[Closed] What's with people racing 'challenge' events? Or just me that isn't? Discuss

The finish times used to be posted in alphabetical order in an attempt to make it more difficult to compare times.

but why publish times at all?

Serious question it is a challenge, so what purpose is served by publishing a time when anyone can get the results dump them in excel and then claim to have finished in X position??? If you want to know how long you took that is what cycle computers and watches can do. Only difference is you can't know what other peoples time was.

thinking, I can never remember seeing results published in any form for the HONC, i can remember getting given a finish time when i have done it but no more.

What mrmo said. Remove all timing except a fairly generous maximum allowable time (like an audax) so that the organisers can have a set time that they can start packing up for the day.

There are never results for the HONC other than mentioning who was first home which I guess is a result of sorts but...

For me it's just a case that they're often attended by people who aren't quick enough for 'real' racing, so they turn things like that into a race.

is this a put-down? are you condemning them for not being quick enough to race? if you are, then maybe you're part of the problem.

and i suppose if you want to push the Audax thing further, introduce check point opening times, IF you arrive early you can't be said to have completed until your card is stamped....which means standing around until someone lets you leave.

Then you can race from point to point, but you just get to stand around for longer.

[quote=njee20 ]For me it's just a case that they're often attended by people who aren't quick enough for 'real' racing,
Is it not the case that most road racers are only as quick as they appear because they have a bunch to hide in/behind and that winning is as much about "race-craft" as anything else? If everyone raced TT style then only the truly fastest would win.

only issue I have is that these events are aimed at getting times up so if you just want to pootle then why enter, spaces are limited, you may as well save your money, and let someone who does want to ride it as intended the chance to do so. too many people take up the limited places for these events and just bimble round, I dont mine if youre slow but want to challenge yourself, but dont just waste the limited places.
you can go bimble round any time.

njee20 » For me it's just a case that they're often attended by people who aren't quick enough for 'real' racing,

Probably but hardly suprising. I used to road race and was decent enough at it. Now I'd get shelled out very quickly so there'd be no point me going to a road race. If I did a sportive, I could to some extent replicate road racing even in my shocking state of fitness.

FWIW, I don't really do sportives but I can see why people do and race them.

njee20 - Member
For me it's just a case that they're often attended by people who aren't quick enough for 'real' racing, so they turn things like that into a race. Ego boost. No different to sportives.

I expect better from you. We're not all super fit race Elite gods and never will be.

only issue I have is that these events are aimed at getting times up so if you just want to pootle then why enter, spaces are limited, you may as well save your money, and let someone who does want to ride it as intended the chance to do so. too many people take up the limited places for these events and just bimble round, I dont mine if youre slow but want to challenge yourself, but dont just waste the limited places.
you can go bimble round any time.

so they are races then? which makes most of them illegal?

only issue I have is that these events are aimed at getting times up

Really? I always thought racing (and training) was for getting times up and that these non race events were about increasing participation and having a nice day out with cyclists that you wouldn't otherwise ride with and probably in an area that you wouldn't normally ride.

is this a put-down? are you condemning them for not being quick enough to race? if you are, then maybe you're part of the problem.

No it wasn't meant to be, perhaps I should have used the word "perceive" in there somewhere! I think people perceive that 'real' racing can be too competitive/difficult, so they do non-competitive events and turn them into their own competitions. These things are usually referred to as a race, even when they're clearly not.

Is it not the case that most road racers are only as quick as they appear because they have a bunch to hide in/behind and that winning is as much about "race-craft" as anything else? If everyone raced TT style then only the truly fastest would win.

In part for sure, but I'm prepared to wager the average road racer is fitter than the average sportive participant, and I know plenty of MAMIL types who will gladly tell everyone they did a race at the weekend, meaning a sportive.

I don't mean it in a derogatory fashion at all, it's a certain subset of riders, who I think are drawn to events like this, and display the attitude Chipps talks about.

Not saying in any way that everyone who enters is of that mindset, or that indeed those who are like that aren't necessarily very quick racers.

