[Closed] Why don't you ride trailquests ?

Do you know what?..... the more I've read on here, the more tempted I am to give it a go.

I did some (running) orienteering events a long while ago and enjoyed them. I see the navigation bit as a strength, something that I'm quite good at and therefore a potential competitive advantage to make up for lack of absolute speed.
Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all, so the TQ might be worth a shot instead.

BUT... I have a one fundamental issue still to overcome in that I like to optimise the limited time available on a bike each weekend, so I want to fit as much fast rocky downhill/technical fun into every ride as possible and I can't see TQ satisfying this need. Correct me if you think I've underestimated the terrain but I'm expecting predominantly open moorland type stuff on TQs.

I'm waivering... convince me. 🙂

Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all

FFS XC RACING IS NOT LIKE THAT! AARGH! Why the flying F do people keep saying that?!?!!!

Who cares?

Hmmm, maybe the people spending £500 to £2000 on new mountain bikes aren't all that keen on ziptying a chopping board to their bars...
Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

i dont ride them because they are all too far from me to make the journey worthwhile, and the one that is close (Southwell in September) is on the weekend of my brothers wedding!

I have had a go at a couple and quite enjoyed them - its a different challenge to normal riding. I was quite surprised at the D&W one i did in December though. Thought we had done ok as a pair, but then realised that others had got ALL of the checkpoints. Also, there doesnt seem to be any advantage or reason for competing as a pair rather than solo, other than it is more sociable.

I will admit though that i am now at the point where XC racing holds little interest (as I have got older the categories have got even faster - Masters XC is mental fast), i am fed up of the expense and bike destroying mud of 24hr races and am keen to try different types of cycle sport.

Molgrips- it's a well known fact, just like the one about xc racers having no bike handling skills and the fact that they are basically too rubbish to be roadie so they ride around a field in garish lycra*

*baased on what some bloke said down the pub and what folks read in MBR etc..

I will admit though that i am now at the point where XC racing holds little interest (as I have got older the categories have got even faster - Masters XC is mental fast), i am fed up of the expense and bike destroying mud of 24hr races and am keen to try different types of cycle sport.

My thoughts too.

Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

You're making the mistake of lumping all of the competitors together again. TQ/Polaris has had sponsored riders on brand new top of the range XC bikes for 15 years. Not loads, but some.

I ride a full carbon hardtail and my mapboard cost more than a cheap bike from Halfords. I think you're the one who hasn't been noticing things. Where did you develop these prejudices?

oh, and to make a map board i stuck 2 bits of cardboard box together and zip tied it to my bars. Did the trick but was a bit odd to begin with not being able to see my front wheel.

As a misunderstood and callow youth I was never in the scouts.. I thought the orienteering types at school probably had inverted penises.. and I always considered ramblers, soldiers etc to be hiding a shameful secret that they think their family might disown them for..

all that aside I need a good selection of maps and a compass to use a MTB around the area I live.. and If my riding buddy hadn't had to cut back his riding hours by 90% due to work commitments we'd probably be doing the local Trailquests..

I couldn't imagine entering a trailquest on my own though.. or with people that I wasn't certain of having a really good laugh with.. otherwise it might seem a bit too much like some sort of trial by flapping maps and geekery..

I imagine a lot of the real map worshippers to be too busy playing dungeons and dragons.. or writing complaining letters to their local MPs or whingeing on internet forums ( 😯 ) to have discovered mountain biking.. but that's due to my teen prejudices lingering..

I hope that helps..

And more riders = good

Just out of curiosity what your reasoning behind this?

More people on bike on general is good for increasing people awareness of bikes on the road e.t.c but specificity more people mtbing? I'm not saying "the club is closed we're full" and personally nor would I want to stop or put someone off mtbing but I can't see many benefits to more MTBers. Possibly more technology and the odd trail centre but that's it.

Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all

FFS XC RACING IS NOT LIKE THAT! AARGH! Why the flying F do people keep saying that?!?!!!

