[Closed] XC numbers down?

[quote="trailwagger"]XC race on a saturday followed by a DH race on the Sunday. You have to use the same bike/tyres for both days.Except the time that the fast XC riders on XC bikes would take out of the DH riders on DH bikes (or even trail bikes) on anything that could actually be called an XC course would be measured in quarters of an hour. You could carry your bike down most UK DH courses in not much longer than quarter of an hour. (And the mistake here is thinking that the fast XC riders are slow at DH, they really really aren't)

alwillis - Member
Wasn't that the idea of the singletrack weekender at Lee Quarry? To find the best all rounder on one bike?

mostly, it was cocking around on bikes. it was ace.

Except the time that the fast XC riders on XC bikes would take out of the DH riders on DH bikes (or even trail bikes) on anything that could actually be called an XC course would be measured in quarters of an hour. You could carry your bike down most UK DH courses in not much longer than quarter of an hour. (And the mistake here is thinking that the fast XC riders are slow at DH, they really really aren't)

Agreed, some sort of points based system needs to be devised to level the playing field. I hadnt heard of the Lee Quarry thing before but have googled it now it looks like a giggle to me.

I just thought it would level the playing field in terms of bikes.

Except the time that the fast XC riders on XC bikes would take out of the DH riders on DH bikes (or even trail bikes) on anything that could actually be called an XC course would be measured in quarters of an hour.

The point is that there wouldn't be any DH riders on DH bikes. You'd be an all rounder on an all round bike.

Except the time that the fast XC riders on XC bikes would take out of the DH riders on DH bikes (or even trail bikes) on anything that could actually be called an XC course would be measured in quarters of an hour. You could carry your bike down most UK DH courses in not much longer than quarter of an hour.

nickc - Member
as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing
TbF this (or any other magazine for that matter) has never really pushed xc racing. And Singletrack has never really promoted any sort of racing and wass never set itself up to do that.

Sure they used to more, even if it was only race results in the back of mag and product reviews

Simple question, why is cross on the up? and by inference what is MTB doing wrong? Location, advertising, using clubs to do the organizing rather than businesses?

From personal experience roadies want to give each other a kicking even on a "social ride" there is always an element of fitness based competition. MTB rides have very little to do with fitness. So when it comes to racing XC where fitness matters most weekend warriors are no where.

@amedias - surely not too hard to look at a list of names/clubs and figure if someone's pulling a fast one? Maybe a points deduction for those caught?

I think you'd find that a lot harder than it sounds on paper!

The point is that there wouldn't be any DH riders on DH bikes. You'd be an all rounder on an all round bike.

Unless you do it on points.

[quote="mrmo"]Simple question, why is cross on the up?
CX is good as the fields are big and inclusive, you've always got someone to race against, week in week out, short laps, small venue, it's cheap (both kit and entry fees) you can race multiple classes (two kids, mum, dad) on the same day if you want, and watch the elites. Or race against them. It's also always been an end of season party sport. As can be seen in Belgium. They've not quite cracked it in the UK, but it's still better than much of the XC scene.

Simple question, why is cross on the up? and by inference what is MTB doing wrong?

Simple question but great question. Cross has exploded in recent years, despite attracting pretty much zero funding from BC as it isn't an olympic discipline.

IMO there are a number of reasons - it's relatively cheap to enter, you don't need an amazing bike, the laps are short so the field isn't as spread out from the start, course layouts usually have the spectator in mind as well as the riders, it's club-based so logistically easier to put races on, the slower average speeds make it photogenic, the serious road and XC racers at the front are traditionally on their off season so it's a bit more relaxed, the risk of injury is much lower than XC, it has a vaguely hipster image, the cold weather and sheer ridiculousness of it engenders a more social atmosphere and most crucially the numbers are growing. Once this has started, it's easier to maintain and capitalise on.

