Men and women in [i]not the same shocker[/i]. The lack of women participating in any combat sport or motor sport doesn't seem to have been an issue in holding them back.
Men have more testosterone which makes us aggressive, competitive and a danger to ourselves. Women in general don't share these traits quite as strongly.
I'm not bothered by a lack of women in mtb, in the same way I'm not bothered by a lack of women in boxing. To me mountain biking isn't pootling around fire roads and bridleways, and I am not surprised that so few women partake, even when they do I have little appetite to see them taking risks and hurting themselves.
davidtaylforthProbably because alot of the people who ride mountain bikes are teenage lads or macho choppers. It gives the sport a bit of an immature image and consequently it doesnt get taken very seriously (this is probably more to do with the more extreme side of it like dh)
Seriously, how would you market the sport? Bearded men in jumpers on rigid single speeds smoking pipes on country lanes? The image that DH has does nothing to harm the sport, it's probably the driving force for getting most new blood into the sport.
Woman are not alientated by mountain biking as a sport. They MAY be alienated by some male mountain bikers though.
can what STWers do be classed as 'sport'? I'd call it more like a leisure activity really
A good point, but a different point. It harks back to whether a "sport" is defined by a competitive element. Chess, for example.
I would describe what I'm doing on bikes as a "adventurous* outdoor leisure activity", conceptually similar to cragging or hill-walking.
* adventurous in the sense that every ride could result in a broken neck.
* adventurous in the sense that every ride could result in a broken neck.
I feel the same way about sex.
😆
It would be nice if more female mtb'ers were out there like this. I guess she's one in a million though.
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]Darcey[/url]
A straw poll of the coast to coast on a Sunday afternoon would suggest that it's not cycling, distances, lack of toilets, fitness, hills, lycra or psychopathic dogs that put women off (although you very seldom see an all woman riding group.)
The ladies I know who enjoy a wider variety of riding have needed a good deal of encouragement to get muddy and start getting their wheels off the ground.
I know plenty of women into Mountain Biking, but in every case except one, none of them are happy fixing/fettling their own bike. And I think this is what puts a lot more women off than the mud/sweat/bruises in the long run.
My ex got into Mountain Biking when she was with me, she said she'd have got into it before when she was single, but wouldn't have had a clue what to buy, how to maintain it etc. Most of us blokes with a little mechanical knowledge take for granted just how daunting some things that seem so simple to us can be.
It is not as simple as "girls like shopping, blokes like getting muddy". I know many guys who take ridiculous amounts of pride in their appearance, shop lots, then go out every Saturday night dressed to impress and get drunk and sleep in til whenever on Sunday. I also know loads of women that love nothing more than getting out into the deep, dark countryside and getting muddy. It's just that with mountain biking there is the technical know how of keeping a bike in working order too.
It would be nice if more female mtb'ers were out there like this.
What do you mean by that? That they should be White, with mousey brown hair, a purple top and grey trousers? Or that they should have a mint green bike? What?
I think he means "aesthetically pleasing" elfin... 😉
What do you mean by that? That they should be White, with mousey brown hair, a purple top and grey trousers? Or that they should have a mint green bike? What?
I was just referring to Darcey Turrene as a whole in general :D. I think she's every male mountain bikers dream, well mine anyway. She's a bit of a badass, she gets muddy and has a few crashes, and she's wicked on a bike too.
It is not as simple as "girls like shopping, blokes like getting muddy". I know many guys who take ridiculous amounts of pride in their appearance, shop lots, then go out every Saturday night dressed to impress and get drunk and sleep in til whenever on Sunday.
Good exmaple. Look at Geordie Shore 😯
I don't think Darcy is an especially great beauty but she is glamorous and cool [u]because[/u] she rides bikes. IMO.
So you're implying that female MTBers ought to match up to the standards you've set?
Why?
Who was that directed at Fred?
Michaelmcc.
...and to labour a previous point, none, that's 'not one' of the women I have been biking with have children, which strikes me as a significant issue.
Mountain biking as we know it today is the sport of choice for relatively well off, call 'em middle class if you want, people who can afford fancy bikes, afford to travel around the country and so on. This in turn dictates the targets that advertisers aim for, which tends to lead to the same folk buying the stuff.
It's golf, over a slightly wider area, with even more ridiculous outfits.
So you're implying that female MTBers ought to match up to the standards you've set?
Why?
