the extra workout).

Seems to me there are two separate issues: can more people be encouraged to race xc? If yes rankings and categories are probably fine. If no, second issue: is the current system best for the numbers racing?

I think finding ways to encourage more people to race is better, and I'm not convinced the category system is preventing that many entrants. More positive publicity and more grass root events would do that best IMO.

If we aren't getting bigger numbers I think only one non ranking cat and a bigger difference between that race and the lowest ranking event in terms of distance would force the faster people in fun to man up and race in sport, making the sport cat bigger and more representative of the general population. Bigger fields would also mean coming nearer the end would still be fun if you were having a race.

I don't think comparing cx and xc is helpful. They are complimentary and xc should have a significant difference to cx or you may as well race one of the summer cx series

That he did. And the Thetford Winter series. By a lap if I remember correctly.

Having points thresholds for categories, as with road, would certainly help. Once you hit a points threshold you move up. Simples.

I agree on principal, but with so few races it doesn't work in practice. It's ok on the road because most serious roadies will do 30+ races a year. If you're only racing on the MTB 10 times, and that's two series of 5 races, if you move up halfway through it screws your whole season. If you carry points up you could potentially usurp someone who's been racing the whole season in the tougher category.

Southern XC are run to BC regs but still allow a bit of category swapping, it's not all that rigid.

It is possible to just ring up BC and ask for a different licence, they'll most likely give it to you so long as you don't try and go from zero points in Sport up to Elite.

I hadn't done any XC for a while so had a Sport licence when I started again, and finished second in three races on the bounce (behind Mr Boutell as it happens) so rang up and got an Expert licence instead.
They wouldn't do it when I was given a 4th cat licence by mistake though, I had to get the points!

fifeandy - Member

I disagree, I think he seems to have a very good idea how fit the average cyclist is (not very), and the entire problem is stemming from the fact that neither Cat4 road or Sport XC are accessible in the slightest to them.

THIS. People seem to be saying over and over "that's just how hard it is" "you need to put in more effort" and variations without really acknowledging the impact that has on participation. Again, this isn't a problem exactly- if you're happy for your sport to be small and performance oriented, that's reasonable. But it means you can't complain about low entries and lack of events. (I don't know if it's sustainable)

fifeandy - Member

@Northwind, i think the main thing that puts me off the Perth and Falkirk muckmedden events is they are so short. ~90 mins riding even on a trail bike rather than a fast bike, and i've got to be honest and say being a moderately anti-social git i'm all about the riding and not so much the atmosphere etc afterwards.

I guess for you, you want a more "entry level" race in terms of deadliness but not effort, which is fair enough- most of the entry level enduro races tend to be pitched low for both but you're coming at it from a different angle which means that doesn't work so well. Tricky one.

<snip>
For me i'd be more interested in a couple of fairly decent big riding days EWS style, just with more mellow timed sections.

Tour de Ben Nevis? I think you're right, races like this'd be a good addition to the year. And the perfect antithesis to what I call the enduro arms race

Has it given you any ideas ? I seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer... Whilst it's fun sometimes in the mud, i'd much rather find myself riding on a nice summer morning than a wet and horrible foggy morning.

Yes it really has. It's interesting to read all of the comments about the 'beginner, open, fun' categories as we have been reviewing this over the closed season and think we may have come up with a decent idea; we are thinking of running A race that wil combine and of these non British Cycling categories, it'll be an 'up to' 3 lap race and as long as you complete 1 lap you will get a result, not a DNF as you would in a regular lap based race, this will hopefully give us 3 races (1 lap, 2 laps and 3 laps) within one, hopefully this will mean that those who only fancy 1 lap will be in a race the same as those who are completing 3, what do you think?

Weeksy, to answer your question about the length of the season, the SouthernXC in 2017 will run 5 rounds from March to July and stop before the summer holidays because it has proven historically that the number die off significantly after this. The resurgence of CX has meant that there is the same problem in September, It seems to go like this; XC racers train in the winter/spring for a good spring and early summer season the quite understandably go on their family holiday for a rest and come back to either take part in and train for their local CX league or enjoy riding away from racing.

At the SouthernXC we are trying hard to put Mountain Bike (not necessarily XC) races on that cater as wide a range of people as possible. We really don't care what you wear, what you ride or how fast you are/aren't but what we do care about is that your enjoying it and want to come back for more. You'll find that all members of the organising team have got time to talk, at the end of your race you'll always see someone in a high viz (usually me) milling around the arena listening and chatting, come and talk to us, we'll always listen to your feedback but we also just want to hear how your race went, the bits you loved and the bits you loathed...

Complaining that sport isn't accessible ignores the fact that there are at least one and possibly two categories below this.
F* me but I swear some people cant read!
OPEN IS NOT A MANDATORY BC POINT SCORING CATEGORY

So what you really mean is that you want to have a license and points for Open/Fun?