It's also the best racing discipline to provide coaching for children - CX is not a technical coaching environment and pretty much any bike a child has will do - which brings them and, just as importantly, their parents to races. This is key. The parents see other parents racing and think "I could do that", and so they do, keeping their kids racing and boosting the numbers further up the age ladder.

XC is a different discipline, but I think there are things it could take from CX to try and boost numbers, particularly the shorter laps and spectator friendliness of courses. However the issue with that is it only takes account of this country - the sport has to try and ensure that the top riders are racing on courses of a technical level not too far off what they'd face when they go abroad. The Swiss are already a million miles ahead of us, difficult to see how measures like these wouldn't detract from the top end of things.

I also think the XC category system is nuts - you should be able to race up if you want to (ie enter a faster race) but no way should you be able to race down. I can't comprehend how the people who do so aren't embarrassed by doing it. For men, CX has a single open category after junior, with age categories from V40 onwards. If you're a vet, you can race 'up' and enter the senior race, but not 'down' to an older category. Simpler.

What that doesn't give you though is the ability to reward mid-pack plodders, but neither it should! This idea that you are entitled to come away from a race feeling rewarded even though you're mediocre (despite what Strava or your mates might say) is surely against the very essence of bike racing - it's a hard sport where you have to be honest with yourself, and if you want to be rewarded you have to actually do well. Going out and bursting yourself for zero reward beyond your own endorphin levels is what it's all about, or am I missing the point of bike racing altogether?

How about a format where you find the heaviest bike and rider combination, and then add weight to all the other bikes to make it the same weight in an attempt to equalize w/kg...could be interesting.

That or making everyone ride the same bike so it is less about the kit and all about the legs.

I've not tried CX, but intend to, the main appeal for me is it is about 5 miles from home so easily accessible and cheap.

The best event I've been to is Brighton Big Dog and that seems well attended.

Going out and bursting yourself for zero reward beyond your own endorphin levels is what it's all about

much more succinctly put than my own ramblings 🙂

I have a theory that an easier course would lead to more fun racing. I wonder if we could propose an experiment.

Someone plan a 'course' of wide open racing with little singletrack but lots of open fire-road and wide tracks, somewhere where it's not busy. Then we could all turn up and have a mock race, and see how it goes?

[quote=molgrips ]I have a theory that an easier course would lead to more fun racing. I wonder if we could propose an experiment.
Someone plan a 'course' of wide open racing with little singletrack but lots of open fire-road and wide tracks, somewhere where it's not busy. Then we could all turn up and have a mock race, and see how it goes?

why bother with the dirt and do it on tarmac?

XC is a different discipline, but I think there are things it could take from CX to try and boost numbers, particularly the shorter laps and spectator friendliness of courses. However the issue with that is it only takes account of this country - the sport has to try and ensure that the top riders are racing on courses of a technical level not too far off what they'd face when they go abroad. The Swiss are already a million miles ahead of us, difficult to see how measures like these wouldn't detract from the top end of things.

But isn't that solved in part by using the race series properly, National races difficult, regional moderate, and local races friendly?

Thinking about it though one issue, i guess is who organizing the races and who is paying the bills. A local club relying on good will, or someone with wages to pay.

What that doesn't give you though is the ability to reward mid-pack plodders, but neither it should! This idea that you are entitled to come away from a race feeling rewarded even though you're mediocre (despite what Strava or your mates might say) is surely against the very essence of bike racing - it's a hard sport where you have to be honest with yourself, and if you want to be rewarded you have to actually do well. Going out and bursting yourself for zero reward beyond your own endorphin levels is what it's all about, or am I missing the point of bike racing altogether?

The entire problem is there are no mid pack plodders.
Think of it like this:
Take everyone in the UK that rides bikes and randomly put them into groups of 10 people.
Then take the fittest person from each group (10%).
So we now have a pretty big group of really quite fit cyclists.
From that group, drop the bottom half of it into a Sport Category (supposed to be entry level) XC race in the UK, and they'd be fighting it out for last place.
When you find yourself in the situation that entry level is out of reach for 90% of the bike riding population, its pretty clear its a problem with the system and not the people.

why bother with the dirt and do it on tarmac?

