MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I've always wondered this. Deep down, no matter what they say, every train operator I've ever had to book a bike on just seems to want to make it as difficult and off-putting as possible.
Scotrail have gone through various iterations of this, at one point even suggesting that people should just hire bikes at their final destination!
Most recently, trying to plan a short tour up to the northwest highlands, it's proving impossible to book a bike space on the train from Perth - Inverness - Lairg.
I tried several iterations of journey time and date, all of which returned "Cycle spaces are fully booked" which I didn't believe. A slightly torturous call to Scotrail revealed that although tickets and seats are available for booking, they don't release the cycle spaces for reservation 'for another 2-3 weeks'. Of course she couldn't confirm exactly when this would be so apparently you just need to keep trying until one day the cycle reservations magically become available. At the very least changing the message on the website would help not to put people off thinking spaces were all booked 🙄
So, general griping aside, it really feels like there is some weird, old school sort of political motivation to make it as difficult for cyclists as possible, do operators resent the loss of passenger spaces? Or is it just good old fashioned poor management/systems making it appear as if they want to make it difficult for customers? It's a crying shame as the potential is massive.
Between this and the lack of any sensible accommodation options on the West Coast I think I'd be better off just driving north with the car and doing loops from various locations....
You know there's this thing called the NC500, right? It sounds GREAT!
It's a huge PITA thats for sure - both for operators and for travelling public.
Trains have such a long lifespan and refitting them takes years, so trains bought/specified 20-30 years ago at the time of initial privatisation are still running around now. It's relatively easy to work out the income generated from a seat, but the revenue from a bike space is supplemental and not so easily understood. Given that any space given over to a cycle area leads to reduced seating (and invariably the DfT specification focuses on seats for long-distance services) then cycles are definitely a poor second priority (potentially third priority after the refreshment trolley and giving space for that).
Then when it comes to ticketing it becomes even more fraught with such a limited capacity on modern trains.
I think operators would welcome a bit of clarity on what's expected (specification from DfT for instance) and an industry approach to travelling with bikes (or indeed any oversize luggage), but given the widespread turmoil still being experienced from the fallout of COVID and the emergency 'renationalisation' I think it's a long way down the list of things to sort out.
Dunno, really grinds my gears though! I guess the fact they don't have luggage/guard vans any more makes it tricky. You'd have thought that a combination of cycling + rail would be the ideal sustainable travel solution for many people but they literally make it as difficult as possible 🙄 The most frustrating is the Eurostar as it would be so convenient to be able to access the awesome cycling facilities on the continent without a car, but because of their ridiculous stipulations it's essentially impossible. ☹️
Bikes on trains is an utter mess. I gave up years ago. My solution is to drive to a given start point then do a circular tour back to the car.
I share your pain.
The actual travel with bikes, I've never (finger's crossed) had a problem with. Booking them on is a massive PITA.
It's the lack of a joined up public transport policy that's the problem and running public transport to optimize for profits not ridership. It could be so different, look at Switzerland for example.
Yet another reason not to vote for the Tories if you're a cyclist.
You know there’s this thing called the NC500, right? It sounds GREAT!
You mean, as a reason for why space isn't available? As it is my route ends up doing 2-3 days of the NC500 anti-clockwise (unfortunately).
The actual travel with bikes, I’ve never (finger’s crossed) had a problem with. Booking them on is a massive PITA.
True! Which makes the booking clownshow even more unfortunate as the general experience is always good once you're on.
Bikes on trains is an utter mess. I gave up years ago. My solution is to drive to a given start point then do a circular tour back to the car.
Is becoming more and more attractive, given that I can't find any sort of reasonable accommodate at the end of each day anyway (i.e. no campsites or bunkhouses and hotels/pods etc. all wanting 2 nights minimum).
I guess maybe I'm expecting too much trying to cram a reasonably remote tour into as short a space of time as possible, severely limits options.
I sympathise with you as I am encountering the same problems sorting out modest Scottish tour.
I am thinking about just not bothering.
It’s the lack of a joined up public transport policy that’s the problem and running public transport to optimize for profits not ridership. It could be so different, look at Switzerland for example.
Absolutely guaranteed to change if there's a change of government, honest.
I'd say the trouble is the bikes take up rather a lot of revenue based space and in a lot of configurations also impact on the PRM space, which is not ideal.
