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Does it matter?
Not if you can't perceive any potential problem from people running illegal races on bridleways.
It should be okay though, I mean its not as if there are any vociferous people around who would rather mountain bikes had less, rather than more, access to trails, is there?
EDIT: Also, should any of the "racers" have ploughed into a horse, a pedestrian or even a child's face, on a public bridleway, I wonder if the public liability insurance for this "challenge" would have paid out once they read the website as quoted above?
No, it doesn't matter at all....
If it's easy to organise a bridleway-based 'race' and call it a challenge, with less expense and legal obligations, then what's the incentive for regular race organisers?
Personaly I didn't stop to think if this race may be 'illegal' I presumed it was (especially with the national trust involved)...I also presumed it would be well marked and marshaled 😆
would I have paid my £7, turned up and raced if I knew it wasn't legal to do so....I'm not sure.
would I have entered if the race/challenge wasn't timed....probably not.
now I come to think about it I'm surprised there's not a lot more of MTB TT events (or maybe there are but they're hush hush)?
The original post strikes me as rather Talk Sport like, "such and such is so and so" just to raise a response from the audience, pretty lame to be honest.
If racing on BW's or crossing them during a race is illegal, can someone answer these queries:
1, Does Mountain Mayhem or any of the other endurance XC events cross one or use one at any point?
2, In the Gravity Enduro series are any of the sections where you move between trail sections in an allotted time on BW's (I may have this wrong, I do apologise)
3, If its advertised and sold as a race on British Cycling, why does this thread even exist?
Not if you can't perceive any potential problem from people running illegal races on bridleways.
Perhaps this is the problem - not the running of races on bridleways but that it is illegal.
If I recall the Whinlatter challenge route can't be a race as it crosses a BW [swear filter jackpot] how can that be anything other than a technicality that needs fixing by not making it a problem.
http://www.manxe2e.org/ Manx End to End - a race and a challenge with prizes and stuff. Great event well organised loads of local support riding on everything there is to ride on.
Perhaps it's time to start lobbying for the right to hold events with land owners permission on right of way. Open up the countryside properly.
I do see your point Chipps (even if it did seem very badly made with an example that was actually billed as a race) for me it goes back to good old fashioned competitiveness, no prize for second you might as well have been last. Winning is about coming first as a nation we need to remember that. Forget the prizes for tried really hard but came in 2 days after everybody else.
Perhaps my point is that there are scant few organisers in the UK organising 'proper' XC races.
Probably because not enough people are interested. The basic gist of these arguments seems to be 'I like 'proper' XC races, there's not enough of them, it's all the fault of the Strava obsessed posers who do Sportives for not being as hardcore as me'.
Oh, and is racing on BWs more illegal than riding on footpaths?
you get some mighty willies being waved at times
That's what racing is, and that's why it's different to pretend racing.
good old fashioned competitiveness, no prize for second you might as well have been last. Winning is about coming first as a nation we need to remember that. Forget the prizes for tried really hard but came in 2 days after everybody else.
Exactly.
The basic gist of these arguments seems to be 'I like proper XC races, there's not enough of them, it's all the fault of the Strava obsessed **** who do Sportives for [s]not being as hardcore as me[/s] not actually wanting to race because it's a bit too hard'.
..would be closer to my opinion.
If it's easy to organise a bridleway-based 'race' and call it a challenge, with less expense and legal obligations, then what's the incentive for regular race organisers?
Not a lot. Is that a problem?
The demise of the xc race started a long time be for the rise of the xc 'challenge'.
"Proper" XC racing like the Euros do, with lycra skinsuits, 100mm hardtails (probably 29ers) and peakless helmets? Seems to me that the MTB media in this country has been condemning that for years.
Why does it particularly bother if people are 'racing' or riding. If it doesn't spoil your enjoyment then why worry?
I woory because I have sat down with some of the people who if impacted by this type of event be writing very strong letter to the local council, NT and local landowners with every intent of using it as a case for reducing MTB access, they sit on the Local Access Forums and have long memories and bear grudges
and yes, I have seen what they send and the council responses
chipps - I work here
Perhaps my point is that there are scant few organisers in the UK organising 'proper' XC races. They go to the trouble of finding a venue (not that easy) where they can set up a decent course, marshal it and organise a race, with insurance, on a closed course. This lets riders go as balls-out as they want without worrying about ending up facing a horse bum round a corner.
