[Closed] XC numbers down?

Which is fine, but where is the appropriate level of racing for the first 5 years of improvement, or for the guys that are simply not as dedicated or as fit. Where are the equivalent of division 3/4 as it were? It doesn't exist, and without that level for people to progress through and still feel like they are competing with others on a similar level then the sport is going to stagnate and decline.

This is the problem with competitive cycling in general - there is no 'Sunday League'. Even in the most inclusive discipline, CX, you've got very fit (both amongst other cyclists and certainly in the general population) folk finishing absolutely nowhere because the sharp end is really very sharp.

Yes, i agree. Can't speak for cx, but certainly road is in the same boat.
I think thats why sportives are so popular, it allows the masses of fit (but not uber fit) folk out there to go 'race' even though its not a race.
And you can hardly blame them for it either, for an average rider, looking at the speeds seen in some 3/4 races must seem so far out of reach as to be not even worth trying.
You summed it up really well with the term 'Sunday League'

On the other hand though, why should it be easy? Cycling is bloody hard work and even if there were, say, a 5th cat for road or 'beginner' for XC, what would the cutoff be? Only those who can't average 18mph for an hour? Never been in the top 10 of a Strava segment?
There'll still be someone faster either because they just turn up strong, are sandbagging, or because BC have given them a stupid licence category.

Granted, its always going to be hard work taking part in a cycle race, but clearly from my posts in this thread i think there should be racing available at roughly your level whether you can average 10mph or 30mph.
Literally any other sport you can show up, practice for 2-3 months to get the basics, and then get stuck in with others of your own ability level - why should cycling be any different?

It's called enduro and as stated before is on the rise.

fitness is important, but not the only metric that determines performance.

lol, get a grip.
The way enduro is headed a beginner would probably have a horrific smash and end in hospital before the end of stage 1.

Certanly meets the requirement as a racing format for fat lazy folks though *raises flame shield*

I rode with an enduro bloke on a YT Capra yesterday. After following me at pace down a piece of single track he said "I can keep up, but only a bit at a time, there's no way I'm doing that for an hour and twenty minutes" Later he pointed and laughed as I failed to get my 100mm travel bike over a -significantly sized - log pile.

There's the difference.

fifeandy - Member

The way enduro is headed a beginner would probably have a horrific smash and end in hospital before the end of stage 1.

If they're unskilled and decide to enter a high end race, sure. There's not as many entry level events out there as I'd like but there's still enough to let people give it a go without inevitable #endurodeath.

The comparison with enduro is interesting actually, if you're willing to think about it like a grown up.

XC = categories by ability, and by age after 40
Enduro = categories by age, plus elite

You need to be very, very good to get a podium or even top 10 in any (male) category in an enduro.

By contrast I was top 10 in the last two XC races I did (and I don't think I'm a sandbagger).

Are you possibly just entering the wrong races fifeandy?

I don't actually have a choice of races, its SXC or nothing, there are no 'local' level races, or if there are they are so badly publicised that even someone actively looking for them cant find them.

I'm under no illusion that the situation is better in some areas of the country, but we've had enough people say a similar thing to know its fairly widespread outside the southeast.

@Northwind, what are these noob friendly enduro's you mentioned? Only one i know of is Comrie croft, and even that has 1 stage thats hardly entry level.

[i]Edit:[/i] Just remembered the two muckmedden events

Also image is a huge issue in the UK. Chipps can say there is no interest and BC are to blame, but he needs a hard look in the mirror, as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing. How will people do something or become interested if they aren't aware of it?

To be fair the website has aided a few series, the mag hasn't

Getting into print is harder, results are boring, interesting stories hard to come by, pictures not as dramatic as they need to be etc etc

I understand that organisers want people to attend the races but I don't feel that they should water down their races so people attend. For me, racing is racing. You strap on a plate, sharpen you elbows and race. I don't mean be rude or anything but it's meant to be competitive.

