personally its not the image that puts me off... after all, as mountainbikers we're not exactly the most fashionable beasts in the woods!
i'd say its the fact that riding for me is about messing around in the woods with my friends... no structure, no route plans... just 'ohhh lets see where that goes!, 'that was fun, lets do it again' and 'i'm so freaking happy to be sharing this experience with my friends who, when able to breath again, are all grinning from ear to ear'
beardy-sockswithsandles-mapboard-cardigan image aside.... it just doesnt come across (to me personally) as a fun activity for someone who doesnt like racing or structured playtime.
Never organised one but [url= http://www.bmbo.org.uk/organisers/index.php ]BMBO running events guide[/url] for budding organisers. I'd thought about sticking my neck out and doing a Teesdale one, fortunately NEMBOs turned up instead. I'd be up for some West Pennines / South Pennines riding although last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways.
I haven't read the thread but I'll chip in with why I wouldn't do one -
- It all sounds a bit lame. Like World Of Warcraft for bikers.
- Why spoil a ride with a treasure hunt? Navigate if you need to, otherwise just ride.
- Seems like inventing a new sport for the sake of inventing it.
I've nothing against anyone who takes part, I just think you'd all have more fun if you just went out riding.
I've done a few years ago. The last one was in the Forest of Dean. About half way through we rode to the top of a hill for a high score checkpoint but along with about 8 other people at the chechpoint at that time we were unable to find it. We then went for a cheese toastie at pedalabikeaway and then a play on the DH tracks. I think we were only 4th from last.
It turned out some over-competitive cheat had removed the checkpoint stamp.
That's an interesting point about racing on bridleways.
Perhaps I should mention that, despite my name on STW, I am just an ordinary member of MTQ. I have organised one event and helped at a couple of others, but I am not a club organiser and my views are my own, not official club policy.
As I understand it, MTQ broke away from BMBO because some people weren't happy about "racing" on bridleways because it's illegal.
All MTQ events are what BMBO would call "Score Events", which makes them a "Navigation" event, not a "Speed" event, so they can legally take place on public RoWs.
It all seems a bit trivial when you look at all the various "Enduros", "Marathons" and "Challenges" taking place on public RoWs.
I've heard of Walton Chasers and the Gorrick series. Stidge's link is the first I've heard of MBOSouth.
Personally, I'd rather see one club covering the whole country. But then, I'd like to see the various 12 & 24 hour races around the country combined in to a national series as well.
To respond to a couple more points raised;
Why the criticism of meeting in village halls ?
What are the alternatives ? A pub car park or a tent in a field ? It's somewhere warm and dry with a car park.
Several people mention the map reading and score card punching as interrupting the flow of a ride.
As large418 says, most forum rides have far less flow than a trailquest, it's the main thing that puts me off group rides. In a 3 hour trailquest, I probably spend less than 15 minutes stationary. In a 3 hour BikeRadar Wyre Forest ride it would be over an hour.
Haven't done a trailquest since I rode a Mount Vision (circa 1998).
Really enjoyed them, and the Mount vision, in their day.
Sadly the frameset has been languishing in the roof for many years - might build it into a ski-bike one day soon!
It all sounds a bit lame.
Another recurring theme.
It's as lame as you want it to be.
To go back to my original post, HONC sounds a bit lame. 50 or 100km of lanes and tame bridleways on the Cotswolds, with several locals posting on STW about how it missed out a lot of the good trails in the area.
It still sold out within 2 hours of going live on line though.
Having had a go at trying to portray why I wouldn't do a TQ, which did come across as more critical than I was aiming for, I feel I should really try to be more helpful.
It seems to me that the concept, as with orienteering, is a niche within a niche within a... essentially to get round a TQ you need to be a reasonably competent rider, with the ability to navigate, and the desire to do both at once. All together a bit intimidating; hence, I suppose the lack of new (to mountain biking and events in general) faces.
The navigation is obviously an integral part of TQ, but that's the bit that most people would see as the difficult part, so, in my opinion, the best way forward would be to minimise that for new riders.
