Increase the Q-Factor a further 25mm from the XTR cranks and I'm almost certain you'll notice a difference for the worse
Sure, and I'd expect it. I was meaning more that I had wiggle room between there and my road cranks plus cleat adjustment to make the Limits not completely barking mad for the road bike.
But how thick is the LIMITS? 15mm each I think. That put your super narrow 145mm road crank and the Q-factor ends up wider than a MTB crank, more towards a fat bike Q-Factor. Do-able but Shimano road are 155mm starting Q-Factor so it limits the cranks you'd want to be using these with
Don't some pedal manufacturers do different axle lengths?
Dura-Ace 9000 come in a +4mm model
2nd XTR stages gone back due to battery issues & erratic power readings. Not sure if its an XTR problem as both other stages cranks (ultegra's) have been no problem ?
[url= http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/04/limits-power-meter.html ]Dcrainmaker comments on Limits[/url]. Pretty much my thoughts too! The flexible funding thing is a bit worrying, they get the money even if they don't reach their targets.
Interesting! Not so much about Limits but rather what we'll be seeing in 6-12-18 months time from the players already in the market, with that I think I'll delay my MTB power meter wants for the Summer...
Prices are always going to be coming down, and new players are always going to be coming into the market. There's always a good argument for waiting another 6 months, but then you miss out on the benefits of having a PM for 6 months.
Think the main take away from that article is that power meters are hard to get to market. Remember the release of the Vector being almost there for about two years! I'd say it's not even worth considering unless there's a pre-production model in the hands of independent testers / reviewers.
2nd XTR stages gone back due to battery issues & erratic power readings. Not sure if its an XTR problem as both other stages cranks (ultegra's) have been no problem ?
Wouldn't like to use Stages on MTB. The battery lid on mine breaks a tab every time I open it - a flying rock would probably finish it off altogether!
I'll say again, I've been very happy with Stages on the MTB. No issues.
prices are deffo on the down and I'm almost at the point of getting something. I dont really want to wait another year, I want to see the numbers for this year.
it also seems to me that there isnt much a second hand market for powermeters (its not something like wheels), I suspect because the percentage of riders with then is relatively small and the products are still pretty new. Also with the amount of issue people seem to have they are going to buy new for the warranty.
I suspect because the percentage of riders with then is relatively small and the products are still pretty new
I think this is the case. Also that if someone bought even something on the cheaper end like Stages a year ago then you can buy them new from the EU for half what they probably paid in the first place. Similarly, SRM and P2M do come up for sale but people seem to want unreasonably high prices for these so it makes more sense to buy new! Another thing about the decreasing prices is that having paid just over £400 for my Stages for example, if I ever did decide to swap then I'd rather keep it as a 2nd PM, than sell for £200.
just over 400 quid for a stages?
do tell sir, do tell!
From 2 pages back 😀
Powermeter24, Stages SRAM X9, £420 to be exact when they had an extra 10 or 20% off across all PM's. They are £489 at the moment but it is worth keeping an eye the EUR exchange rate. The DS crank is cheap to pick up on ebay as people often swap them out for fancier cranks on new bikes. Think I paid less that £50 so it was around £470 all in.
Prices are always going to be coming down, and new players are always going to be coming into the market. There's always a good argument for waiting another 6 months, but then you miss out on the benefits of having a PM for 6 months.
Ya, it's a good point and one I've made before, thing is though I've only got 2 more MTB races that I plan on doing this year and they're in the next 3 weeks before I'll try and do some road racing instead of just thinking about it...XC bike is likely to get left for 6 months!
This Limits thing won't work with any of the new pedals that use an allen key in the back rather than a pedal spanner. To my knowledge that is all newer shimano models but may be more, I only use shimano pedals.
Never had battery cover issues with XTR stages tabs are always ok dunno what it is TBH ?
Yes saw that, I really meant pro peloton spy shots.
Any chance that Shimano just acquire someone like Pioneer and build on an existing platform?
The only reason this crossed my mind is that there are some similarities I guess in design to what little we've seen of the Shimano PM, the big Shimano sponsored teams like G-A seem to be on Pioneer and the analysis used on the Pioneer computers is almost identical to the GUI and graphics of the new Shimano static bike fitting software???
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Edit: Just seen references to Pioneer in the earlier linked article... but nevertheless, the similarities suggest acquisition and modification perhaps????
This Limits thing won't work with any of the new pedals that use an allen key in the back rather than a pedal spanner. To my knowledge that is all newer shimano models but may be more, I only use shimano pedals.
On their website they have a pic installing a Dura Ace 9000 pedal. So im guessing the hole on the other side is big enough to fit a hex key.