Train operators don't like bikes? They also don't seem to like customers, trains, train drivers, the list goes on.
Only thing that do like is money.
We've managed three tours by train in the last two years.
Rode Lon Las Cymru to Holyhead.
Train from Shrewsbury > Cardiff - had to ride to Shrewsbury as cannot book a bike onto the Shrewsbury to Crewe line, had to go into Shrewsbury station to book, couldn't do it online, Transport for Wales site was a disaster, but once booked then no problems getting to Cardiff, train was busy and at least one person waiting with a bike on the platform at a station on the way to Cardiff couldn't get on.
Easy to book bikes on the Avanti to Crewe, space for 4 bikes.
Crewe to Shrewsbury - as above, no way to book bikes on so took our chances, three stressful commuters also waiting at the platform for a train with two bike spaces (we were relaxed, we could ride the 35 miles if we had to), train arrives, stressed commuters start stressing, but the guard recognised us from the train to Cardiff a week before and we all worked out who was getting off when and space for two bikes accommodated five.
Morecombe to Bridlington
Drove to Crewe (as no way to book on bikes, and didn't want to risk ****ing up the start of our ride as we had accommodation booked), bikes booked on the Avanti Crewe to Lancaster, easy peasy.
Bikes booked on for train from Bridlington to Crewe, via Sheffield I think, all ok until train cancelled, wife was a bit stressed but in the end it was ok and no one seemed to care about bikes or how many were on, never asked to show booking.
Shrewsbury to Isle of Man and back.
Rode from home to Chester and caught Merseyrail to Liverpool, no bike booking, train heaving but there are lots so could have waiting and caught another 30 mins later, all good, bit of a pain getting bikes from metro station to street level (small lift) but otherwise uneventful, pretty much the same on the way home, with a nice late night ride on the lanes from Chester.
Doing the North Norfolk Cycleway at Easter, driving to nr Hunstanton and parking at friends then riding to Ely, Kings Lynn, Cromer, will get train from Great Yarmouth to Cambridge on Easter Sunday all being well.
Trains have such a long lifespan and refitting them takes years, so trains bought/specified 20-30 years ago at the time of initial privatisation are still running around now
We've actually gone backwards regarding cycle provision. On the ECML a rake of mk4s and a 91 had a driving van on the southern end capable of carrying many, many bikes at launch in 1989 (>10). This was a vast improvement over the HSTs which had a teeny tiny guard's compartment in the blunt end of the power cars (it was so small that BR took to adding an office to the trailing carriage in ECML sets). Then they fitted cycle stands to them and that went down to 6. They they started to lock the vans up so you had great difficulty accessing them at either end of your journey. Then the 6 stands went down to about 2 - in a 20m long vehicle that was otherwise generally empty. Then they succumbed to some irrational thought and ordered the Azumas in which you're lucky if you can store one bike in each of the two lockers as there's fek all room inside. On one journey I found a bike locker fully occupied by some weirdo's wheeled cat transporter.
Because trains are run for profit instead of as a public service. Bikes take up, what, six seats? That's money that could be made.
It really baffles me that the Scotrail set up doesn't just release the bike spaces at the same time as the seats. They know the spaces are there.
Transpennine Express - for commuting with my bike the ritual is a whatsapp chat (!) the day before in which I tell them my train times and they tell me they can't access that system right now...but to keep the exchange of messages in case anyone asks (they never do).
Trains have such a long lifespan and refitting them takes years, so trains bought/specified 20-30 years ago at the time of initial privatisation are still running around now.
this seems like a wholly sensible source of the problem.
The government could fix it over night of course. just change the requirements that they cant turn away passengers with bikes, booking or not. Just make it work.
In the short term they could lose 6 seats and make " bike area" in a carriage as easily as undoing 6 x 4 bolts., surely?
In the longer term, make the bike area (that does seem to exist on all trains) just, not shit.
The bike specific areas are barely fit for purpose as it is, even if your bike is some the bizzare shape required to get onto the hanger, its gonna get wrecked by the next guys bike.
Bike and trains belong together. They should force a solution.
Because trains are run for profit instead of as a public service. Bikes take up, what, six seats? That’s money that could be made.