Ignorance in my case... just 'cos that's the impression I'm getting from MM & HtN threads etc. (i.e. not from any personal experience)

<edit> maybe I should have said, the idea of racing laps of a set course (often muddy)</edit>

We did a few way back - various Trailbreak events and their Isle of Wight weekend .

I always perceived that the way to do well was to cover as much as you could on the flat, the road and the firetrails. We used to plot a route that looked interesting but that meant we did badly - to improve your score you were looking for the more boring trails.

That contrasts with Enduro riding where you're going to a new area and someone has (hopefully) identified the best trails for you and stitched them together. I think that's the main reason Trailbreak saw a move from the trailquest to the enduro at the WightDiamond - you'd get more good riding in over the weekend. Enduro's are also more sociable while you're riding - you'd meet people going in the same direction rather than racing past them heading the other way.

Also, the bikes (most) people are riding now are further from XC race bikes than they used to be so less suitable for Trailquest riding. 140-160mm bikes are not the right machines for making time on road. A few years back 'trail' travel was closer to 100mm, light weight was a big focus, and tyres were generally narrower.

I think thoose who mention "flow" are making an important point.

I love maps and reading them but reading a map on a bike is much more difficult than reading a map on foot. (ie you have to stop)

If I do want to go exploring an area then I have a map and a bike I can just head off why would I pay for an event ?

I pay for events because
1 like to compete against other people directly (ie I need to see them)
2 So I can be directed to some good trails , because no matter how good you are at reading a map you cant beat local knowledge.

MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member
There's a bit of a discussion going on in MTQ at the moment about attracting new members and increasing entries at events.

Anyway that was then. Nowadays it is all about time & money and priorities. I would love to do some more and would have done some of the Bordersmtb and XCC ones if it was not for the fact I work shifts and most of the events fell on working days.
As for how to get more people into TQing?
If I use my riding buddies as an example most do not know about TQ, most would struggle to read a map, quite a few would struggle to ride continuously for 3hrs, most(all)do not enter events of any kind,most do not use internet forums or buy magazines therefore would not be aware of TQ events or what they are.
For those of us who do use the net, buy magazines etc there is little or no info.
Locally we have the DH at Ae and other cycling events going on and unless you are in the "know" or are interested in these events then the advertising info is very poor to non existent.
Reaching out to the grass roots is maybe a way for TQ to get the numbers back up. Something along the lines of "Fun" club events of a shorter duration
Mate and I had always used maps before we started cycling so for us it was just a means of going to another area where we would or may not have gone riding
Ageing and failing eyesight just adds to the list of reasons atm 🙄

TheBrick - Member

"And more riders = good"

Just out of curiosity what your reasoning behind this?

lots of reasons:

more riders = more trails built for the purpose = more 'normal' people riding bikes (wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, kids, the family that plays together stays together etc.)

scale of manufacture should bring prices down - i think we're seeing evidence of this already.

(rockshox recons for £120)

with more bikes around, and lower prices, there should be less bike-theft.

(in much the same way that there's little point stealing DVD players anymore; everyone's got a couple, and you can buy a new one for £20)

if more people ride, there'll be less ignorance / more tolerance.

if more people ride at the weekend, maybe they'll think about riding to work/ the shops.

etc.

etc.

bikes are ace.

I ride a lot around the Peak district and I know it well. The idea of mixing the skills involved appeals. However, the thing that puts me off the events is that when I've seen riders out doing this sort of event, a noticable number of them seem really miserable and think all other riders should give them right of way simply because they're taking part in an event (even when the other riders are faster).

They just don't make it look like fun.

crikey - Member
Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

Cycling moving up in class, and that's a good thing yeah ?? 😆

Well why not let these new 'upper class' bikers polish their niches and stroke their beards while the proper bikers carry on enjoying whatever sort of riding they enjoy.

You dont need to make a map holder, just put the map in your pocket. Thats what I used to do.

I never won, or came close, I just enjoyed riding with added elements like timing, route planning, map and terrain reading etc.