I would love to compare the financials, paperwork, risk assessments, signage protocols etc for a "challenge" compared to a "mtb xc race" organised under BC rules
If it's easy to organise a bridleway-based 'race' and call it a challenge, with less expense and legal obligations, then what's the incentive for regular race organisers?
what are the incentives now?
The vast majority of sponsor money is going to the "challenges", they can use anywhere without paying landowners (or getting permission) and people are prepared to pay more to enter them. They gain large entries due to the "fun run/ challenge/ race" aspect where people choose how "competitive" or not they are. BC etc turn a blind eye as it is helping their "participation" figures. The reality is that it's a hostage to fortune which one day will go badly wrong
...and you can have both, you don't need to have events that are 'races' under the radar, you don't need to have events pretending to be races.
":1, Does Mountain Mayhem or any of the other endurance XC events cross one or use one at any point?"
Mayhem certainly never has, nor Sleepless. One of the problems with finding a 10 mile course anywhere in England and Wales is that lots of the country is blessed with bridleways, making racing along, or even crossing one, out of the question. That's why Mayhem has used private country estates for the last ten years. The Commonwealth Games at Rivington Pike couldn't use much of the land as there's a solid ring of bridleway around the top of the hill. Ironically, you can cross or use a footpath, with the owner's permission, but nothing short of an act of parliament is going to let you race on a bridleway.
I don't know about Enduros as much, but I'd assume that the liaison stages are on forest roads and probably bridleways. However those stages aren't timed and there's no prize for getting to the start of the next stage quickly.
crikey - some people don't like 'proper' racing. Why does it bother you so much/why is it any of your business?
'Middle-class racing' - FFS. So at a 'proper' XC race you only get manly men who've jut finished a 14 hour shift in the sawmill eh?
Crikey, may I ask what level you compete/race at? It would be interesting to hear from international standard racers and how they view developments at the lower skill/time available levels. Are you at that standard? Can you give a European race perspective as well? Does it differ?
Scotroutes, very true. The standard MTB attire seems quite different in Eu.
I love how the strava haterz get their diggs in about it killin racing as everyone is too soft. The top guys on strava here race national and international XCO.
It's easier to organise a sportive so people do, then people enter that doesn't make them soft, is it worse if they try? I'm guessing the guy at the front is.
I with a lot of other people use Strava as a logging, documenting and motivational tool. I'd love to race more but the events I like doing are few and far between. The local XC scene is sewn up and mostly run on INCREDIBLY DULL trails so not to scare the ROADIES WHO THINK THEY ARE MOUNTAIN BIKING. In the end the idea of being able to race a course over a staggered start appeals as I wouldn't have ot get held up by all the people who sprint up the first hill then get off or tripod past a rock or a twig.
Anyway enough people are confusing strava with racing (mostly people who are not doing either I suspect) There is a nice local Strava challenge going on in the south of the island 3 tracks all participants must be members of the local club so that they are insured, great following loads still turn up to the races though.
Oh, and is racing on BWs more illegal than riding on footpaths?
did you know that you can mtb race on/ across a footpath, you can't do that with a bridleway
sorry if it's been covered but does "trying for a personal best" differ from racing at all?
to me it would seem
racing = me and a mate/s riding shoulder to shoulder trying to be the first one to get to the end of the trail*
PB = riding quicker than usual.
are both viewed as the same in law and ergo illegal? How do road time trialers manage? or can you race on the road but not BW? if so why? both public access. Timed events seem much more PB kinda area than racey racey.
edit
why are our access laws so ****ed up?did you know that you can mtb race on/ across a footpath, you can't do that with a bridleway
*doh! was thinking in XC mode, forgot that DH racing is all timed 🙄
I woory because I have sat down with some of the people who if impacted by this type of event be writing very strong letter to the local council, NT and local landowners with every intent of using it as a case for reducing MTB access, they sit on the Local Access Forums and have long memories and bear grudges
I haven't done the race/challenge, but looking on the website it's interesting to note that it is organised in conjunction with the NT.
I raced first in 'sport' and then in 'elite' mountain biking, and travelled around the UK to race in a couple of National series. I then raced cyclo-cross in the NW region, and in the regional champs. Then I did some fell running, then I did about 8-9 years of road racing in the UK and in Europe, mostly Belgium, bit in the Netherlands, bit in Mallorca.