No i said it would be nice if more were like that. I don't see it happening any time soon though. Everyone has to start somewhere, more women taking it up would be a good start.
No I said it would be nice if more were like that.
Erm so you [i]do[/i] think they ought to match up to the standards you think are ideal then?
Why?
Wunundred. I'm 'aving that wun.
Another mark on your bed post 😉
.
OK, reading this thread I'm feeling like I SHOULD be alienated but I'm sorry I don't!
No, I don't like fettling with my bike (that's hubby's job), but then I wouldn't like fettling with my car either!
No, I can't ride as fast as the fellas or ride as aggressively as them but that would be true in most sports so why should that make me feel bad?
I ride with a varied bunch of people, one was in the winning team at Mayhem, another was in Spain at the weekend representing Britain in a triathlon, others have solo'd at Mayhem, and that's JUST the women.
If I was going to feel alienated you would think that lot could do it to a 'usually bringing up the rear' 40 year old woman, but they don't because they are fantastic people who are good friends, most of whom we've met through mountain biking!!
If any woman feels alienated perhaps she need to have a good look at her riding buddies 😉
Deb
Erm so you do think they ought to match up to the standards you think are ideal then?Why?
I think you're just nit-picking now lol. Can you not just take the post for what it is.
Other examples..
It would be nice if i had a house in Spain
It would be nice if i had a really fast car.
It would be nice if i could ride like Sam Hill.
Can you not just take the post for what it is.
No.
Chiefly because I know not what it is, that it is. Or isn't. As the case may be.
can what STWers do be classed as 'sport'? I'd call it more like a leisure activity really
This does get to me - its almost allways referred to as a sport on here and IMO a sport needs two things - exertion and competition judged objectively. Otherwise its a pastime - and the macho image of extreme sport when its actually pony trekking by bike for most of us I guess does put women off.
In my nearly 40 years amongst the great unwashed of the country, I've drawn the conclusion that most ladies really can't be arsed with physical effort unless they have to. Most ladies don't like to be sweaty, muddy, smelly, bruised, cold and wet either, so MTb'ing is pretty much at the bottom of the [i]'desirable things for ladies to do'[/i] with [i]'watching soaps with ben & Gerry's'[/i] being rather nearer the top.
Men are much more inclined to tolerate being smelly, muddy, wet, cold, etc, because a far greater proportion of blokes get more reward from physical activity than said ladies.
There are of course, substantial minorities of both sides that don't conform to this kind of gender stereotyping
[i]its actually pony trekking by bike for most of us[/i]
I laughed out loud at that, good call TJ.
It's too late for the voice of reason Colin: Fred and TJ are now engaged in this thread. Abandon ship.
Reason?
How very dare you!
It's golf, over a slightly wider area, with even more ridiculous outfits.
Yes, it's almost exactly like golf. Except for the lack of hitting a little ball into holes. And all the cycling. Other than that, practically identical.
You'll do metaphors next term.
Interesting topic this, although I really don't think 'alienate' is a word that applies.
I'm a woman, I started riding mountain bikes pretty recently and love the tinkering and maintaining aspect (but then I am actually an engineer too). I can't say what really drew me to get into biking, other than it's something I always thought I should have a go at. So through the encouragement of a few of my friends I gave it a go, bought a bike and have been hooked ever since!
Admittedly I don't really fit the general demographic - my other hobbies include rock and ice climbing, aerobatic flying and mountain rescue...
You'll do metaphors next term.
You think mountain biking is a [i]metaphor[/i] for golf? Really?
I have noticed in the last two years that I seem to have to "justify" going out biking. It's kind of bizarre how somehow I'm not expected to do things quite like that. Of course, it doesn't stop me.
I will admit, though, it is a pain getting scratches and bruises. It's hard enough looking okay when we have meetings with external visitors but if I'm covered in bruises and scabs on my legs, I don't think it is appreciated!!
Rachel
I'm not alienated.
I like riding with lots of 'boys' 😀
Other women are strange
Some really twisted stuff on this thread, esp the guy that thinks more women should get into mountainbiking but only if they are young and fit and he can leer at them... I think that's called a self defeating prophecy...
I think the Elfin One is closest to the mark.
The climbing analogy is poor: Climbing walls are much more like going to the gym; it's not a risk sport and you can have a shower afterwards.
How many women lead mid to hard extreme Trad routes ground up? In Scotland almost none (with the honourable exception of Tess Fryer).