You could run a beginners TQ, with groups or individuals or pairs getting navigational advice from [s]crusty old ****ers[/s] more experienced TQers at the start.
Or, as noted above, run some, not all, but some TQs as a 'visit all the points' circuit, with different lengths of circuit and times to finish in.
My experience with orienteering was through my fell running club; they put on an event and I entered, seeing it as a one-off 'practice' for fell racing. It was different to fell racing because of the route choice, but I chose to run it to win, or try to, and, as above I cut out the good stuff in favour of the fast stuff. Maybe there is the option of combining a TQ with a different event like Mayhem; feeding off the popularity.
In general terms, I think fewer check points would help reduce the perception of navigating on a bike; pick an area with optional routes, choose 5 checkpoints and let people really go to town on the route choice.
The other thing that occurs to me with the rise in popularity of rigid bikes and cyclocrossers is to aim for those people; the 3 peaks used to spawn a number of reliability rides in the North West; there is a market for organised not-races, with limited navigation aimed at a particular type of cyclist.
Another possible option is to release the details of the checkpoints before the event; get them out on the web, let the poring over maps and choosing the right route be done at home or in the pub, then turn up and get going on the day. Or even the night before to encourage folk to travel and camp or B&B; local economy booster...
Can't think of any more things at the mo, but it's a viable event, let down a lot by a poor image and a certain level of required skill that puts people off at the start. More checkpoint choices that force people to ride the best bits of an area would help too, and some kind of link to trail centres, to get the people riding in a controlled environment, then expand to outside...
Image is no concern because everyone looks a dick on a bike, spd sandals or five tens no one cool's going to be very impressed. It's just the thought of turning something I do to unwind into a little mirror of the work environment - targets, competition, routine, strategies etc - that puts me off. It sounds ****ing mental to me (and that goes for any kind of leisure time sport). Mind you, racing seems popular with plenty of folk so my thoughts are just a drop in the ocean here.
Why the criticism of meeting in village halls ?
I think that was me. It wasn't a criticism of meeting in village halls as such, but the point being, it's just another part of the image ie cream teas at the end and shake hands with the vicar along with the other geography teachers in their socks and sandals. I'm sure it's not like that really (or maybe it is?).
Is it something that might appeal to outdoorsmagic rather than bikemagic? orienteering, but covering more ground, I dunno. It doesn't appeal to me tho and I'm a keen map reader and navigator, but I'd rather spend the afternoon on bikes with philconsequence ^^ in that his idea of a great time on a bike is the same as mine.
I think they do one in the Wyre Forest, MidlandTrailquestsGraham I guess you would know 😉
Sounds like it could be fun.
A couple of good points there, Crikey.
I've thought that combining a trailquest with another event might be a good way to get new entrants.
Wiggle 6 had the night time trial the night before. One of the Merida Marathions had a night ride on the Saturday before the main event on Sunday. Even MM has got a road sportive.
Would people want to ride two hard event in one weekend, or even one day though ?
If people think they are going to turn up and be told "Here's your map, see you in three hours" and be left to it, that would be a bit daunting.
There will always be someone at a trailquest to help beginners with route planning and so on.
I think some sort of beginners event would be a good idea though, maybe with an experienced rider leading a small group of first timers.
last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways
They are wrong. TQs are specifically NOT races, never advertised as races and are a test of navigation, not of speed. Some organisers go a bit wrong by making the course clearable and then awarding the win to the person who does it in the fastest time. In the original rules the win should be awarded to the person who has the most high value checkpoints, then if still a tie (if I remember right) to the person who started first - so never any question of racing.
CRC Marathons are also not races for the same reason as TQs - which is that races are illegal on bridleways - it's a crap law though, so whether anyone ever would put it to the test in court is a moot point.
I just think you'd all have more fun if you just went out riding.
I invariably have more fun when doing a TQ than when just out riding - but then I'm afflicted by a swollen overcompetitive gland
I have been following this with interest as I know that organisers are currently looking at ways to encourage more to try these events.