I've no issue with people doing events, none.
My issue is with the idea that these events are 'racing'.
why is it any of your business?
I like to share my thoughts 😉
I recall the times when the UK had a massive XC race scene and I recall how it fell to bits; we seem to be at a similar point in time
when I entered I thought we will be given access to some interesting NT land, this was some of the appeal to me!
all this choose proper racing or be gay and ride challenges is a load of horse s##t. most people I know who race competitively also ride/race challenges, TT's, sportifs etc (each for various reasons)
What do you think were the reasons for it falling to bits Crikey?
I imagine the constant changes at to what organisation was responsible for xc races didn't help.
But I think a big problem is that bike technology has changed to the extent that not much more than basically riding round a field tested the skills on a 1990 mtb rider in the way that it no longer does on a bike 20 years newer.
Also the lack of club ethos in mtbing means that you don't get the grass roots organisation that say running clubs and road clubs have that keeps costs down.
Thanks crikey, I understand better. But within the "proper" race scene was there a hierachy of events? So would a TdF rider consider a racer in a minor event elsewhere in Europe still a "racer"?
FWIW - I think the race tag means different things to different people. I used to "race" triathlons and would collapse at the end having given it my all. Ditto XC runs in the winter. But I was never at the top of my age group and never a winner in that sense. So was I really "racing"? For me the race was against myself, my own plans and my direct peer group. For us, we were racing each other and it was for real. But for the guys at the head of the field we were an irrelevance and possibly mocked us over forties (I hate the middle-aged tag) men in lycra.
Apart from XTT tris, the only MTB event that I entered was a kind of sportive. My mates and I tried our hardest to achieve our best time possible, to beat each other (and to a lesser extent ensure gold category). Were we "racing"?
I woory because I have sat down with some of the people who if impacted by this type of event be writing very strong letter to the local council, NT and local landowners with every intent of using it as a case for reducing MTB access, they sit on the Local Access Forums and have long memories and bear grudges
I was dealing with Chipps' comment on how people treat the events, not how they are promoted. These are quite different arguments but the latter does create a culture for the former.
Wouldn't the easiest definition be that if it has timing then it's a race if it has no timing then it's a fun ride. Just scrap timing for everything that's not a race.
I know the definition is going to be a bit blurred by people uploading their times to strava after the event but anyone claiming to have 'won' because they have they are the quickest of the people that happen to have uploaded their times is pretty delusional. You're not the fastest, you're just the fastest that uses Strava. Big fish, small pond.
Ultimately we need races and we need fun rides or distance challenges, there will always be a few that take part in the fun rides that think they are racing but from my experience they are a pretty small percentage and are easily ignored.
There is a definite hierarchy of events, but a well defined one. The issue with challenges and sportives is that, in a relatively immature 'cycling scene' like the UK, or rather one which has died off then re-emerged, the sportives and challenges become the main focus rather than a stepping stone to racing.
As I say, my view is probably out of line with most peoples 😆
[quote=muppetWrangler ]Wouldn't the easiest definition be that if it has timing then it's a race if it has no timing then it's a fun ride. Just scrap timing for everything that's not a race.Exactly, but...
[quote=muppetWrangler ]You're not the fastest, you're just the fastest that uses StravaIsn't the thing about racing is that it's not necessarily the fastest person that wins?
I recall the times when the UK had a massive XC race scene and I recall how it fell to bits; we seem to be at a similar point in time
Enduro is where it's at now, suck it up princess. 🙂
Chucked this up for a non politic/practical brain dump
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-events-do-people-wan-to-do
here you go - northwest xc racing at grass level https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events?series_id=283 😉
Enduro is where it's at now, suck it up princess.
Grrr. 😆
cross racing is on the up but securing venues is apparently very challenging
I'll tell you why I don't race. I'm competitive, but I'm also not that fast. The thought of entering a race with minimal hope of getting anywhere near the leaders is thoroughly demoralising. Sure, I could train harder, but then this thing I do for fun and exercise threatens to become a chore. As such, the laid back nature of "challenges" appeals to me enormously. I'm under no illusion that it's a race, but I'll most certainly be competing with myself and those immediately around me, be it a road sportive or the Singletrack Weekender. I don't actually care whether it's called a race, a challenge or whatever.
I suspect people like me make up a much bigger chunk of "the market" than "serious racers". Supply and demand.