Yeah but that presumes otherwise fully booked trains, I'm not sure how many of the highland lines that actually occurs on (could be wrong).
Commuting lines yes but then my regular commute seems reasonably bike friendly, possibly because it's a short journey and people can reasonably be expected to stand in vestibules.
Maybe I've just had it good for too long, book-ending your tour with a train journey there and back always made it special.
An increasing ball ache I agree - I often take my Brompton instead (when that works) as a result.
Such hostility from staff too - have a bike on a train platform and you are instantly asked for your reservation.
I once missed a train and so couldn't book a reservation for the next one. The conductor made quite a big deal of the massive favour they were doing me in letting my bike on unreserved - into an empty guards van.
I'd happily pay for my bike if they could sort it all out, obviously not a priority, thanks Thatcher!
did this a few years back, I didn't do the organising but it was so much grief it's kind of put me off bothering again! Cycling thru London between stations was shit as despite cycle lane 95% of the way this was just used for parking by couriers/taxis (not the train company's fault admittedly!!) Train to Cardiff was OK although vertical storage which was a bit awkward loaded up with bikepacking bags. Train at Holyhead had very poor provision - only 4 spaces, and I saw at least 6 get turned away who'd come over on the ferry with bikes (so obviously there's demand!) And we could only book 2 spaces as a group (despite all 4 being available when we booked) so had to split up for the return journey.Rode Lon Las Cymru to Holyhead.
the only notable exception to this was another time in north Wales, some tiny village station, on a Sunday so long wait between trains, the conductor saw us bombing down the road and onto the platform just as the train was leaving so stopped it, allowed us on with a cheery wave & let us just dump our bikes in the corridor bit 😃Such hostility from staff too – have a bike on a train platform and you are instantly asked for your reservation.
By contrast, I've caught trains in post soviet countries with ancient trains that have small spaces but the staff are keen to make it work. I remember one in Latvia where the bike space was full and a guy got on and just propped his bike up on the seat next to him. Then in Lithuania and Poland, a three carriage commuter train had thirty cyclists on it - we were just allowed to pile them on top of one another as more cyclists got on board.
In the UK, any such behaviour would give a guard a meltdown but over there, the staff actively encouraged it and were happy to help. I'm not really sure why, over here, the attitude from staff is so strict about it.
To give you an idea of the unwillingness (and, frankly, given the ongoing issues train staff are having with their employers I don't entirely blame them) - Scotrail has a load of old Class 43 HSTs cascaded from the south west. As other people have said, these have a guard space in the locomotives with plenty of room for bikes. Cross County, GWR and LNER would let you put your bike in there. Scotrail won't and the reason is apparently because they can't decide who will do it. The train guards insist they don't have time to do it and meet the schedule, while the station staff insist the same. So you're stuck with a locker and a small space where they took some seats out. And they're always full.
I’m wondering if it’s due to legislation saying that train operators can’t charge to carry bikes?
In the UK, any such behaviour would give a guard a meltdown but over there, the staff actively encouraged it and were happy to help. I’m not really sure why, over here, the attitude from staff is so strict about it.
Generally my experience is don't stress about it and in doing so give the guard more stress and they will generally try to help you rather than say sorry full - we did a day ride, train to Newtown and then rode back to Shrewsbury - cycle storage was full but they let us put our bikes on and we stood with them and moved them to let the drinks trolley through as necessary, no drama.
Generally my experience is don’t stress about it and in doing so give the guard more stress and they will generally try to help you rather than say sorry full
It's true, I don't think I've ever met a guard who hasn't been pleasant and helpful, or at worst has made a token case for not putting the bike on but has then relented. I just don't want an intricate four day plan to rely on the grace and favour of a train guard! 😂
Have revised route to only use Glasgow - Ft William and Oban - Glasgow line, I think it's a lot more bike friendly although even then the super-mega-bike-carriage didn't use to run on every service so I imagine it might still be a rammy on the last service of the day.
Wish me luck, I'm going back to the Scotrail website...😬
More buses now take bikes - Citylink etc offer a bike sock, and lots more smaller companies now on board. By you the Ember bus has inside rack spaces on most buses, and Flix have a combination of external and internal racks.
