[Closed] XC numbers down?

Re comments about w/kg.. when I came last in sport I was the fittest I've been 72kg/279ftp gave me a 3.8w/kg.

alwillis - Member

I appreciate that not everyone wants to go through their the process of taking a kicking and training super hard just to not get dropped, so those people need to get together and race each other rather than complaining...

Most of the punters/bimblers* we're talking about here, aren't complaining, they're just not xc racing. They're off doing half a dozen other fun things with their weekends/lives. They're happy as pigs in that stuff that pigs like.

(*this is me)

the problem is that races need to attract the average punter, they need dozens (hundreds?) of largely useless** people to pay £20 in return for an hour or so of bike racing, and have so much fun they're happy to do it again, and again, etc. The question is how?

(**me again)

Seems like XC has got a whole load of problems, different ones depending who you ask.

Those of you complaining about getting a kicking in Sport, how seriously do you take it with training, weight etc? Just wondering if you are fast, dedicated racers or weekend warriors giving it a go?

I used to enter sport in local races back in the 90s, where I'd be fighting to get out of the bottom third. I would expect it to still be a tough category at any level, but it's surprising to hear that some series just jump from fun to sport.

I know a few people who like myself do the odd XC race, are reasonably fit but are in no way dedicated to the discipline - and I think having an open category is vital to allow progression.

My local series (Midweek Madness) seems to attract a good spread of abilities and I'm seeing some crossover from enduro and DH. I don't think the future is necessarily bleak for XC and I think it could even feed off of the increasing focus on fitness in enduro.

Agree with what you're saying, but that's not going to happen in my world. Riding is mostly about the enjoyment, the pleasure, the passion. Training is purely about the killing yourself in a souless way to hit whatever that days goals and targets are, be that FTP, tempo, recovery etc... It's sucking the 'pleasure' out of the riding, both indoors and outdoors.

I agree with that, even when I was training seriously (as seriously as I got anyway) it still needs to be fun, otherwise why bother?

Cmparing my times with Sport around here and I'd be placing about 10th instead of 30th in Vets - must have had a few characters at your race 😉

Training is purely about the killing yourself in a souless way to hit whatever that days goals and targets are,

It doesn't have be though. OK, so I may have intervalled the **** out of legs midweek, but I enjoyed "intervalling" my way to/from our Saturday easy ride (z2), and gaining a top 3 Strava on one of the climbs, followed by a social MTB ride yesterday within which there was plenty of opportunity to pull out some interval type riding - 8 mins over threshold on singletrack isn't to be sniffed at. I thouroughly enjoyed that, and the slower banter-ridden bits (z2/rest).

But why raise the question of w/kg if you have no intention of improving it or racing?

Those of you complaining about getting a kicking in Sport, how seriously do you take it with training,

My 'best' season had me doing between 12 and 15 hours a week, a coach and training with power. I was around 4w/kg and my best position at a Nationals was 56th.

It just sounds a bit like complaining that you're bgin denied a place by someone faster,

In some cases it will be that, but i still feel its more of a case of a lacking system.

I'll use myself as an example, back in my late teens I took up Table Tennis, I joined a team and started off in Division 4. That first year I won half my games which means the competition was fun lots of players at a similar level.
The following season due to a bit of a league restructure and the fact I was improving fast saw the league double promote us into division 2. I worked hard and again had a fun season again winning half my games.
Season 3, still in division 2, i'd improved a bit more and won near 80% of my games, we won the league, got promoted, happy days.
Seasons 4-9 saw a gradual grind up the first division, starting out with a 20% win rate and ending up with a 70% win rate and playing some national league games.
The point of all that being, I started as a total beginner, and over 9 seasons of progression, there was always a place where I was competing at the correct level.

Now around 5 years ago I gave up TT and took up cycling. In my mind, i've followed a pretty similar progression curve. I don't have power, but from various sources estimate my FTP @ ~3.8W/Kg, maybe a touch higher. I can finish top third of GT7/10UTB, I have a few uphill Strava KOM's, so consider myself quite far from unfit (although clearly far from great too). And yet if I want to race XC Sport cat, 5 years solid training and improvement under my belt has got me to a place where I can maybe finish 2nd last.
Which is fine, but where is the appropriate level of racing for the first 5 years of improvement, or for the guys that are simply not as dedicated or as fit. Where are the equivalent of division 3/4 as it were? It doesn't exist, and without that level for people to progress through and still feel like they are competing with others on a similar level then the sport is going to stagnate and decline.