Some good points have been raised and personally I think it is this image problem that seems to put most new people off plus the map bit which seems to scare people but really isn't that bad. In reality though you can't beat these events for value for money and as many have said you can take the competitive element as casually or seriously as you want.
If you struggle with the image of these events try picturing them more like rallying on mountain bikes because its about as close as you can get without an engine. (I used to rally and find it ticks most of the same boxes even down to scaring yourself ---tless now and then!)
I have done Polaris and trailquest events for years but I have no beard and am hopefully far from fuddy duddiness! I do plenty of 'normal' riding and trail centre stuff too but can honestly say that much of the best riding I have done has been during these events in places I would probably never have gone otherwise.
Crikey - you made a lot of good points and suggestions, I think the idea of a set route or similar for first timers would be good. Incidently, and its not a dig but I cannot agree with the 'class/income moving on from this level' thing you mentioned earlier, I ride an Anthem X and many have more exotic bikes, plenty don't of course and still beat plenty of those that do. As with all events you see a varied spread of people at trailquests too all of whom seem very friendly and sociable.
I mainly now compete in NYMBO (North Yorkshire series, Nymbo.org.uk)
which are very well organised with good maps, no marking up, electronic scoring and above all very good value!
The September round at Dalby usually involves sections of the RED route and is followed the next day by an Enduro event round the local North York Moors.
GO ON give one a go and then decide.
sorry for the longer than intended post. Cheers
To go back to my original post, HONC sounds a bit lame. 50 or 100km of lanes and tame bridleways on the Cotswolds, with several locals posting on STW about how it missed out a lot of the good trails in the area.
Seem to recall the same complaints being levelled at each of the English CRC marathons and their earlier incarnations.
Problem with trailquests is as soon as you start describing them they do come over a bit lashings of ginger beer.
Like most competative events is broadly
Turn up to start, put bike together faff and talk to people, register, collect timing chip and get more info on the event / course, start, compete for 2, 3, 4 5 or more hours, finish, drink tea, eat biscuits, talk to people, go to cafe / pub or home. Because its about navigation you can be a map nerd as much or as little as you want. Ask questions if you want. Sometimes there are prizes sometime not - Blanchland NEMBOs it was wine, sometimes their are freebies sometime there are not - Dark and White give you a cliffe bar. Come on what do you want for an event that costs a tenner. Sunshine will make things seem better showers will make them seem worse. Storms make for adventures. If you can do 40 - 50km in three hours you'd probably finish in the top half of the table. Unlike a lot of cross country races first is first there's no elite, sports, pros etc everyone is fun class.
On the compete bit - if you've got two hours your not going to be sitting around planning its really just look and go. Longer evenets give you more time. Shorten things to an hours an it'll be sprint lunacy - probably more niche rather than less. There's a few copies of the map round the start / finish so you can get some feel for the area. If you want a nerd tip - the locations of the start are usually given a couple of weeks before hand. An A4 map @ 50thou covers around 14km by 10km so you look at the riding within a 14km radius of the start you get and idea of whats there. Start is by punching an electronic chip - a variation on the timing chips used in running and biking events all over the UK. Punch in and the clock is running. You get given a map with the checkpoints marked on and a sheet giving a better desription of where it is - something simple like North side of track, telegraph pole. I dont usually bother with them as checkpoints in the events I do are marked with a bit of barrier tape and below it is a little beeping box. Punch in with the timing chip. Head off to next.
Trailquests dont make boring riding but bad course designers do.
I'd be up for some West Pennines / South Pennines riding although last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways.
views may differ seeing as a Lancs CC RoW officer is running a "mini" one on the weekender which will have riders on a Bridleway.
My view is that it's an ideal way of an area promoting itself and should be targetting families, it's about getting people to explore an area and enjoy themselves etc. Good sponsorship and promotion is the way forward to bring new people into riding real trails rather than focusing on whether its all about beards, sandals and marins and sneering by people who would never organise anything that didn't fill their own pocket.
If someone knows their way around these things and the organisation required we want to hear about it info@brownbacksracing.co.uk
Its definately a point of view thing as a few marathon type events seem to run through the same patch and yet they arent viewed as races. It was in the context of this would be a great area for a... Local for locals might get a different response. BTW wasnt Lancs.