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2x(+15mm minimum) Q-Factor on either side and a plan to bring it to market in just 7 months all via crowd funding.... what could go wrong? The guy only had the idea last year and it'll be for sale at the start of next year! The hex key fitting of pedals is the least of their worries!
Firmware and app upgrades released today for Stages. Battery issues are one of the things it targets (though reads like a subtle attack on affected users). Will try it tomorrow, though my current problem is more physical. Having fitted an upgraded battery cover and seal, the PM appears to cut out after hitting rough tarmac. As if the cover isn't pressing hard enough on the battery. Wrapping some electrical tape tightly around it seems to stop it cutting out, but looks like time to send it back.
This latter improvement addresses battery performance issues documented in the field.“While we cannot personally verify the quality of a rider installed replacement battery, this latest firmware revision directly addresses the issue of random premature battery failure or draining that a small percentage of our customers have experienced and are vocal about,” said Pat Warner, Stages Cycling’s senior vice president. “With this new firmware we’re also gaining 10-percent more battery life in the unaffected meters, so it’s a big win for us all around.”
Update came too late for me. I has 3 Stages between October and March and decided to try something else. Went for the Quarq Riken R and it's been fine so far. Still using the battery supplied with the crankset after 3 weeks which compared to the Stages is a revelation.
Vector's been on the same battery since November. Gets used a few times each week. Not given me any issues. Been pretty impressed with it.
P2M still on it's original battery from early last year, though that doesn't get used much. Have had the occasional drop out when using it, but then the HR goes too, the Garmin seems to lose all ANT+ comms for about a minute, then it all comes back. Only seems to happen when using the P2M which is a bit odd.
The old PowerTap on the turbo bike just keeps on going. Gets used a lot. Maybe a battery change once a year. The bearings are knackered but I'm a bit reluctant to mess with it.
The firmware news is particularly timely as my XTR stages is in it's box about to be sent back. Will try it once more.
Every time the battery dies I leave the crank to air in a warm place for 24hrs then reassemble with care (all tabs present, grease on gasket etc). Last time the battery lasted 3 days 🙁 allways seems to cut out mid way through an XC training session when I particularly want power readings!
2x(+15mm minimum) Q-Factor on either side and a plan to bring it to market in just 7 months all via crowd funding.... what could go wrong?
Interesting to see the level of funding they've managed though! 26 days still to run and $172k against a target of $100k.
Well I guess it shows the market is definitely there for cheap PMs if people are willing to risk a punt on this!
That's rather mad isn't it! I'm amazed they've managed that much, it'll certainly be interesting to watch. Shall we have a sweepstake for how many months it runs over?
15! 😛
I wonder if we could/should get the thread title changed...
Have to wonder if the extra cash may well help them with the timescales. If I've understood correctly they do have a product insofar as they make a power meter for a static bike - it's just (and I don't use that lightly!) about converting that to a smaller form.
Just seems that bringing a reliable PM to market takes a long time. Garmin brought a pretty much finished product in the Vector and still took years to bring it to market, suspect with a much bigger budget that Limits too! And Stages still don't seem to have a reliable product a few years after release.
Got replacement XTR back other day updated firmware not ridden it yet though. Gonna update other cranks see if I get any improvement but never had problem with them just the XTR.
There was an update on DC Rainmaker,
An Update After a Meeting:
Hi All-I just wanted to provide an update after I spent some time on the phone on Thursday with the LIMITS team, discussing their plans and where they stand. While it was a very constructive conversation, there wasn’t anything that was said that changed my mind on the timeline aspect. In fact, I’d say it actually went the other way. For example, I was looking for some element of proof that the company had prototypes with riders on the units and transmitting power wirelessly. That’d be about where they need to be in order to make any end of year dates.
Unfortunately, they are far from that. At this point they have no prototype that can transmit wirelessly, nor have any teams or individual riders taken LIMITS for a ride (because it doesn’t exist yet). Their current unit transmits the torque (but not yet cadence). This is done via wired transmission though, and not yet via ANT+ (no ANT+ chipset has been selected). Most importantly though, they have not compared that figure to any existing power meter on the market – at this point.
I discussed my concerns with them regarding their timelines. They were extremely hesitant to give any additional details on when a ‘beta’ unit would be available to either their team or other individuals could put it on a bike and start gathering data (be it the company themselves or a 3rd party). After much discussion around the topic they stated likely by the end of June such a unit might be available.
I had hopes that they’d be further along, such as actually having a working prototype as was implied in their crowd funding video. Unfortunately, everything shown in the video was merely mockup.