But there needs to be gateway events, it can be done but the organiser needs to want to do it and needs support from media, sponsors and trade

My local series (Midweek Madness) seems to attract a good spread of abilities and I'm seeing some crossover from enduro and DH. I don't think the future is necessarily bleak for XC

This is the problem with competitive cycling in general - there is no 'Sunday League'. Even in the most inclusive discipline, CX, you've got very fit (both amongst other cyclists and certainly in the general population) folk finishing absolutely nowhere because the sharp end is really very sharp.

The thing is in cx everyone is happy because it's solely age based, so the ability spread is huge. I think it also helps being time orientated, everyone finishes within 5-10 minutes of the cut off, whether they've done 6 laps or twelve, so there is a buzz and a good bit of banter around the finish line. Compare to xc where if you've been hammered the person in front of you might have finished 10 minutes ago and already be in the car and on the way home!

If xc racing was popular there would be the 'Sunday league' as fun cat would have a sizeable group in and this would feed into open or sport as people got more confident. I guess to a certain extent it's cyclical but I think it would need a concerted effort from interested parties and the media to turn the tide, it may not even be possible. Even when local below-regional events are put on htey are poorly attended round here, despite getting rave reviews by people who do have a crack

I don't actually have a choice of races, its SXC or nothing, there are no 'local' level races, or if there are they are so badly publicised that even someone actively looking for them cant find them.

And people are not deciding to fill the void

If xc racing was popular there would be the 'Sunday league' as fun cat would have a sizeable group in and this would feed into open or sport as people got more confident. I guess to a certain extent it's cyclical but I think it would need a concerted effort from interested parties and the media to turn the tide, it may not even be possible. Even when local below-regional events are put on htey are poorly attended round here.

It is getting the critical mass in people willing to do the work to make an event work well that stops this, anyone who does step up eventually burns out or has their available time compromised at some point

CX works because the road clubs structure essentially manages this issue, mtbers don't organise in the same way so it doesn't work

i havent raced xc for maybe 7 or 8 years. but i was going to enter the landegla xc race this weekend which i now cant. Can anyone reccomend an xc race in the west midlands/ wales are in the next couple of months? I would prefer it to be a bit more techy rather than racing round fields.

The sandbaggers are people who enter in a lower class than they're capable of?

I only entered a few races before I was old enough to be a veteran, and didn't have a clue what any of the classes meant, so now I'm a vet I don't have to worry about points and stuff I just do it for fun and a challenge.

The 1.5hr Gorricks are really good fun, the technicality is about right for me too. Have had some really good races where I've raced with people over a lap or so thinking they're going to leave me behind soon and suddenly I get past them.

The longer Gorricks I've sometimes spent half of riding solo, it's nice to eventually find another rider. This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.

CX doesn't appeal I don't have the bike for it, and for me it seems a bit too half-hearted approach to off-road.

@big n daft, in Wales the regional series has individual races organised by separate clubs so same as cx.

the courses are essentially long CX events, but it's XC so not all bad

Sutton Manor was a bit tame but I'd say the ones I did at Haigh Hall & Clayton Vale were good old fashioned XC. Lee Quarry must have a few techy bits too?

Fifeandy - It seems odd that the series you enter has no open category - is it intended for serious racers only? Could it be a geographical thing that there are just not enough elite/expert racers within range?

EDIT: And it's funny that we don't get people complaining the competition is too stiff in enduro. Possibly because you don't get "dropped" in the same way. Though it is depressing if you keep getting caught on your stage.

The sportive comparison is interesting.

Free weeks ago I did the Viking Challenge. A non-competitive 35 or 50km XC event. You were given a time for the course but there was no official race result as such (the course used bridleways so obviously no legal racing).

The riding was non-technical on the whole (except for a few muddy sections) but was one of the most fun days out I've had on a bike. Riding with mates, raising a bit for charity, and sharing the event with 1500 other 'grass roots' riders.