Bottom line is that women are less drawn to risk sports than men...I don't think mud is a major deterent!
hels - there should be a 'like' button on this website - you're absolutely right!!
Rachel
[i]You think mountain biking is a metaphor for golf? Really?[/i]
Yes. Don't worry if you don't.
On a typical ride through the Peaks, I reckon about 25-30% of the riders are female. Maybe some males are not riding in the right places or they seem to be scaring females off somehow!
Now motocross - there's a sport that needs a ****ing makeover! Pick up a mountain bike mag and then pick up a MX mage, apart from the engines, what else do you notice as being different?
I know a few female mountainbikers. I don't know any that do a different competitive sport.
I assume there is a lot less women do competitive sports than men in general. I'd guess that a there are a lot higher % of women in mountainbiking than in most sports (obviously netball may be an exception).
Now motocross - there's a sport that needs a ****ing makeover! Pick up a mountain bike mag and then pick up a MX mage, apart from the engines, what else do you notice as being different?
They all wear neck braces?
The pages are stuck together ??
Deveron53
Now motocross - there's a sport that needs a ****ing makeover!
Really, why do you say that? Is it because it's hugely popular worldwide now?
the macho image of extreme sport when its actually pony trekking by bike for most of us
Love it!
The mags may have something to do with it but I still think one of the barriers to biking is because you still get a fair chunk of active discrimiation and mild to major abuse from some other recreational groups. How motivating must an animated rambling incedent be if your just having a bit of a pootle round.
I'm not so sure it's a case of "alienating Women" so much as MTBing being the sort of sport that (at present) primarily attracts White middle-class males between the ages of 13 and 40...
All sports have their key demographics, people have mentioned a few contributing factors, traditional gender roles, the sports history, stereotypes, marketing and the wider perception of the sport, etc all of which are valid points...
But I guess the real question is not "why are there so few female MTBers?" but more why does MTBing not appeal to a broader cross section of society?
MTBing is not a particularly diverse sport, assuming you see it as a "sport" and not just a "Leisure activity" a subtle difference but probably quite distinct in most non-MTBers minds, where most STWers would not consider trundling round centre-parcs on a rented hybrid Mountain biking to the uninitiated that's probably about what they expect from it, my Missus certainly thinks that's about all it is and she's even been to watch a couple of DH races...
Moreover does MTBing need to broaden its appeal? (some will tell you it is already a steadily growing sport/outdoor activity) there can't be that many people who are totally unaware of it, perhaps not the many and varied sub-niches but 99% of people these days will know what a mountain bike is and basically what it's for by now, if the concept appeals they tend to get into it, if not... Well you were never going to "convert" them were you? so why worry?
Also I suppose asking on here is of course like asking a group of "believers" what wrong with all the atheists in the world?
This lot can only offer educated guesses and anecdotes but The people to ask (and expect various organizations already do so quite regularly) are those that are not into it...
Maybe time for some facts rather than anecdotal evidence? 🙂
Both road cycling and mountain biking have the greatest gender difference of all active outdoor pursuits, with a ratio of approximate 2:1 (male to female) in relation to occasional participation. The gender difference extends to 3:1 (m:f) for regular road cycling and an even greater 4:1 for regular mtb'ing.
This is a much greater difference between male and female participants than other outdoor pursuits. There are equal numbers of men and women taking part in Snowsports (eg skiing etc), outdoor swimming, and hiking, and a mucher lesser difference in gender participation levels in running, climbing, and kayaking / sailing. The only active outdoor pursuit when the number of women exceeds men is horseriding.
The data and research that I specialise in indicates that getting dirty, not wanting to exercise etc are not the main reasons why women don't participate more in cycling (although overall lower participation rates in all active pursuits are linked to lower levels of autonomous leisure time). One of the most intersting findings that I am currently researching is that latent demand for road cycling is greater for women, which bucking the standard user demographic profile and is very unusual.
Certainly, qualitative research is indicating that there is an 'image issue' associated with women's response to participating in mtb'ing. The role of current mtb'ers and the media / biking industry undoubtably has a role in that image.
Nice one SueW, it's funny, because mountain biking has become one of the most middle class sports I know; it started off with the guys who rode road bikes, who were very much working class, and has evolved to the point where I was offered some lip balm at the start of a recent ride.
The middle-classisation of mountain biking is interesting; it is far more exclusive in the sense of excluding those who don't have the income, and the disposable income to participate, than in terms of obvious gender problems.