That said, I did note a comment above that I think it very relevant. I'm in a cycling club but, although there are plenty of keen mountain bikers in it, you might as well call it a road cycling club. There are plenty of events organised on the road, but nothing in the calendar for MTB i.e. the grass roots MTB racing is not supported. I suspect this is the same with most cycle clubs up and down the country.
The other relevant comment I picked up on was the one regarding bike technology. Racing around a field on a fully rigid MTB from 20 years ago is relatively safe. Nowadays most of us are throwing ourselves down some pretty serious terrain on extremely capable bikes and aren't interested in the "easy" stuff, hence the popularity of enduro. Can you imagine a mass-start event on this kind of terrain? Megavalanche? How many places in the UK would be suitable for something like that?
stilltortoise - MemberI'll tell you why I don't race. I'm competitive, but I'm also not that fast. The thought of entering a race with minimal hope of getting anywhere near the leaders is thoroughly demoralising.
Makes sense to me. I'm competitive with my mates and myself but not with the race leaders if you know what I mean. Some people seem to think that's a waste of time. But I had a bit of an epiphany when I realised that if you've got (frinstance, enduro or downhill) 300 racers, with perhaps 30 podium spots, the majority can't be in it to win it. And once I'd had that thought it made more sense to do races in the certain knowledge I'd finish bang in the middle, as long as it's [i]fun.[/i]
being competitive is all relative!
Perhaps I'm the only person who views these challenge events as a chance to wander around a bit of unfamiliar countryside with likeminded people, marshalls and medical backup and to stop for Haribo and a chat, often with a nice view
...whilst others might be busting a gut to keep up with you. This is the great thing about these big events. One man's "pootle" is another man's lung-buster. They're open to everyone.
how can;
a chance to wander around a bit of unfamiliar countryside with likeminded people, marshalls and medical backup and to stop for Haribo and a chat, often with a nice view
be interpreted as 'challenging' in an which way or form???
you mean my commute is not a race? My view is why care what others do? Just enjoy the event you can ride at whatever speed you like
Chipps, I think you raise some good points regarding incentives for organisers to keep going and the technicalities of bridal ways being used but if there's a clock running and prizes at the end then some if us will go as fast as we can.
While I know I'm not going to win I aim for the top third and enjoy trying to out climb, catch others and beat myself up doing it; even our night rides are competitive, it's just how some of us are 😀
who would still do this kind of event knowing it could be 'illegal' to do so?
Is it possible that Chipps is the exception here, being quite happy to pootle around these "not-a-race" events?
For me it's just a case that they're often attended by people who aren't quick enough for 'real' racing, so they turn things like that into a race. Ego boost. No different to sportives.
From the Tour de Ben Nevis blurb
However, we stress this is more of an event than a race. Those that are super fit and want to race hard will not be disappointed and the special timed sections will spice it up a bit and really bring out the competitors from within. Those who see this as a major personal challenge will be able to pace themselves and enjoy the adventure and wilderness of this remote area.
Can't we leave it like that?
For me it's just a case that they're often attended by people who aren't quick enough for 'real' racing, so they turn things like that into a race. Ego boost. No different to sportives.
honestly this is not the case, I know some very competitive racers did the Malham race yesterday.
Start with the road, i think most know what a road race is, or what an Audax is, so what is a Sportive?
Move to MTB scene, we have XC races and Downhill races which the rules are fairly clear on what they are. then there are the challenge events, but are they the equivalent of a sportive or an Audax? both, neither???
As for riders, too many riders don't want to loose so choose not to race, but do ride in a manner that is almost racing. but on open tracks where they can't "loose" except to mates. If you don't do well at a challenge event you can't loose, if you do well then you get bragging rights it seems.
Is it possible that Chipps is the exception here, being quite happy to pootle around these "not-a-race" events?
I've entered a few road sportives and have never once considered them a race. The closest I got to that mentality was prior to the advent of bike GPS when I did use the events to try and keep up a good pace as it was the only time I would ride on unfamiliar roads without having to stop and whip out a map every few miles. But since GPS now allows me to do this on any ride I've started to treat sportives as more of a communal cycling day out.
There's a similar situation with the Exmoor Explorer and it was always made very clear at the start briefing that "this is not a race" as it was held on a combination of bridleways and permissive paths. The finish times used to be posted in alphabetical order in an attempt to make it more difficult to compare times.