Maybe this is where entry level XC is heading? No real competitive pressure other than to get round (and for some that was a true challenge to fitness and/or equipment).

Ticks all the boxes for participation, but wouldn't easily bridge the gap into 'proper' XC racing.

Them sort of xc events seem very popular yes. Gorrick do a few too and always well attended

XC Sportives...

CRC Marathons? Or whoever the sponsor is now..?

Sutton Manor was a bit tame but I'd say the ones I did at Haigh Hall & Clayton Vale were good old fashioned XC. Lee Quarry must have a few techy bits too?

Clayton Vale is not really technical apart from a few rollers

The Lee Quarry events avoid the technical parts of the site

Think Scott are the title sponsor now.
Did them in 2011 as they were a great weekend of riding with a road sportive Saturday and MTB marathon Sunday.
They did away with the road events though, and its a bit far to travel to wales for 1 bike ride.
Definitely more of a social atmosphere to MTB marathons than the wannabe racer syndrome all to obvious in many road events.

fifeandy - Member

@Northwind, what are these noob friendly enduro's you mentioned? Only one i know of is Comrie croft, and even that has 1 stage thats hardly entry level.

Pretty much all the muckmedden events fit the bill, they'd be a great way to try your hand at enduro.

chakaping - Member

And it's funny that we don't get people complaining the competition is too stiff in enduro. Possibly because you don't get "dropped" in the same way. Though it is depressing if you keep getting caught on your stage.

@Northwind, i think the main thing that puts me off the Perth and Falkirk muckmedden events is they are so short. ~90 mins riding even on a trail bike rather than a fast bike, and i've got to be honest and say being a moderately anti-social git i'm all about the riding and not so much the atmosphere etc afterwards.

Events like that in general are a good thing though and should be encouraged.

For me i'd be more interested in a couple of fairly decent big riding days EWS style, just with more mellow timed sections.
For example opening all the gates and running a stage down gypsy glen would be my cup of tea.

Guess that shows my heart is still more in an XC style event and why i find it dissapointing there aren't more opportunities for it.

The Wiggle mtb sportive things are well attended as I understand.

I've seen (and been) a total beginner with no idea what I'm doing and been dropped within 300m and spent the last 2/3 of races on my own. When only 2 or 3 beginners turn up it's likely they don't really get to race, as said already, the pace of an XC race is eye opening. The fun of XC is the close racing with people of similar fitness/skill. You remember the battles not your overall position.

I think one solution would be to run a total beginner race at every xc event, but make it a single lap or very short time, but make entry free. That way you'd get more people just giving it a go and hopefully sticking with it.

I'd just like them to change the name from 'Fun'.

It somehow degrades the class and people laugh and mock me if i tell them i came in the top 50% of the fun class... They seem to imagine people riding round dressed as Santa and having spokey dokeys on !

That's a valid point weeksy, when I got back into racing, first race I entered sport for the same reason (and a misguided sense of fitness from strava) got absolutely annihilated rode round alone feeling like a ****. Thankfully the few spectators were super encouraging and I'm a stubborn bloke so the humiliation just made we want to get fir enough.

However, what do you call it? I'd almost say re-name and combine fun and open as sport, using a fun distance, then sport could be called enthusiast or something (giving it an e name with elite and expert). A bigger length gap between the ranking and non ranking events would reduce the number of fast guys in the non-ranking race, pushing up the number in midfield of the bottom rung ranked events too. So sport (fun and open) 2 laps, enthusiast (old sport cat) 4 laps and upwards to elite. More I think that would sort the category issue, then it's just a case of sparking the idea of racing with more people!

I suppose if you wanted to have categories with sensible names then you could have:
Entry
Enthusiast
Expert
Elite

Entry would be for first-timers, beginners, etc. Enthusiast for the weekend riders, people who can ride but don't take it too seriously. Expert and Elite for the properly fast/serious lot on carbon hardtails 😉

Not into 2 lap races. Results in 3 hr drives for 40min race.
I'd think that anyone even thinking about racing XC should be capable of riding 90mins.

