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and there's a cycle lane and you're cycling down it. The driver pulls out of the side road and stops right in front of you and you miss him by mm's. He clearly hadn't seen me
Who's got right of way who's in the wrong?
I can't see the lights of the driver that's done the flashing to even know he's done so. I had a 1000 lumen light on so I'm pretty hard to miss. I got a load of abuse from the guy I almost hit and from the guy that flashed him out. Traffic was pretty stationary at the time I was perhaps doing 10mph
Who's got right of way who's in the wrong?
I suspect the drivers, but it probably depends on things like if there are dropped curbs, if the lane is part of the road or not etc etc
Always worth being careful when filtering past traffic like that because this sort of thing happens too often. Glad your ok.
[i]who's in the wrong?[/i]
The guy pulling out. Even if he's been 'flashed' to be let out, it's still his responsibility to ensure that it's safe to do so.
People flashing others out are being nice, but they are changing the rules of the road arbitrarily, and without everyone else knowing.
The guy who flashed the other one out was in the wrong in my view.
Where in the Highway Code is there the bit about flashing lights to cede right of way to another road user?
people who flash others out are often trying to be helpful, but are actually a pain in the arse for all concerned. The flashed driver ought to ignore the flashes (not least because he and probably no-one else other than the flasher knows for sure what they are supposed to mean )
Afaik The driver who'd flashed the other one out is in the wrong as you may only flash your lights to make another road user aware of your presence (like sounding your horn or bell). The driver emerging from the side road is in the wrong as they didn't give way to a road user who had right of way (you) and responded to an incorrect signal from the other driver?
IANAL- I understand legal responsibility remains with the driver that pulled out- the flashing driver's unhelpfully helped create the situation, and is certainly in the wrong and at least partly responsible, but the pulling-out driver's made the decision to move- they turn the potential into a problem entirely themselves.
Had exactly the same thing happen to me on the motorbike once, only difference is motorbikes can sometimes make massive dents in car doors without sustaining any damage at all themselves...
Guy pulling out, his fault. Flashing people out can be annoying, I recently got knocked off by a right turning driver who was flashed through stationary traffic. Flasher may get a verbal telling off but still the guy pulling out who is supposed to look where he is going.
What really pisses me off is in moving traffic when a car starts to overtake you then brakes and flashes someone out "yeah cheers mate just leave me out in the open here, all set up for some pain" WTF do they think is going to happen in that situation, it's like they're intentionally putting you in danger.
regardless of who is in the wrong always filter with caution.
Saying that I was nearly taken out by some bint pulling across taffic, nose to tail in the opposite directon and I was the only thing in my direction. despite decorated with 500 quids of exposures finest she still didnt see me!!!
The preson who flashed the other driver is in the wrong..he might not have thought it, but he wasn' actually helping. Situations like this one happen too often in my opinion.
The guy pulling out is in the wrong - even if he's been flashed through, it's still his responsibility to ensure that the whole road is clear and it's safe to proceed.
It can be really dangerous - I've been taken out by a driver pulling through traffic cos he was flashed out and just went without looking.
Driver pulling out is wrong. Driver flashing is also wrong. I know this from the prosecution of the guy who hospitalised me in exactly those circumstances nearly 9 years ago, except he pulled out so late I couldn't stop, hit the wing and went over the bonnet.
I've never forgotten what my instructor said when I was learning to drive in (ahem) 1977. Flashing headlights means 'I am here', nothing else. So the fault is entirely with the guy pulling out, who should make no assumptions about safety just because someone else has flashed their lights.
Although as TG helpfully pointed out last week, righteousness does not make you safe.
As above, despite being flashed its still their responsibility to make correct observations and relying on anyone else is an erro.
You have right of way as they are joining the primary road.
and there's a cycle lane and you're cycling down it
just before this goes any further, please clarify:
> cycle lane on the main carriageway and passing in front of the side road
OR
> cycle lane/shared path off the main carriageway and crossing the side road (often with dipped kerb or give way marker)
As that makes a massive difference to who has 'right of way', but still very the flasher shouldn't be flashing and the flashee should be looking before pulling out anyway.