Those are the bits I enjoyed most.

For me as a veteran of several Polaris in the 90s, basically I got bored of them. As stated, if you're aiming to do well then the riding is a bit dull usually (well practiced routine of searching out the fast fireroads and roads for planning the route) and for polaris at least, the riding is affected by carrying a rucksack with your gear in.

Add to that the fact that I can do enduros or other events these days (which weren't available then) that are on good routes, well supported and most importantly good fun with little planning I can see why TQs don't attract that many.

And sorry to say it but IME MTG demonstrates the demographic that TQs attract and 'older' bearded blokes shouting about being vegans hardly pulls in the younger crowd... It's all a bit beard and sandals basically.

ahwiles - Member

lots of reasons:

more riders = more trails built for the purpose = more 'normal' people riding bikes (wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, kids, the family that plays together stays together etc.)

scale of manufacture should bring prices down - i think we're seeing evidence of this already.

(rockshox recons for £120)

with more bikes around, and lower prices, there should be less bike-theft.

(in much the same way that there's little point stealing DVD players anymore; everyone's got a couple, and you can buy a new one for £20)

if more people ride, there'll be less ignorance / more tolerance.

if more people ride at the weekend, maybe they'll think about riding to work/ the shops.

etc.

etc.

Most of that is more people on bikes in general which I agree with but I'm not sure specifically more people MTBing is true.

More people -> more conflict on this crowed little island.

bikes are ace.

ofcourse

I've been asked if I want to join a team a couple of times, but I always expect the riding to be a bit uninspiring so make my excuses.

Would rather test my map-reading abilities riding solo or with a group of pals in the Lakes, just for example.

I think people are overstating the image thing here, I mean "normal" MTBers are hardly at the bleeding edge of cool are they?

crikey - which bit of my post do you find

arrogant, superior approach to explain that we are the ones at fault

?

Yours just seemed argumentative.

I was trying to put an alternative view on all the negative views of the events.

I generally think trailquests these days will only ever attract a relatively small group of folks, but could well attract people from other disciplines or sports altogether. I don't know if any advertising of events goes on in orienteering clubs etc...

I think a lot of the increase in cycling recently has come from people who don't come necessarily from a participation sports background or come from sports backgrounds other than those requiring navigation, and prefer either following waymarked trails and/or gps tracks. Therefore there's prob no desire to do navigation based events.

All of which is fair enough.

Maybe targeting non cyclists is a way to get numbers up?

Gotta say though, unless you know about trailquests, generally they are not very widely advertised.

Therefore there's prob no desire to do navigation based events.

All of which is fair enough.

Maybe targeting non cyclists is a way to get numbers up?

Gotta say though, unless you know about trailquests, generally they are not very widely advertised.

Like others did some back in the 90's including a couple of Wight Diamond challenges.
From a competition POV though it was pointless as we would go for the 'most off-road / exciting riding' routes rather than using road/firetrack to get the most points.

Since trailbreak seems to have changed more towards sportives/randonees I didn't think there were any in the South East of England now

I organised my own Navigator event once. Did it in our local riding area so the best / fastest routes between checkpoints were also the best bits of singletrack in the area.

We had a small group doing it, about 5 teams of two/three and it went down really well. All those doing it loved it, most had never done anything like that before.

Being self organised I was able to choose a good location, ensue it took in great riding and didnt have to worry about much. We then all finished up in the pub.

Quality day out.

But that wont work for large numbers. However, it would work as an introduction for small numbers. Same goes for introducing people to other events like 12/24 hr races or XC races. There are loads of people on here who reckon its just wrong to ride round a 'muddy field' for 12/24 hrs, but some of us enjoy it and realise its not what you think.

You wont convince some, but the curious would give it ago.

I read all this with interest as i'm not into events as such, i prefer 'just riding', but i like the atmosphere when i work at them and often feel like it's a case of finding an event type i like.