[quote=njee20 ]
In part for sure, but I'm prepared to wager the average road racer is fitter than the average sportive participant, and I know plenty of MAMIL types who will gladly tell everyone they did a race at the weekend, meaning a sportive.
Sure, but the sort of stuff you do isn't "real" racing either, is it? It's not like you're competing with the really fit/fast guys, so what's the point? 🙂

Very true, but where did I make such a comparison, or say "like me", or anything like that?

I entered it as a race, it said it was a race. I had trained for it, I did nowt the two days before on the bike so I was fresh. I set off like it was a race (anyone in the 9.25 am start wave see my greyhound out of the trap start to confirm?) Got 41.4mph downhill on a xc gheyboi bike, thought it was good course, did not finish though as my spandex was not warm enough, will try and WIN IT next year.

I got three KOM Strava uphill segments on the route as I use this for training and looking back at the stats.

I also race on the road with BC+LVRC, TT's and BCF XC races.

So what??????

I also live on the door step of Rivington and organise un official XC knarlfest races round there with my mates (This is the how MTB all started "back in the day ya know") PM if you fancy a burn up around this area (dropper post/body armour/45 litre ruck sac riders need not apply)

BTW Waste of time this thread.

^^ That encapsulates the sort of attitude I was thinking of just perfectly! 🙄

I'm hoping it's ironic!?

Kingkongsfinger, you've just Alphamaled yourself into my affections 😛

njee20 - Member
^^ That encapsulates the sort of attitude I was thinking of just perfectly!
I'm hoping it's ironic!?

It was race, end of.

Been MTB'ing and racing since 1987, I was born before the "wrapped up in cotton wool culture began and also before the H+S and PC brigade"

(Although we need the above for many of the numpties that ride bikes nowadays that are blindly lead and told what they "NEED" by magazines/websites and forums like this)

Was a good RACE EVENT which was ultimately a bit grim and let down purely by the weather.

For every 'subset' of riders, there is an equal and opposite 'subset' of inverted snobs looking over the rim of their glasses at them, tutting at them for not being in a 'proper' race, or indeed not knowing it wasn't a race (according to them(ETA:the inverted 'snobs', not the subset of riders))

perhaps I should have used the word "perceive" in there somewhere! I think people perceive that 'real' racing can be too competitive/difficult, so they do non-competitive events and turn them into their own competitions

My perceptions of how tough real racing is are based on finding myself right at the back of a proper XC race despite not being all that unfit - when I know I'd still have been up towards the front of any "challenge" type event (yes I know it's not a race, but anybody who reckons nobody will be trying to go faster than the next person even if they have no timing at all is rather naive). As mentioned above, there are several reasons why people prefer challenge events to "proper" racing - firstly that it is too hard and your average punter (who would still like to compete against other punters) will find themselves off the back, which is of course a self-fulfilling prophecy as the punters don't turn up. I'm old enough to have raced back when XC racing was popular, and despite having been a much worse rider then, didn't experience the same issue. Also challenge events get to see lots of the countryside on a varying route, rather than round and round the same little course. Finally there's the distance involved - challenges tend to be longer, which certainly suits me personally.

It is very similar in a way to the debate about road racing vs. sportives. I always reckoned lower cat road races were too short and on terrain which wasn't challenging enough - almost every one I ever entered finished in a bunch sprint as there was nothing to split the field. A totally different challenge to sportives in terms of terrain. I'll wave my willy here as I was once the fastest finisher in a little local sportive - I'm not all that sure we were racing though, as I certainly never really had the intention of trying to beat the other chaps who were in the little group we formed at the front (we even stopped to wait for one chap at the top of a climb part way round, and then when it was down to 2 I stopped to wait for the other chap when he had a mechanical), it was just a case of the others dropping off the pace in the tougher bits of the course.

njee20
^^ That encapsulates the sort of attitude I was thinking of just perfectly!
I'm hoping it's ironic!?