Too many people see someone flashing and assume that means its safe to pull out and stop looking and checking at that point, they've basically handed their decision making over to someone else, a bit mad when you think about it.
"110
Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users."
On the bike it's all about anticipation. Be ready for other people to make mistakes.
When there's a queue I prefer to filter on the outside of the traffic so that I can see and be seen, regardless of whether there's a cycle lane on the road (around here those lanes are always too narrow anyway).
The driver pulls out of the side road
you have right of way
glad you're ok, just ignore the abuse and don't let it bug you (easier said than done I know 🙂
Flashing lights has nothing to do with it, its the responsibility of the person pulling out to check its safe to do so.
However neither of them (rightly or wrongly) computed that a bike was involved and are just thinking about their situation between the 2 of them.
When filtering in that situation you almost have to expect that to happen. Doesnt surprise me that most drivers think it would be your reponsibility as a cyclist to stop, and as such you need to ride with that in mind.
you have right of way - but doesnt help when your flat on the road - been there done that.
that's where I was when taken out by an oncoming driver turning right, good sight lines, plenty of time to see me, just didn't look, got flashed through and went, bang!When there's a queue I prefer to filter on the outside of the traffic so that I can see and be seen,
regardless of legal fault, the onus is on cyclists to be aware of things like this happening - looking out for junctions, etc.
filtering on the right of stationary traffic certainly helps, even if there is a cycle lane that you "should" be in.
it's nice to be right, but not from a hospital bed.
who's in the wrong?The guy pulling out.
Also the guy flashing someone out, according to a friend after his advanced drivers test if I remember correctly - by doing so you take some responsibility to say the way is clear and in a resulting accident you may held liable.
Anyone know if this is right?
Remember early on when I first passed my test - a guy pulled across my path at some lights so I flashed him in annoyance. The car behind him promptly took that as a flash to him to go and we got fairly close to having a pretty decent crash.
Since then I rarely flash anyone. Which is good at thats what the judge told me to do in that Court Order... 😛
Many years ago I was cycling in Richmond (Surrey) in when the bus next to me flashed a car to turn across its, and my, path into a car park. I hit the car at speed ending up on the roof of it, my wheels (Spinergy Rev-X no less) and forks snapped. I wasn't hurt fortunately. The car driver's insurance paid up within a week new for old
when did cycling in the cycle lane become filtering ?
this is why cycle lanes should be more than a line painted on the road.
the ammount of times cars just treat them like an extension of the road/giveway etc without checking their mirrors.....
That's one problem with a cycle lane - works quite well when everyone's overtaking you, but in this situation (focussing on the mechanics of it) you are basically filtering past a solid line of traffic, on the left, past junctions, in the dark.
Would you approach that differently (or not do it at all) if there wasn't a foot-wide strip of orange tarmac there?
"Courtesy Causes Confusion" -- it's not quite like that, but as soon as you interfere with the flow of traffic - even if folk are upset that you *don't* then it's not going to end well IMO.
I might - in stop start traffic - not pull away if someone is coming out of a side road, but I would try not to indicate to them - let them make up their mind..
If the traffics pretty stationary you have to expect that people will let others out from a side road. If your cycle lane is part of the road then your undertaking and need to be very aware of that. If you look ahead and see a driver has left a gap at a side road then you can be pretty sure someone will pull into it or possibly across it from the opposite carriageway.
I say you all three contributed in some way to your near miss and that if anyone of you had been more aware it wouldn't have happened. So basically as you are the one that's going to get hurt you have the greatest incentive to be the most cautious.
[quote=brakes said]regardless of legal fault, the onus is on cyclists to be aware of things like this happening - looking out for junctions, etc.
filtering on the right of stationary traffic certainly helps, even if there is a cycle lane that you "should" be in.
it's nice to be right, but not from a hospital bed.
This. Be safe out there.
On any driving course I've ever done, the advice was never flash your lights to let people out/across/etc. - by all means wait and let them out, but never flash, because when it goes wrong they'll try and blame you. Especially if you're in a jam sandwich!
drives me mad. not only when I'm on a bike but when I'm driving behind some pillock who for some reason wants to be everyone's mate by flashing their lights at people waiting to pull out/across.
stop it you dickheads!