But why raise the question of w/kg if you have no intention of improving it or racing

I've never said either of that...

I have every intention of both raising my W/Kg and racing again in the coming few months/year... However, i don't see myself using a structured plan like yourself (and others i know), which of course may be detrimental to my potential results, but i have to live with that.

I'll be racing XC Rampage next year as i need to be able to keep up with my boy and he's catching me 🙂 But mostly, because i'm trying to get fitter/faster/slimmer and racing is a good incentive to not have that 5th chocolate hob-nob.

The problem with fitness is how specific it is! I have done a couple of ironman races, and even then when i moved over to XC and CX I really struggled! ironman is about maintaining a certain pace for X hours! XC racing is much more about max efforts then quick recovery before repeating (until you are sick it would seem!).

fifeandy - Member

They asked for feedback after last season via a rider representative and were given the exact same feedback along with a fair range of suggestions via the Trail Scotland forum. They then chose to ignore all feedback and carry on exactly as before.
Unsurprisingly, participation levels have not increased.

There's a different committee for 2016, worth raising the same issues again.

Or start your own series. 😉

The problem with fitness is how specific it is! I have done a couple of ironman races, and even then when i moved over to XC and CX I really struggled! ironman is about maintaining a certain pace for X hours! XC racing is much more about max efforts then quick recovery before repeating (until you are sick it would seem!).

Agree totally with that. I've found recently that (something i already knew really) i'm much better at grinding out the pace/power in a simple flat rate rather than sprint/slow.... I'm just way more suited to getting my HR up around 92% and keeping it there, rather than 98% > 85% > 98% > 85% etc.

[quote="weeksy"]Riding is mostly about the enjoyment, the pleasure, the passion. Training is purely about the killing yourself in a souless way to hit whatever that days goals and targets are, be that FTP, tempo, recovery etc... It's sucking the 'pleasure' out of the riding, both indoors and outdoors.I quite enjoy the training, riding stuff as fast and as hard as i can. Or in some cases, faster than i'm really capable (scars everywhere!). Riding with other riders who are a) far fitter and b) far more technically able, to see how to improve. Knocking out long intervals and base mileage to see (and chart) improvements in power and recovery and so on.
For comparison 21 hours was (about) 8-9 days training for me when i was an amateur, with a full time job, and less than a week riding full time.

Most of the sport riders i knew (the ones at the front) were doing almost as many hours as i was to finish single digit placing in Elite.

Thing is, you need to be reasonably fit to even enjoy the early stages of it. My current state of fitness, i'll hate it. And doubt if i'll ever be able to get back into it.

@phil40 that's my fear/training in a nutshell!! I haven't done an XC race in a few years, and have never trained for it, so have no illusions of how fit I think I am!

For comparison 21 hours was (about) 8-9 days training for me when i was an amateur, with a full time job, and less than a week riding full time.

That's putting at say 3 hours per night with a couple of days off...

That's straight to divorce court for me and being a neglective parent.... simply not an option.

Bbut does highlight the levels of training/ability/fitness required in the real world to get to these sorts of positions.

If fields are down then why don't we bin the age cats, and just have fun, Sport, Expert, Elite (or mirror the road 4/3/2/1/E). After all it stupid that at 39 you race one race and then the next year a different one for no reason.

Also image is a huge issue in the UK. Chipps can say there is no interest and BC are to blame, but he needs a hard look in the mirror, as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing. How will people do something or become interested if they aren't aware of it?

[quote="weeksy"]That's putting at say 3 hours per night with a couple of days off...

Yeah, i appreciate that, it probably would be for me these days. It'll be all about sacrifices. Training before work, training after dark. And so on.

I might manage, i might not.

Thankfully it'll probably not lead to divorce as my partner is also encouraging me to get back into it, as she spent about 10 years on the pro circuit in Europe, so she knows what it's like.

Why would you travel for a couple of hours to do a race where you know you'll be lucky to get top half of the field.

This is what I mean though about the different mindset.

You (well I do) go to a race to race, and to better yourself, if you go with an expectation of a placing (whatever that may be) then that's a different thing entirely, especially when it starts to become a reason to NOT go because you think you won't place well.

That's the bit I struggle with getting my head round, I go to races to ride my hardest, I enter my category and then I race, if that's turning myself inside out for a top 10 or turning myself inside out for a 2nd from bottom its the same thing, I certainly wouldn't deliberately not go because I might not do well.