I got booted off an LNER train last year with my bike, despite having a booking, because the spaces were full. Then, a couple of months later, I was on the train with my bike to Dunkeld with Scotrail and a couple who were cycle touring were refused boarding despite having reserved spaces for the bikes. I did have a Scotrail guard almost refuse three of us boarding because they'd used the wrong train, but fortunately after a bit of stress on his part we were allowed on. Despite having bookings.
Maybe I'm unlucky but I've found the staff variable at best. At worst they're essentially fine but unwilling to help out. And it shouldn't be a game of luck to get on a train with a bike when you have a booking.
Have you considered looking at some of the Citylink buses? They take a couple of bikes now and might be able to do Perth-Inverness instead of the train.
One thing to remember when dealing with train managers is that they have responsibility with very little autonomy and not much respect given to them.
One area where they do have autonomy is whether to allow bikes onto the train. Booking or not.
Have you considered looking at some of the Citylink buses? They take a couple of bikes now and might be able to do Perth-Inverness instead of the train.
No, will do that. I think a neighbour had had back luck with Citylink or suggested they weren't taking bikes on that route but perhaps they were just booked up
Edit: whilst bike spaces are apparently all booked (I'll take that as actually just not 'available for booking') it is surprisingly easy to connect Gleneagles to Fort William and back again from Oban, at a mere £140 all in! 🤣 Wonder if I'm paying the old Gleneagles supplement there...
Edit edit: Lol, yep, starting and finishing journey at Gleneagles costs £36.20 more than starting and finishing 10 minutes further along at Dunblane. Guess wifey will be driving me to Dunblane and back then! 😂
Despite having bookings.
We had this last year. Booked on Stirling-Perth train and when we went to get on we were refused on. The other 4 riders were adamant they had 'booked the train' - and simply got on right before us at Stirling and the guard was not up for an argument.
My son has also had a few wobbles on Edinburgh-Dunblane with a bike as well at a weekend - far too many bikes on a Friday evening or Sunday afternoon. So much so that if he has his bike we drive him home now.
will be driving me to Dunblane and back then!
Did you just call Dunblane cheap? 😆
Careful with CityLink. Driver had an argument with me about my bike booking from First William to Inverness. Stated that I needed the bike in a bag that I had to provide. Pointed out the sock thing which they are supposed to provide but he moaned that they didn't have any on the bus. Eventually got it on after showing my booking and the terms on their website.
I complained to CityLink and Hitrans. Neither were interested and just stated that bike carriage is up to the driver and other passengers come first. They basically care more about the risk of other passengers suitcases getting dirty than hounouring the service they publicise on their website.
Years ago on a course in London I bought a bike from Evans.
Needed to get back up to Aylesbury so I asked Evans to box it and then got a black cab over to Marylebone with it and then walked/pulled the box onto the train.
Got some strange looks as it was a peak hour train, which bikes aren't allowed on and it was a Specialized bike with the picture of a bike on the side. No rule against large packages 🙂
My one experience of modern times was doing the Badger Divide and my timetable was totally dictated by getting a space on a train. My 29 HT then totally filled the 2-bike compartment.
My 29 HT then totally filled the 2-bike compartment.
Yep - anything other than a basic road bike and it simply won't fit in the bike cupboards that exist on a lot of trains.
Racks / mudguards, tyres wider than 2", bars wider than 50cm...it's not going in that space. It's like the space was designed by someone who's only ever had a bicycle described to them in a foreign language.
timetable was totally dictated by getting a space on a train
Yeah, I'll concede that maybe I should have allowed for travel days either side of my four days riding, suppose I should be grateful that I can even condense a reasonably ambitious 4 day trip AND train travel there and back into a Thursday - Sunday long weekend.
The other pain with the setup is lets say for example you want to get from Point A to Point B and that involves 10 stations from start to finish.
You want to get on at station 1 and off at station 10
But if someone else has got in first and booked station 4 to station 6 and has taken all the bike spaces available, that makes it impossible for you to book on for your journey, despite there being space available barring a short period of the journey. It's a consequence of so few spaces being available.
Then they succumbed to some irrational thought and ordered the Azumas in which you’re lucky if you can store one bike in each of the two lockers as there’s fek all room inside.