"Courtesy Causes Confusion"
Certainly does! This morning at Kirkhill roundabout, I'm travelling North and turning right to go to airport, some numpty in the outside lane (outer lane of roundabout, long way around) just in front of me (who, it turns out is doing a 180 degree turn to head back to Aberdeen as I saw in my mirrors 3 seconds later!), decides to stop on the roundabout and let out some queuing traffic from the Southbound carriageway. I carry on with my manouvre, indicating left after I pass the Northbound exit and all the traffic that had just started to move off, slams on as I sail past them. My exit was unobstructed by stationary traffic.
There's too much of that in Aberdeen, When it's gridlock, yes. Not when everything is moving smoothly.
The driving pulling out is in the wrong as everyone else has said. The only (amazingly!) accident I have ever had was when I was 19 and I was the driver pulling out to turn right. The driver behind the "flasher" pulled out to overtake the "flasher" and we hit head on, on the wrong side of the road. Insurance said it was my fault. Lesson learnt - always make up your own mind about pulling out.
Just for clarity the cycle lane was part of the main road sectioned by painted white lines.
It's happened numerous times to me however this was the closest I got to hitting the car.
Being in the right but in the minority out there on the road makes all the more annoying.
filtering on the right can be just as bad, watchout for bored drivers suddenly doing uturns
as the potentially injured victim there is a self preservation onus to watch out for these ***wits but legally the onus is on the person pulling into/across traffic. No-one is saying keep riding at the idiots who pull out in the smug knowledge you're in the right, we're just pointing out who is legally at fault.the onus is on cyclists to be aware of things like this happening
I think insurance companies may try this tactic to weasel out of paying the full costs (despite, afaik, a flash merely meaning "I am here") but reckon you'd be pretty unlucky to get anything other than a "silly boy" off the rozzers. IANALaccording to a friend after his advanced drivers test if I remember correctly - by doing so you take some responsibility to say the way is clear and in a resulting accident you may held liable
False courtesy is to be avoided as it breaks the right of way and leads to dangerous situations like this.
But whatever the legal ins out outs, when filtering I think you should always be ultra-careful of this kind of behaviour as people do it thinking they're being nice and so see nothing wrong with it.
Basically as my Grandad said to my Mum when she was learning to drive (late 1950's), assume everyone else on the road is an idiot...
If someone slows right down on a main road to let others out or turn across/in with me behind them I'll beep. Its not a give way line and its not courtesy its bordering on stupidity. I had someone virtually go from 40 to zero in a 40 limit to let a family cross the road. There was me and 4 other cars behind him- the car behind him almost went right up his arse. It was bizarre- the driver even did the 'what/flabbergasted arm gesture through the rear window.
Leave courtesy to opening the door for someone. Roads should only ever follow the rules laid out in black and white.
if there was a family "stranded" in the middle of the road I'd give way for them, better that than some **** on their phone not seeing them and mowing them down, wouldn't slam on for it tho, easy controlled slow down - if practicalI had someone virtually go from 40 to zero in a 40 limit to let a family cross the road
Donk side of the road ready to cross.
You wouldn't do it if there were cars behind/following you.
filtering on the right can be just as bad, watchout for bored drivers suddenly doing u-turns
Or seeing a side road on the right and cutting off down it to try and avoid traffic. However the benefit of filtering down the right (which is what I normally do) is you can see the staggeringly high number of drivers texting, tweeting and updating Facebook. It seems to be the done thing now. Oh it's a queue of traffic, not going anywhere for 30 seconds, I'll just text. 🙄
Calling it "filtering" does not make overtaking at a junction any less dangerous.
💡
I always find it annoying when the flow of main road traffic gets stopped due to this
More often than not there is a clear road after 2 or 3 cars have passed the junction anyway
It just seems to cause problems
jameso - Member
who's in the wrong?
The guy pulling out.Also the guy flashing someone out, according to a friend after his advanced drivers test if I remember correctly - by doing so you take some responsibility to say the way is clear and in a resulting accident you may held liable.
Anyone know if this is right?
The guy flashing someone out isn't at fault, the guy pulling out is always at fault. No court would hold the flasher in any way responsible whatsoever. Either your friend is wrong, or you haven't remembered correctly. 😉