Use of the word "quest". Fix that and you will be fine
Interesting the [b]Atitude[/b] of some TQ riders that has been mentioned by other posters.
Go look at this thread via Graham's id website, and feel the love
[url= http://www.midlandtrailquests.co.uk/forum/forum-view-thread.php?topic=4&thread=12 ]http://www.midlandtrailquests.co.uk/forum/forum-view-thread.php?topic=4&thread=12 [/url]
Oh, and yesterday my mate going uphill at a TQ was taken out by some knob bowling down hill far faster than he was able to stop. She was going ~3 miles an hour and her bike landed over a hedge a way behind her.
He and the rider who followed closely after apparently seemed more interested in "getting on" rather than checking my mate was OK.
Nice.
PS. She still won though.
cream teas at the end
i'm suddenly interested
Use of the word "quest". Fix that and you will be fine
They've already done that. Officially they are now called MBO Score events (mountain bike orienteering) - it's just that lots of people still call them Trailquests.
Have a look at the [url= http://www.bmbo.org.uk/ ]BMBO[/url] website for more info on this whole thing.
Blimey, still going? It's simple really, isn't it.
1. People doing the snappily renamed MBO score events are happy with them as is and don't see any real need to change them.
2. People who don't do them, the ones who maybe would be potential participants, see them as archaic, fuddy duddy, weird things.
The reality, squirming TQers, is that they do seem a bit old fashioned, so you either live with that and get on with having a charmingly Victorian niche event or you consider dragging the format kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.
How? Talk to the likes of Garmin. Embrace and incorporate GPS technology. Learn from stuff like geo-caching, which is accessible and popular with families. Ban Tracksters... Tech it up a bit, incorporate short trials sections with bonus points. Or special stages. Run an urban event on a quiet Sunday afternoon etc.
But see '1', if the people running the sport are happy with it as is, then they won't be fundamentally changing it any time soon. Will they?
Personally it doesn't bother me at all that I am in a niche when I'm doing a TQ/MBO and the ONLY reason that I would like to see more people in the sport is because having a bigger pool of competitors leads through into having more organisers of events - so more events on offer to take part in.
TQ has always been a bit different to many other niches within mountainbiking in that many of the organisers only put on one event a year, for no (or very little) financial gain, but just because they are part of the "club" -so the more people in the club, the more events we get.
I've planned 2 MTBO events in the last 3 years, for which I got no payment whatsoever as I did it under the auspices of my orienteering club and they got the profits we made - but I don't mind as I know there are other enthusiasts out there doing the same for me (and in fact the process is quite fun anyway).
The idea of bringing the sport into the 21st century with the use of GPS is a bit curious. I just don't see how that would work, or what the point would be - why not bring mountainbiking into the 21st century by using motorbikes?
Seriously though, I don't see how a GPS would add to the experience, or even be helpful. It's a bit like those guys in Arab souks using abacuses to do their sums - if you know what you're doing then they are quicker than calculators. If you can read a map then a GPS is redundant.
Mmm, interesting. I have only ever done one - a White and Dark event from Monsal Dale - and I loved it. Why have I not done another? No idea. I'm not riding much at the mo' anyway so that's the first problem. What did strike me about the Monsal Dale one was that I got a reasonably good quality ride - and respectable position - because I knew the area fairly well. I didn't therefore spend a lot of time checking the map. I imagine if I was in an unfamiliar area I'd get a bit irritated with the map reading. I simply cannot ride fast whilst checking a map.
The one thing that my competitive streak was not so keen on is the massive variety in abilities. This was my first trailquest and I was up against people wearing UK Mountain Bike Orienteering shirts. I assume they earned them. If I'm going to race I want to be up against similar abilities so I have a fighting chance of being competitive.
I think the other factor is cost. I so rarely get to ride these days that I'm a bit reluctant to pay for the privilege.
Overall though, I loved it and have never done it since. Go figure 😯
...either live with that and get on with having a charmingly Victorian niche event or you consider dragging the format kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.