That's why it most closely resembles golf in terms of the class of it's participants, their income, the concentration on equipment and clothing, the need to be able to travel to do it, and the white male core group of players.
Some really twisted stuff on this thread, esp the guy that thinks more women should get into mountainbiking but only if they are young and fit and he can leer at them... I think that's called a self defeating prophecy..
I presume thats aimed at me and it sounds like total BS to be honest. Can you not take it in a light hearted way? Darcey is most male mountain bikers dream. Don't take offence that I'm looking at her a similar way to women checking out footballers, or men at the gym (or the opposite sex in whatever sport they do and like).
I'd love any type of women to get into biking no matter what they're age and shape is. Surely a good figure comes with it over time anyway 😉
If any woman feels alienated perhaps she need to have a good look at her riding buddies
I get alienated when my riding buddies are far technically superior to me... and that's just the 10 year old girls. Q_Q
Actually having re-read the OPs initial question:
[i]"Why does mtbing alienate women & to what extent does this hold back the sport?"[/i]
Is a pretty loaded one, and quite clearly worded with a conclusion already in mind wasn't it?
It starts with the premise that MTBing "alienates" women, there are plenty of activities in the world that do not attract female participation, I doubt would accuse many of them of actively "alienating" women though…
It then moves on to effectively insinuate that lack of female participation is bad for the sport, by merely asking to what extent MTBing is "Held back" by this rather asking if it is the case at all (it may well not be)...
It's stuffed full of assumptions and bias the OP is clearly trying to construct “Socially desirable” responses, basically the start point for this debate is heavily skewed and designed to put the (mostly male) members of this forum on the defensive…
A more subtle Troll than STW is used to, but a Troll none the less… well done
B+
Interesting Crikey.
Motocross (my background) is identical to mountainbiking in every way, except income (although it is also largely a white male pastime). You're just as likely to get some lads in £100 transit as someone in a £100k motorhome at an event. Oddly the kit is just as expensive as MTB. Very oddly... you'd have thought it would cost more.
The middle-classisation of mountain biking is interesting; it is far more exclusive in the sense of excluding those who don't have the income, and the disposable income to participate, than in terms of obvious gender problems.That's why it most closely resembles golf in terms of the class of it's participants, their income, the concentration on equipment and clothing, the need to be able to travel to do it, and the white male core group of players.
Rubbish. All you need is a bike, everything else is peripheral.
Something I noticed about female mtbers was that most of them had ridden horses.
Thus being out in the countryside getting wet, cold and muddy, it's a natural progression. Being thrown off, cleaning tack, grooming all very similar.
I personally find that my non biking friends just don't like cycling and would never dream of going out in the middle of winter, at night, and come back looking like they've been dragged through a hedge backwards (literally in many cases).
This sport/pastime/hobby is too expensive for many women (me included, my bike is 8 years old now), many women feel pressurised trying to keep up in a group.
Also there is the time issue. We're so busy trying to work, cook, clean, be Nigella Goddess's, that's there's not much time left over at the end of the day.
Mud, yep that really is off putting, especially with the odd bit of animal poo thrown in for good measure.
[i]Rubbish. All you need is a bike, everything else is peripheral.[/i]
Ask your teacher to explain 'oversimplification'.
I had analysed the data, and neither income nor social class are statistically signficant variables that effect differences in participation in mtb'ing and road cycling. The strongest determinants of differences in participation are gender a d age, ethnicity and disability have a lesser effect but stronger than education which has a negligable impact.
[i] [/i]neither income nor social class are statistically signficant variables[i]
I'm intrigued by that; how old is the data?
God, I sound like such a boring nerd!
Sorry 🙂
the OPs initial question: "Why does mtbing alienate women & to what extent does this hold back the sport?" is a pretty loaded one
It is indeed a loaded question - loaded with the very obvious. Of [i]course[/i] the sport (it's a sport) doesn't appeal to as many women as men. Far more interesting I thought to consider the implications of this.
DH is still very much predominantly working class yet it's the most expensive discipline. How does that fit in?
SueW, not at all. My perceptions of how the sport/pastime has changed over 20 odd years are as valid or not as the next persons, and it is interesting to see research related to it.
Example; over the last 20 years, I've carried on riding, but I can run through 10 or so really talented women who have stopped.. got fed up? got bored? got better things to do?