Did XC racing back in the day when it was fun, but it all got a bit serious / fast / couldn't ride after beers in the campsite night before. Did Meridas, brilliant routes but got fed up of being on great trails with too many riders on the course in general. MM - fun but riding laps doesn't do it for me. Big days out in small groups - perfect.. and cheaper..

I heard good things about the WRT, but TQ's don't appeal in that the focus seems to be on navigation and checkpoint bagging.

But mix some of that open-route idea, less riders all doing the same route, less over-competitive XC-racer types who mince downhill in front of you (sorry!) etc, chuck in a bivi or 2 even, and i'm interested. But i still need a good reason to follow an organised event, rather than 'just riding' for myself.

Maybe something like the Black Mtns 3-day idea, with optional routes / sections each day depending on how you feel, some reliance on navigation if you wnat to find the best trails, no podium at the end just a big beer 'n' pasta tent with a post race party would be good. spot prizes for fun. That kind of thing.

That would introduce route choice but also be a bit more open to all, maybe. Nightmare to organise though i expect!

I didn't expect this many replies.
To respond to some of the common themes then...

It does sound like Trailquesting has got an image problem. Some people are simply not going to do them because they don't see them as cool.
Someone suggested once that we rebranded them as Rural Alleycats to cash in on those mad courier races through city centres.

There's a lot of criticism of the trails used. There's very few places in the UK with 3 hours worth of singletrack in one location. When you add in the fact that we have to use legal RoWs with no cheekyness, then apart from Cannock Chase, it's inevitable that you're going to have to use roads to link it all up.

The navigation and map reading is really not all that hard, it's the route planning that needs a bit of thought.
As an example, here's a map from a recent event.
The map is supplied with just the Control Points marked, the orange highlighted line is my intended route that I drew on before the start.

[img] [/img]

With that clipped to a map board on the 'bars, it's easy enough to glance down and think "Turn right when I get to the road" or "Look for a bridleway on the left about 500m after the road junction". It doesn't interrupt the flow of the ride much at all.
Yes, there's a fair bit of road on that route, but proportionally, no more than HONC or Brecon Beast and no more than when I explore my own local bridleways.

In terms of getting more numbers its not like trying to make trailquests (MTBO Score if you like) the most popular activity ever its just a case of getting a few more people to local league event. I'd have thought getting 75-125 people at a local league summer evening event would be reasonable and perhaps a couple of hundred to a weekend one.

Trailquests are niche and its still really just grass routes stuff. The national league does just seem to be made of local league events rather than special events. Putting a trailquest section in something like transwales would probably up its profile but perhaps not appeal to the riders. Same thing with Singletrack classic weekender or CRC marathons. Trailquest on a saturday and marathon on the Sunday.

More people might do the local leagues if the national events like polaris get their act together. Three events a year would be good but perhaps a change to spring from a base camp with a night nav section, summer from a base and autumn with the overnight camp.

I don't know what it is. I assume it's explained somewhere in the thread but I just wanted to answer the OP.

HTH

Isn't the reason that TQs are not popular and HONC/MM/Trail Centres are down to the fact that a lot of people these days want the "easy" option (and no I'm not suggesting that being able to ride 100km/24hrs off road is easy) of not having to stop every 0.5/1km to check a map.

I've done a few and really like em. Just don't have a car so can't get to any.

I really think it will be hard to grow interest in this part of the sport. What is the percentage of runners who take part in orienteering?

Maybe some form of sprint event where you get a pre printed map of controls each to be collected in a set sequence and run as a time trial. You could have different lengths available at a site. One is maybe a novice/sport level at 30km and a "pro" level at 60km (or a variation thereof). So the event is based on time and for a complete set of controls you get your actual ride time. Then for each missed control you'd get a time deduction. You'd probably have to specify a max number of missed controls available before elimination (so you don't get people doing 1st and last check point and only taking 20 mins to cover the course.

Not really in the true spirit of orienteering but a basic level of following a route would be needed (rather than just sticking to the trail that is unravelling in front of you) and might interset folk into trying a full on event.