LNER/ECML/whoever didnt order those trains, it was the DfT who ordered and specified them. The Operator had no choice, and TBF, they didnt want them, they cost double the 91’s + coaches, and they cost more to run, many of them have a diesel engine on board, which weigh 20+ tons, when the vast majority of the ECML is electrified, so they are using excess energy pulling that engine around when it is never required. The same goes with the Great Western, the same trains are used, it should have been elctrified to Swansea, but went on construction and cost over runs, so they stopped the wires at Cardiff, hence all trains need a diesel engine to get to Swansea. The DfT are useless, and the Government is as bad, in letting the Civil Servants who run the railways, carry on doing the damage they are doing.
It beggars belief, given the current situation with climate change that electrifying the rail network isn’t an urgent priority.
It beggars belief, given the current situation with climate change that electrifying the rail network isn’t an urgent priority.
Government don't give a flying **** about rail.
Network Rail (an arm's length Government consortium) are well known for wildly inflating costs so no-one in Treasury will ever sign off on anything due to it costing too much.
Whatever is done is only ever part done - the utter shitshow that is Platform 13 & 14 at Manchester Piccadilly was supposed to be sorted with the addition of 2 more platforms when they built the connecting route from Piccadilly to Victoria (the Ordsall Chord). But it wasn't so in building the connecting route, they've shoved twice the number of trains down the same 2 platforms which results in delays being exported all over the North West.
Train procurement works decades in advance via a complicated network of Government, operator, Network Rail, various passenger groups and of course train builders like Bombardier. It all gets very political - British trains should be built in Britain! - so when the contract gets awarded to someone in Sweden, all hell breaks loose. Then the trains are finally procured and ordered and - 8 years later - delivered except that the track hasn't been electrified, the operator has changed, the nation can't afford it any more, the platforms aren't long enough and the signalling won't work with that model of train.
(it's for similar reasons that the antiquated Pacer trains were kept on for about 20 years longer than anticipated...)
How it works at all is an absolute mystery to me and I spent 2.5 years quite heavily involved with some aspects of it. 😳
I was advised to buy my passenger ticket first then just wait until the bike space becomes available despite no way of reserving it, er no! I don't think so.
I'd happily pay extra for my bike.
Best bike provision I've seen was on a train to Carlisle that let us out our bikes in the mail carriage.
@munrobiker Latvia & Lithuania both run Russian gauge & loading gauge networks giving vast amounts of space onboard (you could easily carry a tank on a russian flatbed wagon).
I think every east coast azuma set has at least one diesel engine buried underfloor. The western region sets have three per 5-car set and 7 per 9-car set. Mind bogglingly complicated & supposedly not particularly reliable from a cooling perspective. Funny that. Who'd a thunked, it having to share space with transformers, traction motors, compressors fuel tanks, a fire suppression system, HVAC units, control gear a cooling pack and then isolate it all from the cabin might cause issues. It's almost as if they should have grouped all that together in one big vehicle at the end of the train. You could give it a funny name like "place motion maker". Might sound better in latin.
Government don’t give a flying **** about
railpublic transport.
Gravel bike with 42 mm tyres on an LNER Azuma in which I was told I MUST let the tyres down to ensure the bike fitted in the hook in the cupboard. Guard got off the train at Leeds having locked the bike cupboard - leaving me to walk the entire length of the train to find a cleaner to open the cupboard and remove my bike with flat tyres…
Complained to LNER and was told it was my fault for not having a road bike from the 1970s…
Northern, by comparison, love a bike.
Dunno, really grinds my gears though! I guess the fact they don’t have luggage/guard vans any more makes it tricky. You’d have thought that a combination of cycling + rail would be the ideal sustainable travel solution for many people but they literally make it as difficult as possible 🙄
I think there's a bit of trying to ride the virtuous coat-tails of commuter cycling.
Commuters generally can't take bikes on trains, they're not allowed*. That's why Bromptons and Boris bikes exist along with thousands of cycle tracks at Paddington. So saying that it's the "ideal sustainable transport solution" is akin to saying a kayak is and asking why the trains don't have kayak racks, it's a recreational need, not a "transport" need.
I'd like more bike space on trains, it'd be great personally. But I can see why for the greater good it's probably better to fill that space with another 6 seats and paying passengers, which means 6 fewer cars on the road, than make my one-off trip more convenient.