It'd still be quite different to tarmac.

IMO there are a number of reasons - it's relatively cheap to enter, you don't need an amazing bike, the laps are short so the field isn't as spread out from the start, course layouts usually have the spectator in mind as well as the riders, it's club-based so logistically easier to put races on, the slower average speeds make it photogenic, the serious road and XC racers at the front are traditionally on their off season so it's a bit more relaxed, the risk of injury is much lower than XC, it has a vaguely hipster image, the cold weather and sheer ridiculousness of it engenders a more social atmosphere and most crucially the numbers are growing. Once this has started, it's easier to maintain and capitalise on.

Pretty much nails it IMHO..

It's interesting but the 1st ever mtb race I did was in a park and would now never be called mtb race, as at best it was more like a cx course. Then thinking about mtbing in the late 80's to mid 90's when it was at its peak in the UK, and it had a lot of elements that CX does now. Affordable bikes, good atmosphere, cheap to enter and accessible to all. Somewhere along the way XC mtbing lost that, I'm not sure how or why, but it did.

But it's not only CX on the up, but also things like Tough Mudder events, Parkrun, triathlons and 10k runs. Somehow mtbing needs to allow everyone to challenge themselves and have a good time, not just the fastest. I think the Gorricks do that well, hence, their continued success as the rest of XC falls. Likewise Enduro has that vibe at presetn, although I expect that will disappear as it all becomes more serious.

Unless you are a genuine podium contender then as someone mentioned above you are basically racing against those of similar ability around you or aiming to better a previous result. CX races tend to be in parks and the like and are a fairly compact course so there's lots of bends, off-camber stuff etc.

Our club help organise a CX event and it's well attended and lots of spectators, cowbells on hand, beer tent. Very sociable.

It'd still be quite different to tarmac.

Oh, you mean like a cX race? 😉

Less mud.

Somewhere along the way XC mtbing lost that, I'm not sure how or why, but it did.

MTBers like a laugh and a bike ride. That started off as XC because it was there. Then it became 24hr because it was dafter, and then Enduro because it was more fun.

Back then we didn't have a choice - now we do, and people have made that choice. Leaving only die-hards behind.

why is cross on the up?

For me it's appeal is I can line up in the same group as Liam Killeen, get a thorough thrashing, not be alone on the course, be lapped multiple times & no one really noticies I've come last. Hopefully UK CX will get more wacky like the US races and we'll all race in thongs and ride through beer showers whilst being heckled by monks.

I like racing XC 'cos I get to rag round like a loon blowing out my derriere in a way I never could if I went out on my own.

It's an organised course, there's martials to pick you up if you have a prang & need help, there's other folks to challenge yourself against.

Yes it's hard & yes I've never won.......but I keep coming back for more!

I have a theory that an easier course would lead to more fun racing. I wonder if we could propose an experiment.

Someone plan a 'course' of wide open racing with little singletrack but lots of open fire-road and wide tracks

I suspect this would lead to a dull race as the riders would quickly get strung out according to fitness.

The best courses I've raced have had a good combination of singletrack, fire road/grassy bits and the odd technical section - so fitness, skill and strategy all come into it.

I like racing XC 'cos I get to rag round like a loon blowing out my derriere in a way I never could if I went out on my own.

+1

Definitely doing more next year, missed it this year after selling my hardtail.

Which is fine, but where is the appropriate level of racing for the first 5 years of improvement, or for the guys that are simply not as dedicated or as fit. Where are the equivalent of division 3/4 as it were? It doesn't exist, and without that level for people to progress through and still feel like they are competing with others on a similar level then the sport is going to stagnate and decline.