We ran our Navigator series from the early 90s until just a couple of years ago. At their peak the events could attract over 400 riders, but this dwindled to under 100 per event in later years. We tried several approaches to update and broaden the appeal of the events, including allowing GPS and introducing set course sections. None of these really brought in new riders though, and in general, any changes we made were unpopular with established riders (particularly the fixed course sections!). In the end it just became clear that the events were no longer viable for us, given that we are a business have to make living from our events. Which isn't to say that they can't carry on happily as an enthusiast run format (and I hope they do), but I don't see them becoming a big thing again any time soon. I don't think you can change them too much without effectively scrapping the format and starting something new from scratch, as the people who love doing them don't want them to change.
In the end, after giving it many years of thought, I think we came to the conclusion that it was just natural evolution. These events became popular at time when mountain biking anywhere outside of a race involved getting hold of a map and exploring, whether that was your local area or further afield. TQs, Navigators etc, were a natural extension of that and added an extra dimension to the nature of the sport.
Mountain biking has changed enormously since then. It's moved away from the 'outdoor pursuits' world to something much more service industry led, and fragmented into a dozen or more different sub genres along the way. Open hill riding of any sort is a smaller part of the picture these days, and in an events context, the masses don't want to read maps and don't even see it as essential skill for MTBing. The more independent bikers who still like to get out exploring and do their own thing, by their nature, are less likely to get involved in events in the first place.
I think BWD is about right, (even if his phrasing is a little narky). Navigation events still exist because there are still people riding who were there at a particular time in mountain biking. I don't say that in a sniffy way, because I remember that period too and it was a good time. I think it would take a major revival in self-sufficient outdoor pursuits as a whole though to see any real growth in MTB navigation events now.
If you can read a map then a GPS is redundant.
I have never ridden with a GPS but I don't agree with this. I can read a map and work out that to go from checkpoint X to checkpoint Y I need to go down a track for 2 km, pass through 2 gates, turn right after the fifth wall, cross the field diagonally to another gate, bear right to another gate before picking up the 3rd track on the left etc. My problem is I can't bloomin' well remember all that so I'm always stopping to check the next couple of instructions. Granted that is my poor memory, but is a great reason why a GPS would help.
I've done a few Polaris events and Trailquests, and I enjoy them. I like to navigate and ride based on my decisions. I also have done waymarked courses and have enjoyed them too. Both are fun but in very different ways.
I often sit on top of the hills near Builth Wells spinning along following 799 other riders in the marathon over there, thinking why it's so popular. For many riders now it represents a big effort to ride that distance in that terrain. Maybe MTBers now just don't ride the distances that they used to. Some of us do, but some don't. We've evolved and will continue to do so.
But I also think MTBers have evolved as part of a general lifestyle difference. Many of us have put our UK road maps at the back of the cupboard and now use satnav to drive to trail centres that tell us which way to ride - Double down arrow and 'Watch out! Dangerous descent!!' It's very easy to do that, or even to just ride the same routes in the woods near me. Compared to an easy narrated/pointed follow-me option it's really hard to even think about using a map when most people may not know how to (I'm not saying being able to do SAS class navigation, just enough to get around).
And does the naming of some of the naviational events put people off at all? The word 'Trailquest' especially the 'quest' part sounds a bit like a role playing game and conjures up images of beards, map boards and buffalo jackets. Whereas 'Hell of the North Cotswolds' clearly sounds like some massive challenge - ok it seems in reality it may not be. But for some of my mates who do HONC it represents an early season target to socialise and test themselves out. It doesn't seem to matter to most that it's on minor roads or poor quality bridleways.
Not sure how to solve things or move forwards, but it sounds like there are social powers swirling around that have affected many of this type of event. Polaris seems to have died a death despite being incredibly popular only 10 years ago. But then there were no/few trail centres back then, and what may now be seen as a tough way to do things (navigation) was more of the norm.
Perhaps navigational events need to change the way they are branded, marketed, and even diversify to include part waymarked, part naviational stages. Not sure if TransWales is more like that or not, with its special timed stages.