*yes you can book your bike onto the train from Harrogate to London, and not all cities band bikes, but that's the exception, I'm talking about the other 99% of commuters on local-ish services into towns where bikes are often banned at peak times to make room for standing passengers.
So saying that it’s the “ideal sustainable transport solution” is akin to saying a kayak is and asking why the trains don’t have kayak racks, it’s a recreational need, not a “transport” need.
You’re absolutely correct, due to all the train stations built adjacent to <checks notes> rivers…
But I can see why for the greater good it’s probably better to fill that space with another 6 seats and paying passengers, which means 6 fewer cars on the road<br />
Why can’t we have both?! Other countries do.
I like the solution in Italy. Ok the super fast intercities only allow fold up bikes or bikes in boxes, but the regional trains then have a huge amount of space (including ebike charging). Easy online booking.
I was advised to buy my passenger ticket first then just wait until the bike space becomes available despite no way of reserving it, er no! I don’t think so.
Yeah, I asked the lady on the phone if I could then get a refund on the train ticket if I couldn't reserve my bike once spaces became available, but that seemed to confuse her.
So meanwhile I wait an indeterminate amount of time until bike spaces become available, hoping all the while that the remaining accommodation spaces I need don't fill up (actually I might as well book what I can where fully refundable...).
MrsPB and I recently did a 10 hour train journey from home in Southern Cataluña to Cordoba, the bikes had to be bagged with wheels off. As we were riding home from Cordoba, we used some thin plastic sheeting. The bikes travelled free but had to be pre-booked but when we boarded the train, there didn't seem to be any provision for them. The train manager told us to take them into the first class carriage where they were placed on the seats! I tried to blag seats with them but he wouldn't play ball and we had to return to cattle class. Not bad for the €25 each we paid for the 750km trip. The return took us 5 days riding on gravel trails and disused railway line, a grand adventure.
utter bollocks 🙄 Using that logic, all recreational car journeys should be banned. Recreation/holidaying is absolutely a need, and the idea that holidays contribute nothing to the economy is absolutely ridiculous - some areas survive purely on recreation spending.it’s a recreational need, not a “transport” need.
I’m talking about the other 99% of commuters on local-ish services into towns where bikes are often banned at peak times to make room for standing passengers.
Not true. There's a significant demand, and usage, of bikes in all of the train stations I use to travel at commuting times.
On the midlands main line the big problem is that a) EMR make you fill in a form, wait ages for it to be processed and then collect a ticket whereas e.g. cross country is a simple Facebook message with <2 minutes to sort it and b) the bike spaces are in the driver's escape route, so they strictly enforce the 2 bike limit if first class is at the back(putting the bikes at the front), but dgas if first class is at the front, putting the bike carriage at the back. It makes I super stressful not knowing if I'll get on My train home... however my record is being 1 of 9 bikes in the 2 bike space 😂
Anyway, for the OP I'd recommend just going into a station and booking it in person for a 1 off trip like that.
We can't even carry passengers effectively so it's a long way off hoping for good bike provision!
Travelling in winter, with a Brompton - you are OK, but I wouldn't try much more than that.
I'll play devils advocate. Why would the companies bother? Very little in it for them.
I'm an infrequent train passenger and still see several trains cancelled, these are not local ones but cross country ones where I have a seat reserved.
Trains are regularly late too.
It's all a bit sad really, how we can't make our railways function properly. There is definitely a market for using trains.
Same with the NHS, post office, etc.... 😢
How about removing all the seats from half a carriage and then adding a portion of fold down seats.
This would allow plenty more people (albeit standing) and bikes. This would actually allow more people on the trains!
How about removing all the seats from half a carriage and then adding a portion of fold down seats.
that's how it works here in Northern Ireland on Translink trains, a section at each end of the three-car unit (4000 series) is dedicated to bikes but with folding seats, unfortunately for us though bikes cannot be carried before 09.30hr, which limits cycle commuting.
This is a Translink trains bike-space:
I’ll play devils advocate. Why would the companies bother? Very little in it for them
Agreed, but the clue should be in the name e.g. PUBLIC transport, as in it should be a public service provided by the government, which ideally would be designed to facilitate people leaving the car at home etc. etc.
Edit: oh and of course at this rate they are potentially missing out on between £100 and £140 of my custom on non-peak time services which presumably they want