Some people just prefer doing other things. Get over it. The whole idea sounds to me to be utterly tedious and a great way to spoil a good ride, but I'm sure that won't stop you from enjoying it. Why do you feel the need to validate and justify your own activities by getting more people to take part?

As a TQ organiser and competitor, this is a really interesting thread. A lot of posters have done TQs, and it seems most have enjoyed them, but have stopped for whatever reason. Most posters don't do TQs, and want to "just ride their bikes". Trailquests for me get you to ride in an area you would normally drive past - sometimes you wouldn't normally ride there as the riding is poor, sometimes the riding is great. It's rarely a technical gnarrfest, but there are often those little snippets of woodland singletrack or fast descent that make your local trails fun.

Riding for me is about enjoying being outside and getting some blood pumping - the social side is secondary, but still important. The "stop/start" nature is mentioned above, but how many trail centre riders stop at the end of every section or the top of every molehill? That is real stop/ start.

The image problem is a difficult one to fix - maybe we need to have more images of glamourous girls (or blokes) on the adverts etc?

Hey MTQG, just chipping in as this is actually a parallel to a long-running discussion in orienteering circles - namely that you see lots of cross-country runners, fell runners and even roadrunners in the South East, but put a map into the equation and suddenly it seems wrong...

After much discussion with some friends who are orienteers, we figured that it's never going to be cool - there's no two ways about it, really. It's always going to be a relatively niche sport, and that's the unfortunate fact.
BUT at the same time, they could do a lot more to increase trial rates. Because out of the hundreds of thousands of casual on- and off-road runners out there, even if only 5% are interested after trying it, that's still several thousand new fans.

So, to that end, there's a marketing angle (where are events held? do people ever come across anything that reminds them that such a sport exists? and so on), and also a 'make it easy to try' angle - there's a view of it being quite cliquey, competed by weirdos, and while that may not be possible to shift, if you can at least get people in the door, they could see for themselves that it's fun and not full of weirdos. And perhaps most importantly, we probably have an idea of the barriers to entry (perceived distance to get to events, perception of difficulty/ weirdo level), but less of an idea of why we'd want to overcome those barriers.

I could go on, but I'm not being very coherent, I think...

I registered with MTQ last year and fully intended (along with a few other MB Swindon members)to do a couple. Usual story, club rides and events took over and left us not a lot of time for anything else. I promise we'll get around to doing it one day.

Its quite hard finding events on the internet. Never sure what to look under. I've missed some local ones because they have not come up on any websites I've looked on. Is there a website that covers all mtb events? Have seen trailquests and may be interested.
❓

trail quest is very popular on the isle of man - most local faces turn up - Graham Hughes organises good runs which are well supported by a wide age range from generations/families to the more mature. good fun and enough of a challenge for all abilities - even the best riders can make a bum choice depending on the weather. biggest surprise was when some "random" Kiwis slaughtered a 5hr course in 3 hours, went to get the Ferry & turned out to be World adventure race champs who happened to turn up on the spur of the moment when visiting mates...

i can't do the next 5hr one as i'm doing the 10@KT again . Bit disappointed but there you go. Maybe its just a collective mindset? Far prefer them to racing (as do most vie spoken to @ events)

The publicity issue is again most likely a result of it being organised at a grass roots level. Most websites are shonky to say the least doesnt help the image. 5hrs on the isle of man has an 'event' feel to it but in reality its just small scale from a village hall - I am making assumptions here. The only attempt I know of to get something a bit larger than one of the local leagues was Dark and White's Grizedale Giant. It was pulled for lack of entries. Not sure who you could blame price - less than half polaris or the area. Grizedale area isnt short of good riding.

One great aspect of trailquests is that they cover a lot of area. My friend's dad is heavily involved with the local Polaris scene which means we can just point a a bit of map and he can tell us from experience that there are no interesting trails there.