Very interesting stuff.
Granted that is my poor memory, but is a great reason why a GPS would help.
You've still got to look at the GPS - and it's not like Nav in a car where the unit already knows the network of routes, so do you sit down for half an hour before you start and program the route in? And what if you get halfway round and decide you need to change your route? Do you stop for another 15 minutes to programme a new route (thereby using up even more time so you have to change it again?).
Learning to read the map is a skill that you get better at - seeing past extraneous detail and concentrating on the important bits, and map-memory is also something you can improve.
Martin is probably right about decreasing numbers, in that at the peak of popularity of TQ there was less competition from other events, but I think Trailbreak also made the decision to follow the relatively easy money through their Trail RIdes and Sportives and didn't pay enough attention to the quality of their Navigator events - thus making a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Also, the whole marketing direction of mountain biking doesn't do TQ any favours. The message through the mags is all about all mountain bikes, trail centres etc, which is all fine, but they really aren't interested in covering TQ/MTBO type stuff so it's true that many newbies to mountainbiking don't hear much about it. OTOH whenever I speak to newbies after events, they almost always tell me they enjoyed it. Ironic really.
Mountain biking has changed enormously
I think this has a lot to do with why there's a huge amount of mountainbikers that would never entertain the idea of entering a Trailquest.
In the early days of the sport, you went out with a map and found routes in the hills to ride and I could be wrong, but I think a greater proportion of riders were "cyclists" rather than "bikers" if you get my drift. I used to pore over the o.s. map for hours planning road rides, let alone mtb rides.
The move towards bigger and gnarlier and quick thrill type of riding has brought a whole new crowd into mountainbiking who I don't ever see being convinced that TQ = fun.
My experience of GPS is from WAAAYYYY back in the day when they were massive units that were still being scrambled by the US military. I then skipped car Satnavs and outdoor GPS units to what I now have on my Smartphone, so maybe I'm assuming you can do something that isn't possible BUT I did assume that it was quick and easy to plot a route on a GPS at the start of the trail quest and quick and easy to change half way round. I also know that they have arrows on telling you where and when to turn. That to me sounds easier to follow at pace than a map on a map board.
As I said above, I'm not a GPS lover or user when biking and I enjoy navigating by map only. I just don't accept that GPS will not give an advantage in these kind of events and allow someone to make more of the riding. I DO understand that some people simply prefer the navigational element using the map only.
The only time (I think) that a GPS would give an advantage is when person setting the course has used one to put the course out! (which IMO shouldn't be done)
I've had discussions with organisers before when I've not found a control where I was expecting to find it and they've said "but we used a GPS" (mainly in adventure races actually) - when the competitors themselves where not allowed to use a GPS. The reason that this is wrong is that actually maps do not always correspond exactly with GPS readings, because maps are an *interpretation* of what is on the ground. For example, roads are not really as wide in real life as they are shown on the map and corners might be exaggerated on the map to help the person using it. I've had similar problems where organisers have used 1:25,000 maps to set the course, but the competitors have been given 1:50,000 maps and somehow been expected to find controls when they don't have the information available to the course planner. (sorry if this is getting a bit technical, but it is relavant to those taking part, even if they don't realise it).
Organisers should use the same navigation aids to plan/put the course out as the competitors have to follow it.
All day lift assisted navigation event in the Alps. PDS, Les Arcs. Bigger points for places you have to climb to yourself.
I think franki's got it about right - I was doing the trailbreak events in the late 90's/early 00's and there seemed quite a mix of people doing it - if you went mtbing then it was mostly looking for likely bridleways and riding them. As someone I think's mentioned, anyone doing cyclocross might be interested - possibly some roadies, given that it's generally less technical, too.
The 'I can't imagine...', closed mind attitude is a bit sad but I guess that's the biking equivalent of drinking lager 😉 I guess you'll always get people minding up their mind from a position of ignorance (as in lack of knowledge). I've ridden regularly in Swinley (with bobmbc or otherwise) and did a lot of the Welsh trailcentres some years ago (camping over a very cold week in december :o), and the TQ events were some of the most enjoyable riding I've dome..come to think about it, that was why I bought my first lot of Lumicycles. I partly stopped 'cos my TQ partner moved away, tho' I did some of the short (1.5 hr) summer event events solo.... but the next time I thought about them trailbreak had stopped doing them.