I'm not for one second suggesting everything is tickety-boo and no room for improvement, definitely not, I think the categorisation could work better, and racing could be more open and inviting, but I just struggle to get my head round not entering because you wont do well, I have to wonder why you were considering entering at all if you can only enjoy it on the basis of 'doing well' if that makes sense?

I enjoy myself just as much no matter where I place, I only feel disappointed when I feel I've not done as well as I could (in relation to my own performance).

ie: I'd be pissed at myself if I came 11th when I could have got 10th if I'd tried harder. But I wouldn't be pissed at myself for getting 23rd if I'd given it my all.

does that make sense? I know sometimes it's hard to explain properly online.

You've got no idea . Few years ago i worked out that to do the regional and national XC series would have involved something ridiculous like 7000km of driving. For 12 races. Three of the national series events would have involved over 1000 km round trips, one was about 1800km.........
The most distant regional race was slightly over 600km.

The only race i did this year involved a round trip of 2400km, and then i overslept!

Unless you are serious you are unlikely to travel far, which means far more local races. More races more people, more going up categories, etc. If i wanted to race cross there are plenty of local races, road isn't too bad, but MTB, very little.

I enjoy myself just as much no matter where I place, I only feel disappointed when I feel I've not done as well as I could (in relation to my own performance).

ie: I'd be pissed at myself if I came 11th when I could have got 10th if I'd tried harder. But I wouldn't be pissed at myself for getting 23rd if I'd given it my all.

does that make sense? I know sometimes it's hard to explain properly online

Of course, makes complete sense. I had the same in motorbike racing for a few years... but it was helped by the fact i WAS battling with other racers, so even for 25th place for example, the battle was there corner after corner, lap after lap.... Which is what made it 'racing' rather than XCing with others somewhere else on the same course.

[quote="amedias"]I know sometimes it's hard to explain properly online.Many people compare themselves by placing, or time behind the leader, not how hard they went. So seeing the entire field disappearing up the start straight is demoralising. Being lapped on a 3 lap race is depressing, being pulled out at the end of the second lap because you've been lapped is insulting.

Especially when the only people you've seen since the end of the start is the fast riders in your category lapping you.

Which is what made it 'racing' rather than XCing with others somewhere else on the same course.

Yeah, and I guess that's the bit that is lacking (in all cats) due to dwindling numbers. A fine line to tread getting them right, with the right numbers of people at all abilities.

I'm not being put off, as I'd keep turning up anyway, the course and myself are as much my opponent as the people I race with, and I always find there's at least a couple of people of similar ability to me, but I can see how it might be different in other circumstances, and obviously bigger fields would improve that somewhat, but it's very 'chicken and egg' as to how to fix it.

eing pulled out at the end of the second lap because you've been lapped is insulting

Yes, and that's surely symptom of the categories being too wide in terms of ability? or as people have suggested, people racing in the 'wrong' category, whether that's too high or too low.

from reading this thread it does seem like it can be quite location dependant too, some series are clearly worse than others.

This thread is totally responsible for me just this minute entering a race.

😐

As above, having become comfortable with where I typically position, I now see my job is to improve on it. I'm not going to win Eastern, and may come top 5 London, buts its nice ( in a 😈 way) to have something to aim for.

Kryton57 - Member

This thread is totally responsible for me just this minute entering a race.

Is it the Gorrick in a fortnight ? If so, sod it... i'll enter too if you have. !

Yes, and that's surely symptom of the categories being too wide in terms of ability? or as people have suggested, people racing in the 'wrong' category, whether that's too high or too low.

[quote="Kryton57"]As above, having become comfortable with where I typically position, I now see my job is to improve on it.I hate to go on about it, but you have actually got a coach now haven't you? This is almost the perfect time of year to start training (properly) for 2017.

the problem is that races need to attract the average punter. the question is how?

Seems to me the problem is the punter, not the races. If you want to race, as in strap on a plate and race, then do it. If you're not where you want to be, then train, work on your weaknesses, sort your diet, hit the gym, put in the miles. If you're not willing to do that then you probably won't ever be as fast as the guys at or near the front.

The sandbagging thing has many sides. Some folk just don't have the time to dedicate themselves to ride the next category up and that's fair enough. There are many BMX, 4X, enduro riders racing masters and vets that would still hold their own in more competitive categories but don't have the time or the desire to train any harder than they do. If I'm riding masters and get beaten by a vet, or a master that was elite the previous year, then I need to either train harder or accept that I will not finish above that rider. No point expecting them to 'ride up'. I also understand that some folk want to race up but cannot because of the system which is no fault of theirs.