This is the problem with competitive cycling in general - there is no 'Sunday League'. Even in the most inclusive discipline, CX, you've got very fit (both amongst other cyclists and certainly in the general population) folk finishing absolutely nowhere because the sharp end is really very sharp.

Yes, i agree. Can't speak for cx, but certainly road is in the same boat.
I think thats why sportives are so popular, it allows the masses of fit (but not uber fit) folk out there to go 'race' even though its not a race.
And you can hardly blame them for it either, for an average rider, looking at the speeds seen in some 3/4 races must seem so far out of reach as to be not even worth trying.
You summed it up really well with the term 'Sunday League'

On the other hand though, why should it be easy? Cycling is bloody hard work and even if there were, say, a 5th cat for road or 'beginner' for XC, what would the cutoff be? Only those who can't average 18mph for an hour? Never been in the top 10 of a Strava segment?
There'll still be someone faster either because they just turn up strong, are sandbagging, or because BC have given them a stupid licence category.

Granted, its always going to be hard work taking part in a cycle race, but clearly from my posts in this thread i think there should be racing available at roughly your level whether you can average 10mph or 30mph.
Literally any other sport you can show up, practice for 2-3 months to get the basics, and then get stuck in with others of your own ability level - why should cycling be any different?

It's called enduro and as stated before is on the rise.

fitness is important, but not the only metric that determines performance.

lol, get a grip.
The way enduro is headed a beginner would probably have a horrific smash and end in hospital before the end of stage 1.

Certanly meets the requirement as a racing format for fat lazy folks though *raises flame shield*

I rode with an enduro bloke on a YT Capra yesterday. After following me at pace down a piece of single track he said "I can keep up, but only a bit at a time, there's no way I'm doing that for an hour and twenty minutes" Later he pointed and laughed as I failed to get my 100mm travel bike over a -significantly sized - log pile.

There's the difference.

fifeandy - Member

The way enduro is headed a beginner would probably have a horrific smash and end in hospital before the end of stage 1.

If they're unskilled and decide to enter a high end race, sure. There's not as many entry level events out there as I'd like but there's still enough to let people give it a go without inevitable #endurodeath.

The comparison with enduro is interesting actually, if you're willing to think about it like a grown up.

XC = categories by ability, and by age after 40
Enduro = categories by age, plus elite

You need to be very, very good to get a podium or even top 10 in any (male) category in an enduro.

By contrast I was top 10 in the last two XC races I did (and I don't think I'm a sandbagger).

Are you possibly just entering the wrong races fifeandy?

I don't actually have a choice of races, its SXC or nothing, there are no 'local' level races, or if there are they are so badly publicised that even someone actively looking for them cant find them.

I'm under no illusion that the situation is better in some areas of the country, but we've had enough people say a similar thing to know its fairly widespread outside the southeast.

@Northwind, what are these noob friendly enduro's you mentioned? Only one i know of is Comrie croft, and even that has 1 stage thats hardly entry level.

[i]Edit:[/i] Just remembered the two muckmedden events

Also image is a huge issue in the UK. Chipps can say there is no interest and BC are to blame, but he needs a hard look in the mirror, as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing. How will people do something or become interested if they aren't aware of it?

To be fair the website has aided a few series, the mag hasn't

Getting into print is harder, results are boring, interesting stories hard to come by, pictures not as dramatic as they need to be etc etc

I understand that organisers want people to attend the races but I don't feel that they should water down their races so people attend. For me, racing is racing. You strap on a plate, sharpen you elbows and race. I don't mean be rude or anything but it's meant to be competitive.

But there needs to be gateway events, it can be done but the organiser needs to want to do it and needs support from media, sponsors and trade

My local series (Midweek Madness) seems to attract a good spread of abilities and I'm seeing some crossover from enduro and DH. I don't think the future is necessarily bleak for XC

This is the problem with competitive cycling in general - there is no 'Sunday League'. Even in the most inclusive discipline, CX, you've got very fit (both amongst other cyclists and certainly in the general population) folk finishing absolutely nowhere because the sharp end is really very sharp.