I would like to live somewhere where something like the [url= http://www.worca.com/toonie-ride-schedule/ ]WORCA Toonie Races[/url] happened. I know it's not XC as we know it, but it looks excellent.

🙂

Blimey this thread is a tough one for someone in my shoes, one of the organisers at the SouthernXC!!

All of this XC chat is just brilliant, your opinion is what helps us improve, and improve we must because the one thing that matters is participation, without critical mass the series can't run 😕

To increase participation we need to make XC attractive to all of you who haven't had a go or have and been put off for one of the numerous reasons - while we are never going to tick everyone's box we must try so please keep this thread going!!

Adam_Buckland - Member

Blimey this thread is a tough one for someone in my shoes, one of the organisers at the SouthernXC!!

All of this XC chat is just brilliant, all of the opinion is what helps us improve and improve we must because the one thing that matters is participation, without critical mass the series can't run

To increase participation we need to make XC attractive to all of you who haven't had a go or have and been put off for one of the numerous reasons - while we are never going to tick everyone's box we must try so please keep this thread going!!

Has it given you any ideas ? I seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer... Whilst it's fun sometimes in the mud, i'd much rather find myself riding on a nice summer morning than a wet and horrible foggy morning.

CX has a Novice category, why couldnt that happen in XC? I appreciate it needs policing, but anyone with points on a BC licence / a ranking wouldnt be allowed to enter. Or similar...

@weeksy, i agree, but I believe participation is even lower in summer hols.

@fifeandy, but you don't currently race in fun so would have standard race length. Point taken about driving distance, but the lap length would be the same for what fun is now, and for the slower open guys 2 laps of better racing (not getting slammed and riding alone) must be more rewarding than an hour of disillusionment? Faster open guys easily can race at the current sport level. At the Nationals lap times put me in the top third of open when I'm racing sport and getting bottom half to bottom third placing so there is significant overlap.

@adam - seems like southern xc is one of the few healthy series so your doing something right!

@kryton, we only have novice women, all men just get lumped in senior and it works.

CX has a Novice category, why couldnt that happen in XC? I appreciate it needs policing, but anyone with points on a BC licence / a ranking wouldnt be allowed to enter. Or similar...

Part of the problem is having someone to go through entries and check that everyone in a Novice category doesn't have a BC license or hasn't been racing various other, much higher level, events previously.
It's a fairly time consuming task and from speaking to friends who've organised events, they just don't have the time to do this.

seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer...

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Not a big lap or a long race - just an evening flat out blast. Could be a runner? Particularly with better weather? It has to be said that a UK winter can put off even the most determined at times!

Interesting thread which I've skimmed as in a bit of a rush.

A few points from my perspective:

XCRampage is boring. In the dry- the course is rubbish. Perhaps rd 1 was packed with people hoping they'd spiced it up then getting disappointed?
There's also some quite arrogant guys racing there- I didn't find it friendly at all this year.

CX gives you 'racing'. It's a vicious circle isn't it. If more people are riding CX, then that's where you have to go to get a good spread of wheel to wheel action. Having a shorter course helps too as you don't feel as dejected if you get dropped. Wessex have also created some quality courses too! Really good fun.

Gorricks are varied and fun and retain a laid back atmosphere. Despite the leading laptimes being similar across Fun, Open and Sport, you know there will be some baggy shorted newbies and enthusiasts to race. They also get their results out pronto (as did XCRampage this year).

Weeksy- you can't have it both ways. You can't pour scorn on 'proper training' one minute, then moan that everyone else are too fit the next.

Culture- I think we are too pompous about stuff over here. For me- the roadie scene seems far too intimidating compared to other countries. YouTube is packed with friendly looking Cat5 Crit races around industrial estates in the USA and Oz. Yet there's nothing that I've found that seems remotely accessible over here.
Perhaps XC racing has the same image problem to non-racers?