Sue_W - MemberGod, I sound like such a [s]boring[/s] nerd!
Sorry
Actually quite interesting
[i]DH is still very much predominantly working class[/i]
My experience of DH would disagree, the guys I know who did it or still do are a bit better off than that.
Crikey - the data is the most up to date available from 2009, currently running the next round of 12 months survey work which will give me the next complete dataset for analysis by mid 2012
yeah what helmet will kill you says.
I like nerdy. Elfin makes some very good point too. Look at the face thread. You'll probably get (IIRC) less than 5 people from a non white background.
I live in an area where plenty of people come from 2nd or 3rd generation of north african immigrant, and guess what non of them rides.
I have yet to come across a black guys on the trails. The SO rode a very popular event in march aimed at beginner and leisury mtbers and she can't remember having seen a black or an asian rider.
Food for thought.
mtbing alienate's women
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try tellng that to my missus 🙄
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IMO its boyfriends, husbands and male friends that do the alienating by being cocks and not being supportive and positive ... etc etc
I'm thoroughly confused - almost exactly half the people I've ridden with are women. Almost all have kids, but admittedly that has interfered with their riding (as it has to a lesser extent their husbands).
Perhaps you are alienating women rather than the "sport" alienating them. We all ride for pleasure not competition, and are more at the XC/trail end of the spectrum than the downhill side. Most riding in the real outdoors but some a trail centres.
Oh, and in general women that MTB are better looking than the average population (possibly because they are fitter).
Brilliant photos goog!
And a very true comment too.
yes goog - it was amazing going on a Morzine trip for the first time with only women - the interaction within the group was completely different (more supportive, encouraging etc) to a guys only group, where there is more ribbing etc. Made a big difference.
oh - and fab photos!
Rachel
As has been said before, Mountain Biking these days, on the whole, is a bunch of middle aged, middle class white men with fairly disposable incomes. It has, as crikey says, become the new Golf (which is quite a working mans sport these days ironically!).
And since when was Golf sexy, or interesting to women in general?
Joking aside, people who run don't bore everyone else in pubs about stories of running. People who walk hills and mountains don't bore everyone else in pubs with stories of mountains they've climbed. People who ride horses don't bore other people in pubs with stories of how high that last fence was that they cleared etc.
People who ride mountain bikes (not all of us, but quite a lot, and they're ALWAYS middle aged, middle class white men) DO bore everyone else in pubs with their stories of trails they've ridden, how extreme it was, how much air they got etc... And this is NOT cool... FFS, I saw people supporting at Mayhem (no names mentioned, but I bet a few people on here know who I'm referring to!) wearing cycling related gear to stand on the side of the track, cheer people on, and take photos. Hell, I don't particularly like the look of Lycra when I'm on the bike (but it serves a purpose), I'm sure as hell not wearing it off the bike!
Mountain Biking is seen as a geeky sport by most people, women included. And this is why lots of people (women included) don't do it. Strangely enough I know a lot of guys (and a couple of girls) who used to laugh at me for doing it cos they thought it was geeky, who have tried it recently, and have taken it up cos they love it!
But until we're generally accepted as not being geeky, bike obsessed nerds (whether we are or not), it's hard to be accepted socially. Fishing, now there's a ****ing sport I don't understand and find it highly amusing to ridicule, yet it's the most popular sport in the country! Go figure...
EDIT: Goog, do you ride in the FOD a bit? Swear last time I was there, saw a couple looking remarkably like you and your Mrs, her with a Giant DH bike, loading up a Van...
I find that my wife is irritatingly good on a bike- especially as she has only really got into it through me, and doesn't ride with me as much as i'd like. However, she does see it as some fun, with some enjoyable trail to ride, nice views and a pub/cafe at the end.
However, give her a hockey stick and she's terrifingly competitive and as physical as the rules will allow... Could it be said that many (sporty) women really enjoy something with a bit more team interaction? She also really loves the dynamic and tactic of the game too.
....And she plays golf too... 🙄
Maybe time for some facts rather than anecdotal evidence?
Old up lads; some bird's turned up with some fancy waffle. Best just to humour her and nod yer head and say 'yes dear' now and then, then with a bit of luck she'll get bored and leave us alone and go back to her knitting or getting her husband's tea on or something a woman's sposed to do.... 😉 😀
This has become a fascinating discussion. Some really interesting points, from all over. It's opened my mind a bit more, I have to say.