The combination of not running a car for some years (tho' swinley's relatively near), and losing my mtb mojo (such as it was- being concerned over twisting about twisting a dodgy knee...and crappy neck, for that matter) I've largely given up mtbing for road-riding on a recumbent - I really can't be bothered to get over to swinley for the same old stuff. So to that extent I *can* imagine doing TQs again - whoever posted the trailtrax link - thanks, that might get me out 😉
I like puzzles & I like bimbling, so it sounds like fun.
One with decent scenery, longer time limit, a route with lotsoff offroad options and quiet roads would be a great day out, I reckon.
The image doesn't bother me BTW & you usually get good cake at village halls.
The very fact that this thread has got to 5 pages shows to me that many people (on here) have an opinion on Trailquests (and their ilk). I think trailbreak-martin has got it bang on - MTB is changing, and TQ is not what most riders are now looking for (that also explains why the age group of people doing TQs is generally 35+).
So, the options on increasing participation in TQs are:
close trail centres (not popular)
encourage mags to "make TQ trendy"
get existing participants to smile more
change the name to "Hell of the Trail" or "Adventure MegaChallenge" or something a little more exciting
So, the options on increasing participation in TQs are:
close trail centres (not popular)
encourage mags to "make TQ trendy"
get existing participants to smile more
change the name to "Hell of the Trail" or "Adventure MegaChallenge" or something a little more exciting
No, the option is to change the event to make it more appealing to people who find the current format unappealing. Not just changing the name, but actually changing what it is. Or just accept that TQ is what it is and that a lot of people don't find it an attractive option.
You won't like this, but the impression I get from the people involved in TQs on this thread is that they're unimaginative about what they could do as an alternative, or maybe, a less 'narky' way of looking at it, is that they like the events as they are. And that's fair enough, but you can't have your cake and eat it. If you genuinely want lots more partipants, and maybe it's not possible, I'd change things.
If I were Trailbreaks, I'd be on the phone to Garmin or Magellan right now with a brilliant concept for a GPS-based adventure event that they could splash their brand all over and that feels modern and original and exciting and nothing to do with Tracksters 😉
The only time (I think) that a GPS would give an advantage is when person setting the course has used one to put the course out! (which IMO shouldn't be done)
In the context of a classic TQ, Orienteering etc. maybe.
In the modern day people expect to be able to download an app and grab the instructions/waypoints to their iPhone/android/garmin etc.
I've had discussions with organisers before when I've not found a control where I was expecting to find it and they've said "but we used a GPS" (mainly in adventure races actually) - when the competitors themselves where not allowed to use a GPS. The reason that this is wrong is that actually maps do not always correspond exactly with GPS readings, because maps are an *interpretation* of what is on the ground.
Classic mistake made with Geocaches from time to time. If everyone is set to WGS84 then it's usually just 2x accuracy errors to care about (although I expect most geocachers forget about the setter's accuracy). But if one is set to WGS84 and another to a different datum then there can be some crazy errors (100s of metres?). The guy setting the waypoint should realise that there's a massive discrepancy, when trying to map that point!
I did look in to TQ way back.. but then I moved to the mountain biking mecca called the Netherlands (and then later Germany - Actually TQ sounds like the kind of thing Germans would be into).
You do have to ask... who's going to do a TQ on a specific Sunday aftenoon, when there's things like Geocaching and Waymarking out there that can be done by anyone at any time on foot, on bike, by car, at any time. The multi-caches have some kind of "puzzle" or challenge built in to them although like TQ I guess there are good ones that take you to "interesting" waypoints, and bad ones that take you to random waypoints. There are other GPS/Navigation games too, but they're even more niche.