Weeksy- you can't have it both ways. You can't pour scorn on 'proper training' one minute, then moan that everyone else are too fit the next.

Of course i can. Just watch 🙂

(but in my defence, i've not complained about their fitness, more that there doesn't seem to be a lot of 'normal' riders)

Look at it this way, if i go to Swinley, i'm not passed by many guys. However i'm at the back end of a race field...

The question is... how do we/they get the regular guys to enter ? You can't tell me they're not competitive, Strava figures show me that a massive number of people are both riding and timing themselves, you don't really time yourself unless you're working for goals... be that time, distance or speed, but all essentially a competitive aspect within the riding.

Part of the problem is having someone to go through entries and check that everyone in a Novice category doesn't have a BC license or hasn't been racing various other, much higher level, events previously.

Just saying that if the time it takes organisers is the only reason that improvements aren't being made it wouldn't be that hard to fix if BC really wanted it to happen

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Not a big lap or a long race - just an evening flat out blast. Could be a runner? Particularly with better weather? It has to be said that a UK winter can put off even the most determined at times!

soggy bottom summer series was like this. juniors race on a short course from 5.45, main race at 7 all categories started together, race for about an hour. I only managed one (nearly DFL again...) but it was good fun.

I'll throw my 3/- & 6d in here..

BITD I used to ride XC, yup those heady days of Roberts DogzBollox/Marin Team Tits/Klein Attitudes and those bonded yellow and blue Raleigh thingumbobs...

Those course around the Midlands(Cannock)/FoD/South(Epping) were all natural, wooded mix of flat chat and technical loops of about an hour per lap, normally 2 laps IIRC. Plenty of mixed abilities and again IIRC only one separate start for the Pros, us lot just went on behind. Now all I remember from back then was hard racing, and a distinct difference in fitness between the Pros and us lot.

I ride CX, short and long course, I've been to a few Gorricks and the ones I've been too remind me of the courses BITD, but I've seen the courses on TV of both the Olympics and the course left behind and it looks just too bland.
One reason I do ride CX is its flat chat with technical bits in, a few laps, a bit of puke, coffee and banter..

I'm happy I don't ride XC, I do think it's too serious.. I get the impression it's too insular and only for the Pros/Semi wannabes, sterile even.

CX every time, it's far removed from the perceived snooty XC scene IMO.

One of the funniest races I did last year was the soggy bottom at the beginning of Jan, really good atmosphere

[quote=ferrals ]One of the funniest races I did last year was the soggy bottom at the beginning of Jan, really good atmosphere

that was my first xc race and best result (36/49 in sport) so far, the filthy conditions suited me, i made up a lot of places on every downhill section and lost them all again every climb.

remember this:

[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1508/24165851105_54f7c1cdbb_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1508/24165851105_54f7c1cdbb_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/CPsiBg ]DSC04355 (Medium)[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/49331967@N08/ ]fully sussed[/url], on Flickr

Just saying that if the time it takes organisers is the only reason that improvements aren't being made it wouldn't be that hard to fix if BC really wanted it to happen

That seems to be part of the problem from what I see and read. BC don't have any interest in anything MTB related from grassroots level up to Elite level.

Have they done anything over the past few years to try and increase participation in any MTB format on the back of the huge surge in popularity of cycling?

Has it given you any ideas ? I seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer... Whilst it's fun sometimes in the mud, i'd much rather find myself riding on a nice summer morning than a wet and horrible foggy morning.

I'm sure we've had this discussion before, and it's because you only look at Gorrick, who don't run a summer XC series because of the other events happening! Look at the Southern XC series - you're quoting the organiser's post! 6-7 races between March and September. Slightly wider geographic spread than the Gorricks, but more variety for it.