On the 'image' side of things; in my experience, women do tend to consider this issue more than most blokes. I ended up dealing with a lot of women with bikes and clothing, simply cos I worked with immature blokes I think really, but I must say aesthetics did play a more significant part than some might think or be prepared to admit. I don't think that's a negative issue at all tbh; a lot of cycling clothing is gopping TBH. And until more recently, there weren't enough women involved in the design of bikes and clothing that suited women. The feedback I got from women regarding women's specific bike design etc revealed that women do have particular needs when it comes to equipment that are distinct from what men want. Companies like Trek and Specialized etc have done a pretty good job in this regard, although there is a lot of marketing waffle wrapped up in this too. But I notice that MTB marketing stuff aimed at women tends to take a different tack to that aimed at men. The 'image' of MTBing has bin tweaked to appeal to more women, over the years. Ladies I know whattuv MTBed for years have said that stuff now is better for them than it used to be.
I would like to hear more about the Nature V Nurture debate regarding MTBing actually. I was pulled up off-forum about some of my earlier remarks, and don't wish to be misunderstood; I think there are definitely 'natural' reasons for the differences in the approach to MTBing from men and women. And I do think MTBing is very much an androcentric activity, so there will be certain barriers and obstacles for women, however well-intentioned people are.
The comparison to climbing is interesting; climbing seems to be a more social activity, and the relationship between climbers seems to be more personal. I spose it's an activity which involves a greater degree of co-operation between participants. I certainly know of climbers male and female who use it partly at least as a way of meeting others speshly the opposite sex. Which I think is a positive side-effect tbh.
MTBing is infinitely better than Golf though. Come on.
They all wear neck braces?
Nope, I seem to see loads of neck braces in this month's Dirt magazine.
Iam referring to the semi-naked women used as objects throughout the editorial and advertising in most MX mags. While this isn't the [i]cause[/i], it's certainly a signpost to something in MX that (to me) seems a bit 'off'.
Mountain biking seems to me to be very equal.
A couple of months back I was sitting down on the bend of Jacob's Ladder and was impressed to see an all-female party of 4 ripping down in great style. The next large group of riders was 50/50 balanced and the girls were riding with equal ability.
< uber-spod mode on > actually fishing isn't the most popular outdoor activity, walking is. And both mtb'ing and road cycling are more than twice as popular as fishing < uber-spod mode off ... well not really - I rarely get a justifiable opportunity to bore people with stat's and facts outside of my social scientist circles >
'nature' v 'nurture' - mmm ... biological determinism is always tricky ground. Instread I'll duck behind the protection of research which has found that (a) women have less available leisure time than men and spend a greater proportion of their 'non-work' time doing domestic chores; (b) women have a higher level of participation in activities that have family or 'social' associations; (c) that women are more 'other' orientated than men when it comes to expressing their recreational preferences - ie they are more likely to shape their activities to what others want to do than what they want to do themselves.
(have realised that personally I don't fit with (a), (b), or (c), thus being known in research terms as an outlier or anomoly ...)
I am curious as to how mountain biking would have developed if it had been a predominantly female activity - would if have become more orientated towards endurance, or low risk technique, than gnarly tech?
Sue - my guess would be more "wandering around the scenery" and less "thrashing around in the woods" ie more going somewhere and for the views and the experience less for the thrill of riding.
Both road cycling and mountain biking have the greatest gender difference of all active outdoor pursuits, with a ratio of approximate 2:1 (male to female) in relation to occasional participation.
really, I imagine surfing/ kite surfing have a greater inbalance
a woman in the line up at Whitby/Scarborough/Caton in winter would always be the exception
TJ - based on a sample size of 1 (me!) then your assessment is correct 🙂
oh and Poly re: 'in general women that mtb are better looking than the average population' - I'm afraid from my experience that might be a minority view - I've been told I'm not feminine cos I don't wear enough make up and another 'friend' insisted I wore stockings at her wedding cos I was bound to have bruises or cuts on my legs and that 'wouldn't look good'!
actually fishing isn't the most popular outdoor activity, walking is. And both mtb'ing and road cycling are more than twice as popular as fishing
V surprised by that, had always been told that fishing was, and I know a huge number of fish-ists too.
And can I be the first (and probably only person) to say that Sue_W I am massively envious of your job, sounds very interesting! But then I am a statistics geek through and through, only I never get to play with anything as interesting as something that might be relevant to any of my own interests!