(encapsulates) In what respect njee? 😯

 

I have a new favourite line from this thread, thanks.

did not finish though as my spandex was not warm enough

I woory because I have sat down with some of the people who if impacted by this type of event be writing very strong letter to the local council, NT and local landowners with every intent of using it as a case for reducing MTB access, they sit on the Local Access Forums and have long memories and bear grudges

A strongly worded letter? Ooh I'm worried already. Seriously these guys don't actually make the law on access, so I'm struggling to see how they can prevent us from riding on BWs no matter how upset they get. If MTB access was being significantly increased by such forums, and this was likely to be set back then there might be an issue, but it isn't is it?

The elephant in the room here is the archaic law about racing on BWs. Yes we can legally race on FPs (as I have many times), but as soon as you meet a BW you have to cross then you're tiptoeing around the law. Oh, but if you strap an engine to your bicycle then all of a sudden it is then legal to race on a BW. The big issue here isn't non-compliance with the law, it's the stupidity of the law. It did even get brought up in parliament during the debate on the most recent bill about access, but the minister concerned appeared to completely misunderstand the issue and dismissed it out of hand (if anybody can remind me what that bill is and so give me a clue where to start I'll try and dig up the relevant quotes from Hansard). What we should be doing is working on a concerted campaign to repeal the current law, rather than complaining about people breaking it.

Been MTB'ing and racing since 1987, I was born before the "wrapped up in cotton wool culture began and also before the H+S and PC brigade"

so you were wearing the black alpaca tights then? when they kicked up a fuss over mass start road races?

Cycle racing on Bridleways has always been banned, nothing to do with H&S. If you don't like it compaign to get the law changed, or accept it isn't a race and that you will have to give way as and when necessary.

local council, [b]NT and local landowners[/b]

Pretty sure that the last two can restrict access if they choose and it's not actually a RoW...

I wish you'd get over this obsession with whether it's legal or not fella, quite simply, we don't CARE !!!! Not in the slightest...

too many people take up the limited places for these events and just bimble round, I dont mine if youre slow but want to challenge yourself, but dont just waste the limited places.
you can go bimble round any time.

of course it depends whether it's a proper sportive or is actually a race that can't afford full insurance/find a decent course so is mislabelled a sportive.

At the semantic level, calling something a challenge is going to make people 'challenge' themselves. Usually by trying to complete the challenge quickly, as opposed to seeing who can stare off at the view for the longest...though I kind of like this idea!

I guess if it was called a 'bimble' or something similar you'd get a different type of entrant and a different atmosphere.

It's unlikely the organisers gave it the wrong name by accident, so they were probably looking to take on some of the attributes that the word 'challenge' inspires.

Interesting read on where MTB is these days.

imo the appeal of the early (late 80s-very early 90s) races was that an average rider wasn't miles off the pace aside from the front few and could have some fun during the event. Whereas now XC races seem to be a smaller, faster crowd? Or at least that seems to be common perception. So 'events' pull in the average riders who still want a bit of race sport without the pressure or seriousness associated with 'proper racing', as well as fast riders who want a different challenge outside of lap-based races.
Since NPS-style racing is almost a side-line niche now, events are filling the need for the majority and that seems to be close to where it was in the early days.

Bike events should be whatever you make of them, as long as you're not one of those shouty idiots barging past people in a race for 27th place.

too many people take up the limited places for these events and just bimble round, I dont mine if youre slow but want to challenge yourself, but dont just waste the limited places.

Sancho - Member

only issue I have is that these events are aimed at getting times up so if you just want to pootle then why enter, spaces are limited, you may as well save your money, and let someone who does want to ride it as intended the chance to do so. too many people take up the limited places for these events and just bimble round,

Ironically every race organiser in the world would say the opposite- numbers of races are related to demand. More bimblers = more races. Often no bimblers = no race at all.

I wish you'd get over this obsession with whether it's legal or not fella, quite simply, we don't CARE !!!! Not in the slightest...

you don't have to care, i assume that when the landowner sues you for damages, or blocks the trails. etc you won't care. When the landowner in the case of the NT invokes the bylaws, racing on a bridleway means you will be tresspassing, and takes you to court for tresspass, i guess you won't care. In future when someone wants to organise an event and this gets thrown in their face you won't care?

When the landowner applies for the trail to be closed or rerouted, you won't care, etc, etc.

The stupid thing is you can race on a footpath!!!!