Marin Team Tits

*fondly remembers being a Team Marin tit*

[img] [/img]

Agreed, but further away... However i do need to start considering further away things, if not for myself but for my lad.

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Would be easier to organise, so more people likely to have a go at putting the races on.

That seems to be part of the problem from what I see and read. BC don't have any interest in anything MTB related from grassroots level up to Elite level.

Have they done anything over the past few years to try and increase participation in any MTB format on the back of the huge surge in popularity of cycling?

Some of the sentiment above misunderstands BC. They are not event organisers they rely on individuals and clubs to be the organiser, they provide the structure and enablers like insurance etc. Therefore the lack of races is down to the lack of structure in MTB generally and the general culture which is more anti "committee". Some places get it right, some don't which is why the picture is so fragmented.

BC is essentially a bit of a curates egg, MTB is difficult for them and they really don't get it (in so far as there is an "it" rather than a collection of opinionated individuals who make it a bit like herding cats). The club structure isn't there in strength either which helps retain knowledge (and good and bad practice) as well as cash and equipment

The only people who can make a difference are those interested in the sport waiting for someone else to do the hard work is going to lead to continuing stagnation. There is no money in it, no recognition, just lots of hard work and begging for marshals and being nice to people who think they own you just because they paid £15 to enter the race

For me the system is broken and will continue to limp around, it will take an alignment of the stars to sort out

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

No one is stopping you from organising some

Its certainly useful for me, I'm organising a race next year, and its now definately having a "just for fun" category. 🙂

This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.

Big Dog is the best track I've raced on, I don't get the too technical aspect at all. It's just standard xc mtb isn't it?

Pivot 24/12 is another fantastic course.

I've raced the Gorrick brass monkeys too, I like the single speed category aspect, I'm never going to trouble the podium but I can race like minded folk. Would be good to have categories identified on riders somehow like stickers on the seatpost or something.

Make it more like LeMans, easily identified races in races, more interesting for more people.

Would be good to have categories identified on riders somehow like stickers on the seatpost or something.

+1.

No one is stopping you from organising some

Nor you - why don't we get together & have a crack?

Started racing winter series last year that a local club runs its £5 entry and on some lovley singletrack and fire road climbs usualy has a mixed age range of around 30 riders its simple male femaile juniors and you land whare you land
if you want to get better you have to work harder as this is a non bc event so no grouped points

BUT its not a massivley advertised event apart from on there website and xc racer which leads to me saying allot of riders not using xc racer looking for races for certain areas.

We saw oktoberfest fall this year due to low pre entry numbers and the odds are it wont be back again.
bikefest nearly dident happen this year and WAS canceld for next year due to lowering numbers and riseing land costs but have managed to secure atleast another year on site using new sections of land
i hope we manage to keep things going and bc can pull another cat out there ass or as other posters have said its off putting getting your ass handed to you on the regular.

CX has it nailed in many respects.

Short, sharp, fun with extra silliness thrown into the mix from time to time.

How does XC incorporate those elements?...

No one is stopping you from organising some

I am - cos I know what a ballache it is. I am in no way capable of being that organised.

mrlebowski - Member
CX has it nailed in many respects.

Short, sharp, fun with extra silliness thrown into the mix from time to time.

yup.

in a cyclo-cross race, repeatedly carrying/dragging your bike over/under/through a field because it's an actual un-rideable swamp (Bakewell) is all part of the fun.

the same thing just wouldn't be acceptable in a mountain bike race.

mad isn't it?

Do we basically just need Rapha to put on some XC races to give it the hipster seal of approval?

Should try some of my races sound the same being winter set one of he climbs saw even the top end running the bikes up and sliding back down was quite funny towards the end.

This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.
Big Dog is the best track I've raced on, I don't get the too technical aspect at all. It's just standard xc mtb isn't it?