The thing is in cx everyone is happy because it's solely age based, so the ability spread is huge. I think it also helps being time orientated, everyone finishes within 5-10 minutes of the cut off, whether they've done 6 laps or twelve, so there is a buzz and a good bit of banter around the finish line. Compare to xc where if you've been hammered the person in front of you might have finished 10 minutes ago and already be in the car and on the way home!

If xc racing was popular there would be the 'Sunday league' as fun cat would have a sizeable group in and this would feed into open or sport as people got more confident. I guess to a certain extent it's cyclical but I think it would need a concerted effort from interested parties and the media to turn the tide, it may not even be possible. Even when local below-regional events are put on htey are poorly attended round here, despite getting rave reviews by people who do have a crack

I don't actually have a choice of races, its SXC or nothing, there are no 'local' level races, or if there are they are so badly publicised that even someone actively looking for them cant find them.

And people are not deciding to fill the void

If xc racing was popular there would be the 'Sunday league' as fun cat would have a sizeable group in and this would feed into open or sport as people got more confident. I guess to a certain extent it's cyclical but I think it would need a concerted effort from interested parties and the media to turn the tide, it may not even be possible. Even when local below-regional events are put on htey are poorly attended round here.

It is getting the critical mass in people willing to do the work to make an event work well that stops this, anyone who does step up eventually burns out or has their available time compromised at some point

CX works because the road clubs structure essentially manages this issue, mtbers don't organise in the same way so it doesn't work

i havent raced xc for maybe 7 or 8 years. but i was going to enter the landegla xc race this weekend which i now cant. Can anyone reccomend an xc race in the west midlands/ wales are in the next couple of months? I would prefer it to be a bit more techy rather than racing round fields.

The sandbaggers are people who enter in a lower class than they're capable of?

I only entered a few races before I was old enough to be a veteran, and didn't have a clue what any of the classes meant, so now I'm a vet I don't have to worry about points and stuff I just do it for fun and a challenge.

The 1.5hr Gorricks are really good fun, the technicality is about right for me too. Have had some really good races where I've raced with people over a lap or so thinking they're going to leave me behind soon and suddenly I get past them.

The longer Gorricks I've sometimes spent half of riding solo, it's nice to eventually find another rider. This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.

CX doesn't appeal I don't have the bike for it, and for me it seems a bit too half-hearted approach to off-road.

@big n daft, in Wales the regional series has individual races organised by separate clubs so same as cx.

the courses are essentially long CX events, but it's XC so not all bad

Sutton Manor was a bit tame but I'd say the ones I did at Haigh Hall & Clayton Vale were good old fashioned XC. Lee Quarry must have a few techy bits too?

Fifeandy - It seems odd that the series you enter has no open category - is it intended for serious racers only? Could it be a geographical thing that there are just not enough elite/expert racers within range?

EDIT: And it's funny that we don't get people complaining the competition is too stiff in enduro. Possibly because you don't get "dropped" in the same way. Though it is depressing if you keep getting caught on your stage.

The sportive comparison is interesting.

Free weeks ago I did the Viking Challenge. A non-competitive 35 or 50km XC event. You were given a time for the course but there was no official race result as such (the course used bridleways so obviously no legal racing).

The riding was non-technical on the whole (except for a few muddy sections) but was one of the most fun days out I've had on a bike. Riding with mates, raising a bit for charity, and sharing the event with 1500 other 'grass roots' riders.

Maybe this is where entry level XC is heading? No real competitive pressure other than to get round (and for some that was a true challenge to fitness and/or equipment).

Ticks all the boxes for participation, but wouldn't easily bridge the gap into 'proper' XC racing.

Them sort of xc events seem very popular yes. Gorrick do a few too and always well attended

XC Sportives...

CRC Marathons? Or whoever the sponsor is now..?