And as for the map that was posted a few pages back... to me that's not mountain biking at all. Looks like 90% road, 10% bridlepath. Maybe it was not a good example? 😕
If I were Trailbreaks, I'd be on the phone to Garmin or Magellan right now with a brilliant concept for a GPS-based adventure event that they could splash their brand all over and that feels modern and original and exciting and nothing to do with Tracksters
I'd love to hear what this is, as I can't hink of one. The only thing that I find interesting about GPSs is as a recording device to show me where I went wrong when map reading after the event.
Can't say that I'm personally bowled over at the idea of geocaching.
I suspect that some super new GPS based bike event would be, as you say, unappealing to the people who currently like TQs, so rather pointless in terms of the current discussion, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong if you can think of something.The fact that GPSs have been around for quite a few years now without anyone coming up with some brilliant new format suggests to me that there isn't one to be had. TQ organisers aren't stick in the muds and have tried all sorts of variations on the theme.
BWD don't mention GPS in a discussion about TQ or orienteering.
They think they're the devils work.
#1 - Because they're a bit like an easter egg hunt for adults,but without the chocolate
#2 - They look dull.....
#3 - Don't think anything they could do to them would make me want to do one,the idea of looking for something on a map over & over again just isn't my idea of fun
So about ths size of it is there's enough to sustain local leagues and possibly one or two bigger events but on the whole what people want to do has moved on. Being British we've replaced riding around with maps by a nice queue on trails you could ride for fee.
I supose the other thing is larger events have now been replaced by adventure races like the open series.
I LOVE cycling and all the different challenges it presents and as National MTBO Score Champion my results highlights show that I am far from a bearded, sandaled Marin rider. Although I did ride a Marin but with Pikes and a Vanilla R rear shock!! Now ride a Giant Anthem, much quicker
Can't wait for the Polaris this year as they have promised predominantly Dark Peak riding. So the winner should hopefully be a fast technical rider with ninja map riding skills and a cunning route to back it up! Hopefully it will be me 😀
Cycling Highlights
Cycled from Lhasa to Kathmandu via Everest Base Camp
[b]Cycled 2750 miles off road from Canada to Mexico following the 'Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail'
British Mountain Bike Orienteering (BMBO) Overall Champion 2010
BMBO Senior League Champion 2010
5th TransWales 2009
Singletrack Classic Weekender 'Unofficial Best All Round Mountain Biker in the UK' 2009 Overall Champion[/b]
Wark Forest BMBO National League Overall Champion May 2009
2nd Hit the North Winter Sprinter Feb 2009
1st Tiviot Dale Summer Mountain Bike Race 2007
13th TransScotland 2007
2nd in first ever mountain bike race at Lee Quarry 2007
7th Scottish Masters National XC Championships 2007
3rd in Bickerstaffe 4th Cat Road Race!
17th TransWales 2006
DQ'd for lapping the Elite riders at Preston Crits after Stockport Clarion got a 1st,2nd,3rd May 2007. Still don't know why?
14th NPS Downhill Race at Bedgelert 1994. Unseeded smashed the course record even after two dog walkers stepped out in front of me and caused me to crash in sight of the finish. Lost loads of time but still beat Steve Peat and Rob Warner who had much worse crashes than mine (don't know if dog walkers were involved).
2nd 1989 In first ever National Mountain Bike Dual Slalom race at Bosley. Glad I came 2nd won a cool pair of fluro pink JT glasses rather than a roof rack for the winner.
[url= http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2011/5721915921_1261f9f9a3.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/53631447@N03/5721915921/ ]090825000855_H[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/53631447@N03/ ]Mountybiker[/url], on Flickr
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5027/5842587087_bc4baffbfe.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/53631447@N03/5842587087/ ]Singletrack Classic Weekender 2009[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/53631447@N03/ ]Mountybiker[/url], on Flickr
[url= http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3545/5842598887_2cc6642ce4.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/53631447@N03/5842598887/ ]McMoab[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/53631447@N03/ ]Mountybiker[/url], on Flickr
Being British we've replaced riding around with maps by a nice queue on trails you could ride for fee
You can ride around with a map for free as well! And pick your own route, length of ride, pace, use of footpaths, etc...