I did 2 races last summer. Laggan round of SXC was pretty technical in places, I entered the Cathkin Braes round but broke my wrist practicing the lap. The Big Dog course was far from dull, but certainly less technical than either of the other courses (in defence of Cathkin I was trying out the hardest of 3 lines at one point on the course and just totally f'd it up - and probably wouldn't have used it during the race anyway). Not that I managed not to fall off of course.

My Strava informed me that the Laggan XC course took in a stage from last year's SES - and whilst the broken wrist taught me to fit a dropper, the level of skill in the field to ride it at speed, saddle up on lightweight hardtails with fast tyres was quite impressive.

To be honest, it's probably the danger that would put me off XC rather than anything else. Pads just aren't practical, you're riding a bike that's going to be compromised for descending and you're going to be blowing out of your arse or you're not pedalling hard enough. That said, there was more racing time (even racing descending time) than an enduro event for less money.

Edit - the fields seemed pretty good and looking at lap times, coming 4th in the Sport at Laggan I might have just about managed second last or so in elite, so the categories were about right.

Look at it this way, if i go to Swinley, i'm not passed by many guys. However i'm at the back end of a race field...

The question is... how do we/they get the regular guys to enter ? You can't tell me they're not competitive, Strava figures show me that a massive number of people are both riding and timing themselves, you don't really time yourself unless you're working for goals... be that time, distance or speed, but all essentially a competitive aspect within the riding.

I have (or had) a couple of KOM's round Swinley - tank traps being one of them (Just checked and I'm 8th now). I got that when I was training and yet I was no where near the front in an XC race. Strava means nothing really and certainly not when riding XC. Most properly quick MTB riders I know train pretty much on the road or on the turbo. I was only at Swinley that day for some fun rather than structured training and I certainly wasn't aiming for KOM's or any of that nonsense.

Just because you're riding round Swinley on a Saturday and not getting passed doesn't mean you're fast. And just because you're quicker than your mates on Strava doesn't mean you're going to place in an XC race.

Maybe regular guys shouldnt be entering, or stick to the fun category. And they tried to change the name in the MSG series and nobody could work out what group they should be in. So they changed it back again...

Just because you're riding round Swinley on a Saturday and not getting passed doesn't mean you're fast. And just because you're quicker than your mates on Strava doesn't mean you're going to place in an XC race.

That SO wasn't what i was saying mate 🙂

I was saying that if i'm indicative of an 'average' MTBer... then there should be a catagory where i'm reasonably competitive, otherwise how are organisers going to attract in 'average' guys ? There's no / little incentive if they're just going to prop up the back of the field riding mostly alone after the first frantic 2 minutes. I'm not saying i should be able to win a class.... but i feel i ought to be able to at least find a race where i can put in say a 50% finish as i'm not that unfit.

They could rename it "not much fun but you'll feel good afterwards"?

Nor you - why don't we get together & have a crack?

After 25 races I'm burned out and don't have the time now as kids now take priority

If you are happy to do all the hard work I'm happy to provide my thoughts and (mis) guidance based on that experience

in a cyclo-cross race, repeatedly carrying/dragging your bike over/under/through a field because it's an actual un-rideable swamp (Bakewell) is all part of the fun.

the same thing just wouldn't be acceptable in a mountain bike race

The course has to be rideable for XC, CX deliberately puts things in that aren't

After 25 races I'm burned out and don't have the time now as kids now take priority
If you are happy to do all the hard work I'm happy to provide my thoughts and (mis) guidance based on that experience

Interesting, I may well.

Where are you based?

I'm in SW London.

As one of the Banjo Series organisers and ex SouthernXC I think there isn't really a problem with the format of XC racing or the structure of the events. We saw numbers growing over the last few years post 2012 after we put a lot of promotional effort into getting the races known out there. We always pushed Banjo as starter races for a laugh but the Southerns were deliberately aimed at the really keen racers so they didn't overlap with Gorricks. There was a progression through the series - Banjo, Gorrick, Southerns, Nationals. And it worked on bringing through talent but needed loads of effort in media and promotion.