Once they do get to production, they’re planning for most of the metal/machined parts to be done in Asia, with the PCB (electronics) also done in Asia. However, assembly may take place closer to home (Scotland), but that’s still to be finalized. Right now they’re looking at using SR44 coin cell batteries (the same as the Verve Infocrank power meter uses). The LIMITS power meter will also contain temperature sensors for temperature compensation.
As for funding, like most entities that launch on crowd funded sites these days they have the funding they already need – some from private equity investors and a fair chunk from the Scottish government via incubator funding. Also like most other entities they saw Indiegogo as primarily a marketing engine to draw attention (which obviously worked quite well). I asked why Indiegogo over Kickstarter and they answered that had they done it all over again they’d probably have selected Kickstarter, mainly due to the wider appeal/popularity of Kickstarter over Indiegogo (and that they would have likely seen more attention).
We noted that we’d catch up again once they had some form of prototype unit that perhaps was demonstrable. Until that point, it’s largely in the realm of theory.
Ohhh. That's not great. Verging on misleading.
Didn't realise they were Scottish, had assumed 'mercan.
The total level of crowd funding sounds good until you realise they "have to" honour the investors with a fully functional power meter for that fairly small amount of money!
All crowd funding is bordering on a scam as it is. I guess people think they paid x amount for a PM when the reality is that the company have no obligation to provide anything. The DC article is particularly interesting because it sounds like this was always a marketing gimmick from the start, purley to generate interest.
I can't see anyone getting an Asian manufacturer sorted from scratch in a year let alone start to actually design the thing and get a polished end product within their timescales.
I'll go for 24 months over-run and that is being optomistic! 😀
Certainly seems plausible. One does wonder if they've intentionally set a daft timescale to drum up extra interest. I can't imagine as many people would pledge if they were told "delivery is March 2018" (which is my guess incidentally!).
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/05/powertap-pedals-chainringjoule.html
Another update, this time non-vapourware!
Update on the [url= http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/05/05/watteam-powerbeat-powermeters-get-more-aero-and-a-cleaner-install-still-just-499/#more-101279 ]Watteam Powerbeat[/url] too. Looks pretty good.
I'd totally forgotten about those! So many new products!
Yes, even if 499 dollars ends up being 499 pounds, it'll still be pretty bloody good for a dual sided job. No idea if they have any UK distribution in mind though.
Slightly OT but what reading Should I get my Garmin to display?
Instantaneous power seems to fluctuate too much to be able to ride in a particular Zone. Even 3 second power fluctuates too much.
So should I use a 30 second average display or is that too much of an average?
Depends.
On road, if I'm riding to power, 3 second tends to work best for me, though need to keep the lag in mind when riding.
30 second ok I guess if you want to keep an eye on trends but pretty useless IMO. Why would you want to know what your average power was over the last 30 seconds?
Instantaneous power seems to fluctuate too much to be able to ride in a particular Zone. Even 3 second power fluctuates too much.
What do you expect from a PM? Power will naturally fluctuate a bit and the idea you can ride to a given "number" is a myth that Chris Froome hasn't done any favours to dispel by staring at his stem all the time 😆
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On road, if I'm riding to power, 3 second tends to work best for me, though need to keep the lag in mind when riding.30 second ok I guess if you want to keep an eye on trends but pretty useless IMO. Why would you want to know what your average power was over the last 30 seconds?
Exactly. 3s average Power for me too. If it is good enough for Gee then it is good enough for me! 1s is a little too unstable outdoors but anything longer than 3s and you are living too far in the past to actually use the reading for anything useful. A PM just records the power you put in so if you want it to be more stable then there's only one solution 😀
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Agree, 3s for me too. I wonder if longer has a place on a drag strip TT course, for pacing. About it.
[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7693/17202532388_82ac44baaf_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7693/17202532388_82ac44baaf_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/sd8ty1 ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/129593813@N03/ ]monkeyfudger[/url], on Flickr
General riding around/mincer intervals/hill reps/STRAVA!!
30 seconds keeps you honest and stops you slacking off or stops you being to much of a hero when you're half wheeling...
[url= https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8695/17202763060_f52fb07bbf_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8695/17202763060_f52fb07bbf_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/sd9E87 ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/129593813@N03/ ]monkeyfudger[/url], on Flickr
The more serious horrible style proper intervals where I wanna know what I've done/failed to do a the end of it but don't want to wait 'till the end of the ride!
Flick between both but mainly on the top one 99% of the time.
And as said above, it's really important to remember that what you're seeing is old news, don't chase power numbers, settle in to your "pace" then look.