I understand that organisers want people to attend the races but I don't feel that they should water down their races so people attend. For me, racing is racing. You strap on a plate, sharpen you elbows and race. I don't mean be rude or anything but it's meant to be competitive. It was interesting to see some of the reaction to the Gee Atherton Foxhunt helmet cam. He's got that mentality but a lot of people were critical of his attitude but he's a racer.

Maybe the average punter isn't a racer.

Is it the Gorrick in a fortnight ? If so, sod it... i'll enter too if you have. !

Nov 6 Autumn series, yes. Lets have a coffee and laugh at our results once we can brath again after. 😀

I hate to go on about it, but you have actually got a coach now haven't you? This is almost the perfect time of year to start training (properly) for 2017.

I've agreed to work with a coach on the basis he's free to do so, yes, I'm self Trainer-roading until he contacts me. He's most likely watching this thread 🙂

Fwiw, I do 6-8hr riding a week in a hard training week, I can't fit in more, or deal with the fatigue if I push it what with all other commitments. I've strava top tenned in climbs at the trail centres And cross I'm in the top quarter of all seniors at races this year. Yet in sport cat I'm mid field at best, more commonly bottom quarter. Ignoring hte fact I'm not great technically and have had fear issues this year leading to b-line riding, that to me says that sport isn't quite at the level it should be. I do t have an issue with the front though, it's solely about getting more people riding sport so the field is more representative of guys who want to race for 'sport'

Maybe those guys just don't exist anymore but it's a sad state of affairs

Actually weeksy I hadn't pressed Go yet as Timelaps website is crashed and I wanted to see who was in which category - which are you going for?

I've got a bit of a dilema there really...

If i enter my lad in the U11's, he's off at 8.55am... If i then enter myself in Fun male, i'm off at 9.15am... Silly as this sounds, i'd like to be around just in case and i'm not sure he'd get finished by the 9.15am start.
(I'll take Mrs Weeksy along too for emergencies i imagine, but due to him having quite a 'crashy' XC season, i'd rather race knowing he was back safely)
I'm not really convinced any other catagory than Fun is where i should be putting myself. If anything other than that, it's Open male, but that's nearly 4 hours waiting time for that race...

Mrs Weeksy is back after a few days away tonight, let me see if she's going to go and also chat with my boy to see if he wants to race.. i'm sure he will as he loves Swinley.

I've also emailed the Gorrick guys to get their thoughts as i am slightly worried that some of the XC racing tracks are a bit too tough for him at his age... especially if he's being chased down by a load of grown ups !

Especially when the only people you've seen since the end of the start is the fast riders in your category lapping you.

Doing the Thetford winter series a few years ago, the competition between my mates and me was to see how long you could last without being lapped by Billy Whenman.

You (well I do) go to a race to race, and to better yourself, if you go with an expectation of a placing (whatever that may be) then that's a different thing entirely, especially when it starts to become a reason to NOT go because you think you won't place well.

Understand and to some extent agree with you. The first year or so that I raced I did just compare my finishing position to those of previous races. Then I started to take it more seriously, got myself a coach and a power meter and started putting in some proper training, rather than the odd turbo session or Sunday club ride. A winter of burying myself followed and to some extent it worked. My winter series position when from something mental like 102 to 23rd, then I got a 16th and was over the moon (still got passed by an old bloke in football shorts using clips and straps mind).

It's when you're training as much as you can, spending all your time obsessing over details and making sure you're not sitting near anyone ill, or not having a beer or whatever to then have it handed to you - that's when you start getting a bit pissed off. As people have said, it doesn't pay the bills so its not important, however for me if I'm putting the hours/effort in then I want the results, especially if I'm trying to move up a category. Otherwise I'd just go for a ride round the forest on my own..

Lets have a coffee and laugh at our results once we can brath again after.

Interesting part of the debate- I don't know many people who race XC, and due to its minority nature I don't know how to find others to train with etc apart from at races. There doesn't seem to be the same community as there is with road or even CX to some extent. This forum is pretty active but it's rare to see lots of discussion about racing (apart from the obvious season long thread and this one). Places like XC racer seem pretty dead to be honest.

I'm in Swindon by the way if anyone wants to ride my legs off in the interests of winter training?

An interesting discussion.