Numbers have dropped in the last two years as we ran out of man-power and time to sustain the growth. The growth of CX has taken some riders especially at Banjo and Gorrick races but that is OK because they should cross over back to XC in the spring/summer. CX works because everybody sees it as a duty for the organising club to help out at at least one round so the workload is spread out.

The big problem I see is lack of organisers for entry level races or bigger one off events. Everyone seems to want to start off too big then panic when they don't get pre-entries and cancel. People need to step up and start taking over from the old organisers (well done Adam btw).

And anyway is it really a problem that XC racing doesn't get big participation. As long as people are riding bikes!

Weeksy, I think you are a tiny bit in denial about how fit the average cyclist is. Most entry level racers now are people who have come to it through road biking- and the bar for the average roadie is way higher than you probably think- hence why B cat on Zwift is so big- that's the level most people are at.

Also, none of your riding is anywhere near race intensity. Without at least one ride a week that is simulating a race effort- why do you expect to turn up and race and not get trounced??

In the dry- the technical aspects of most XC races aren't enough to counteract how slow 'we' actually are 😉

And anyway is it really a problem that XC racing doesn't get big participation. As long as people are riding bikes!

It is a problem if you end up pulling the plug on your series !

Where are you based?

Up north, near enough to binners to know he goes to the Vegan Deli rather than Manning's bakery 😉

Also, none of your riding is anywhere near race intensity. Without at least one ride a week that is simulating a race effort- why do you expect to turn up and race and not get trounced??

Last time at Swinley on the Kona WAS at race effort... it may not have looked it to you though 🙂

Yes but that was ages ago. People who are genuinely in to racing WANT to train for it. This isn't a five minute fix. If you want to target a series next year then you need to start planning now.
Except you won't because that's not 'fun' in your world so we'll be having the same conversation we have every year next year 😀

Weeksy, I think you are a tiny bit in denial about how fit the average cyclist is.

I disagree, I think he seems to have a very good idea how fit the average cyclist is (not very), and the entire problem is stemming from the fact that neither Cat4 road or Sport XC are accessible in the slightest to them.

Maybe [i]regular guys shouldnt be entering[/i], or stick to the fun category

That's the problem, regular guys [b]aren't[/b] entering, but that's not a sustainable way to run a mass participation sport!
It also shows a pretty bad attitude IMO.

To be honest if there were 30 guys entering fun and having a good race I'd stop any training, start consuming more beer and custard tarts and focus on fun. As we have at most four entering fun here that wouldn't work.

Hey, ! i'm a Zwift convert now.. (no, you can't quote me)... with the amount of riding/racing i'm doing now you can bet your ar5e i'll be more prepared next year 🙂

The big problem I see is lack of organisers for entry level races or bigger one off events. Everyone seems to want to start off too big then panic when they don't get pre-entries and cancel. People need to step up and start taking over from the old organisers (well done Adam btw).

IMHO you need to decide whether you want to make some cash as a business or do it for the love of it and raise cash for charity etc. The two models are different and you mix at you peril.

Big can be done Hit the North was a classic example, it is about the team aims and objectives

Surely the point here is not to fiddle about with classes but to make the races interesting for those who aren't at the sharp end (hence my random suggestions about format changes)

Another couple of ideas I've seen and liked - Erlstoke had a strava segment where the fastest through it on the day won a prize, irrespective of the overall race (shame the weather ruined it) and BBD had a 1 lap challenge which was a great laugh.

More races within races make it more interesting and something normal riders maybe able to attain to. Definitely needs a bit more fun in it, I've gone from racing several a year to 1 this season.

And I second the fact that most races seem to be in horrible weather, often I'm looking for something June - Sept and there is very little, so I end up doing sportives instead.

Why do some people here seem to think they should be able to rock up to a sport race and come mid field without training?

That's what Fun/open are for.