Reaching out to the grass roots is maybe a way for TQ to get the numbers back up. Something along the lines of "Fun" club events of a shorter duration

For those after info, here's a national calendar:
http://www.bmbo.org.uk/calendar/

...and for midlands based riders, one for MTQ, which doesn't talk to BMBO so don't get on their calendar (don't you just love splits in a small niche sport 🙄 )
http://www.midlandtrailquests.co.uk/events-and-results/events.php

However, the thing that puts me off the events is that when I've seen riders out doing this sort of event, a noticable number of them seem really miserable and think all other riders should give them right of way simply because they're taking part in an event (even when the other riders are faster).

They just don't make it look like fun.

The SE have gone there own way - a varriation on the same theme as all the BMBO affiliated events, checkpoint value seems to be the main difference.

[url= http://www.gorrick.com/trailtrax/index.php ]http://www.gorrick.com/trailtrax/index.php[/url]

I always perceived that the way to do well was to cover as much as you could on the flat, the road and the firetrails. We used to plot a route that looked interesting but that meant we did badly - to improve your score you were looking for the more boring trails

The thing is, if you're not going to threaten the pointy end, why not just do it the way you want to and not worry too much about having been beaten by a few people who had less fun than you did. Just treat the event as a structure to your route plan which takes you places you might not have gone otherwise.

The Scottish series is very inclusive for the grassroots - really good vibe tbh. Generational entrants (Dads and /or Mams and children), juniors etc - been impressed with the overall friendliness and structure. Not massive fields, but certainly enough to feel like an event.
Obviously family-orientated MTB event is quite polarising if that's not you, but it's definitely a strand of identity to exploit in the context of increasing MBO's popularity.

It's not worth over-thinking, either. As has been mentioned, our recreational lives are far more fragmented these days. Everything is under more pressure for our attention and choice is massive. XC racing has been decimated from the glory days of the 90s for example. We want TQs / MBO to be viable events, numbers greater than 2 men and a dog, but beyond that it's probably not realistic to grow the sport beyond a basic sustainability.

Hi
apologies I havnt had time to read the whole thread as I am flying to Sweden today to compete in a Mountain Bike Orienteering World Cup race and spent last night packing.

In fact there are also 15 UK riders competing in the World Masters Champs held concurrently, where we expect to bring home some Gongs like last year.

Walton Chasers are putting on 4 low key TQ style events coming up in the next few weeks (similar to Dark and White)
http://www.walton-chasers.co.uk/?p=559

Please do not confuse Mountain Bike Orienteering (MTBO, MBO) in its International form, ie shorter formats on specialist large scale orienteering maps with MBO Score or Trailquest on 1:50,000 maps.
Yes they are both navigation on bikes but there the similarities end.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/2011/02/mountain-bike-orienteering-hits-stafford/

Anyone wanting a flavour of MTBO races as apposed to TQs see

www.mbosouth.co.uk

also check out this Headcam footage from last years world champs sprint ( 25min) race in a town in portugal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvfvIuO5AwA

There are a series of good vids from the World Champs in Israel in 2009 too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahOHKRDUie4&feature=player_embedded

The Scottish series is very inclusive for the grassroots - really good vibe tbh. Generational entrants (Dads and /or Mams and children), juniors etc - been impressed with the overall friendliness and structure. Not massive fields, but certainly enough to feel like an event.
Obviously family-orientated MTB event is quite polarising if that's not you, but it's definitely a strand of identity to exploit in the context of increasing MBO's popularity.

It's not worth over-thinking, either. As has been mentioned, our recreational lives are far more fragmented these days. Everything is under more pressure for our attention and choice is massive. XC racing has been decimated from the glory days of the 90s for example. We want TQs / MBO to be viable events, numbers greater than 2 men and a dog,

+1

if an organiser can get in contact with "how to do it" details we'll have a look at it for 2012 (we have restarted XC racing in the NW so why not MBO). The kit is obviously a big issue but we operate in an area where one should be viable if some thought is put in and a "family event" would be good. We already have a dodgy website and good sponsor contacts 😉 .