I've not done any bike races (of any sort) but used to do fell races, I was pretty consistent: add 50% to the winner's time and a position a third of the way down the field 😳 Fell races are slightly different in that *everyone* (apart from juniors) runs the same race but prizes are given according to age, gender, whim of the organiser. The point is: I knew that unless something went wrong (the good guys didn't turn up; the front of the field took a wrong turning - this did happen once!) then I was always going to be at the front end of the middle of the pack.

When you start racing unless you are particularly gifted then you are going to be spat out of the back regardless of the level you are at. A friend rode in the open race at one of the national crit series and came last. "My first race that I didn't get lapped and told to pull out" was his comment.

Getting numbers up? Open/fun races that have no points on offer and no E/1/2/3/Sport riders allowed. Dunno what the current rules are.

Open/fun races that have no points on offer

They have this, but...

and no E/1/2/3/Sport riders allowed

No way to reliably enforce this...

As far as i can remember, every single time i've moved up a cat i've received a kicking for the first couple of months. Or the first couple of times i've done a type of event. (Stage races, cobbled races etc).

Problem here seems to be that the kicking is too much. Getting shelled out after half distance is one thing. What you see in many MTB XCO events is something else altogether.

I dunno, my last round of MSG was so totally unsuited to me I knew it wouldn't be good, but I saw any league table points as some points worth having, and it being an opportunity to hone racecraft, experience, and of course fitness at race pace.

No way I wouldnt have gone.

I know how to sort this out....

A new race format....

XC race on a saturday followed by a DH race on the Sunday. You have to use the same bike/tyres for both days.

Wasn't that the idea of the singletrack weekender at Lee Quarry? To find the best all rounder on one bike?

OK, Mrs Weeksy is confirmed as having no plans. So i could in theory enter Fun class.

Obviously if you enter Open then that's a 4 hour gap so i doubt we'd end up in the same place at same time... But possibly if you enter Sport as that's in the middle ?

Alwillis, you playing too then ?

@amedias - surely not too hard to look at a list of names/clubs and figure if someone's pulling a fast one? Maybe a points deduction for those caught? Without a reliable base the pyramid of riders moving up and down categories can't sustainably work, the whole system relies on new riders starting to replace those who move on to the vets/masters or simply give up. If you don't attract them then eventually things will die, having riders game the system/sandbagging to get a win isn't in the best interests of the sport.

One of the local CX events always had a fun race with a mandatory shot of tequila every lap!

Wasn't that the idea of the singletrack weekender at Lee Quarry? To find the best all rounder on one bike?

Don`t know, never heard of it.

Kryton57 - Member

I have to chuckle on here about poeple describing XC singletrack courses as "dull".

Either you want to go and try Enduro, or you probably aren;t racing hard enough if the course doesn't become challenging, in the same way Lewis Hamilton driving around Silverstone at 30mph would be "dull", yet at 150mph, less dull. If you're travelling anf paying to coast around the woods and are disgruntled about that, thats your lookout.

TBF, that sounds like a problem- if you need to "race hard" to stop it from being dull then that's offputting to all the weekend warriors that don't want to or can't "race hard". You can race XC endurance or enduro like a total lazy bastard and it's still good. It's OK if the racing's constructed around more serious riders, but it means you can't complain when they're all that turns up... It's something i don't see other offroad sports doing. (enduro especially seems well keyed into the fact that the winners aren't really all that important, it's the 80% of also-rans that mean you can run a race. One organiser told me that if they had to lose a class, it'd be the elites)

Thinking about this a bit last night... The scottish series seems to be doing OK but it's basically invisible. If someone as into the scene as me never hears about it [i]at all[/i]- then where does the new blood come from? I ended up googling it to see if it still exists because for all the promotion and chatter, you'd think it'd ended 5 years ago.Perhaps they have good enough numbers that they don't need to bother? Or perhaps they like their niche the way it is?

It's not even an inclusion thing at this point, people need to know you exist before you can exclude them.

Problem here seems to be that the kicking is too much. Getting shelled out after half distance is one thing. What you see in many MTB XCO events is something else altogether.

Exactly that, it would take an amazing strength of character for a beginner to enter, come last by 20 mins and stick with it through several years with the only motivation being he's coming last by less than he used to.
Sure there's folks out there that can take that, however the vast majority would probably get dispirited and give up after 2-4 outings.

as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing

TbF this (or any other magazine for that matter) has never really pushed xc racing. And Singletrack has never really promoted any sort of racing and wass never set itself up to do that.