[url= http://imba.org.uk/public-rights-of-way/cycle-racing-on-bridleways/ ]http://imba.org.uk/public-rights-of-way/cycle-racing-on-bridleways/[/url]

Pretty sure that the last two can restrict access if they choose and it's not actually a RoW...

Where is there such access not on a RoW?

Slightly bizarre in any case, as the suggestion appears to be that access will be removed from trails which it is legal to race on because people have raced on trails which it isn't legal to race on. Presumably if people had raced on the trails you're proposing they might withdraw access from then there wouldn't actually be a problem?

Is spandex the same thing as lycra then? Genuine question, I've never heard a cyclist, let alone someone claiming to be racer, call it spandex.

I havent read all this but what I have read I agree with Crikey and Oldgit.

Its not racing if nobody else knows its a race and unless everyone agrees its a race "winning" means FA.

To you. Not necessarily to everyone. Hence the thread 😉

i assume that when the landowner sues you for damages, or blocks the trails. etc you won't care.

Sues you for damaging a RoW? If you can point out to me where that has ever happened I might accept you have a point. Blocks a RoW? Well that would be illegal.

When the landowner in the case of the NT invokes the bylaws, racing on a bridleway means you will be tresspassing, and takes you to court for tresspass

Which bylaw is that exactly? I don't see any mention in the law about racing on BWs of it revoking your RoW.

When the landowner applies for the trail to be closed or rerouted

The BW? I think you'll find they have to have rather greater cause than that somebody raced down it one day to do that (even assuming they can prove that actually happened).

Its not racing if nobody else knows its a race and unless everyone agrees its a race "winning" means FA.

I doubt those who are "racing" care all that much what you think! Most of us are happy that it isn't officially a race, just that some are upset at people going as fast as possible and trying to be faster than other people unless an event is properly sanctioned.

What we should be doing is working on a concerted campaign to repeal the current law, rather than complaining about people breaking it.

Spandex is used sometimes in the US instead of lyca.

It has a ring to it, a certain panache, I use it instead of lyca as it amuses me. (small things blah blah)

BTW The name "spandex" is an anagram of the word "expands".

mrmo - Member

Been MTB'ing and racing since 1987, I was born before the "wrapped up in cotton wool culture began and also before the H+S and PC brigade"

so you were wearing the black alpaca tights then? when they kicked up a fuss over mass start road races?

Cycle racing on Bridleways has always been banned, nothing to do with H&S. If you don't like it compaign to get the law changed, or accept it isn't a race and that you will have to give way as and when necessary.

One word....spinaci

lycra is a branded elastic

Spandex is used sometimes in the US instead of lyca.

I like racing to the extent that most mass start enduro/challenge/fun events don't really appeal to me. Who wants to queue to ride sections, or be held up so badly you have to freewheel the best bits?* I'm not the kind of racer who barges past people either, but I do like to ride as hard as my waning speed and fitness allow. I can't say that I'm excited about the prospect of being routed over lots of boring non technical wide track and even tarmac just to link the decent bits together either. Give me a solid XC course any day, especially if it's on private land and you get to ride non IMBA compliant sections because the land gets to recover for a year.

It seems to me that if you think you're some kind of hero for overtaking hordes of fun riders with little fitness and/or off-road experience, but think XC racing is too serious or poncy, then you might want to think about that fragile ego of yours and have a proper look at racing because for most it's done for exactly the same reasons of fun and personal challenge.

The law does seem to be an ass on bridleways, but while it is, even untimed mass or staggered start events don't seem responsible to me because deep down most of us are competitive to some extent, so it's bound to end up in bad publicity for mtb at some point giving fuel to the anti mtb access nut jobs.

* The exception I'll grant is the Roc D'Azur event. Getting held up by the sheer number of riders was frustrating after puncturing 3 times, but it is just so brilliant I'll forgive it this weakness. If you get national series point though you should get an earlier start wave though.

One word....spinaci

and,

Nothing wrong with resting your forearms on the tops if your not racing, i find i get a uncomfortable after a couple of miles. I was under the impression commisiares don't tend to look favourably at it...