[Closed] We loose yet another one to a lorry

A death in Southampton last week on Thomas Lewis Way by the Shell garage in broad daylight in the middle of the day. Nothing really reported on the circumstances so no indication of fault but something has gone badly wrong. Police motorcyclist killed along there just a few months ago.

People still driving down there like total tools at 60 (40limit). Got aggresively overtaken through the accidentvsite the night after it happened and I was in the car. Oil granules still on the road and crash call signs on the lamp posts. I reckon 25% of the drivers on the south's roads have no place behind the wheel of a car on attitude alone.

Its time to blitz that road over and over with speed cameras and traffic units until the message sinks in.

The reality though, is they are not. So who is going to vote for a Government who is saying 'You are not good enough and therefore we need to control you more.'

thats exactly my point though, we shouldn't be thinking about how impossible it is that anyone would vote in a government that says that, we should be thinking about how to drive that change from within the general populace, to get to the point where people realise that things need to change, start to enact that change and demand the government support it, rather than hoping for a government to do it for us.

I agree that Public Opinion does need to be changed but where to start? Our own children? Our friends and relatives?

Yes, absolutely, start local, it will take time, lots of time, but I believe it can happen.

Road safety groups, childrens societies, cycling societies, schools, business, community groups etc, everyone needs to unite on this, the drive needs to come from the public, not the authorities and it's not just about cyclists, it's about road safety in general.

Personally, I think the driving test should be a lot harder (so that includes a lot of the IAM methodology) and there should be compulsory re-tests every 10-years.

I would support that too, but again, it's another initiative that would never happen from above, it would have to be pushed from below.

It's no going to happen though. There is the mindset that driving is a 'Human Right' and necessity rather than a privilege that comes with responsibilities.

I sincerely hope you are wrong, the cynic in me wants to agree, but I have to hold onto the hope that that mindset CAN change.

personally I recon the first step would be for all commercial vehicles to be fitted with a spy in the cab* (forward facing camera + camera on driver) that way the courts would have a far clearer view of what happened in the vent of an accident - as it stands we generally have a one sided version of events from the driver. At least with more camera evidence the courts would stand a better chance of making convictions for poor driving stick.

If found guilty the likes of Ray Wilkins & Frank Wrathall & any others like them need to be put behind bars for a very long time.

Thoughts to the family & friends 🙁

HoaratioHufanagel
No they aren't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_Road_Casualties_Great_Britain

those are numbers of road casualties...that is not the same as a measure of how dangerous the roads are.

In that same time huge numbers of people have removed themselves from the roadspace and this is a big part of why there has been a reduction in road casualties.

If there were still the same number of children walking or cyling to school today as there were in 1926 and the same number of pedestrians and cyclists going to work as there were in 1926 do you really think road traffic casualties would be where they are now.

Despite the effective abandonment of the roadspace by all of society except the motorist 2000 people still manage to get killed by motorists.

Less people being killed on roads does not mean roads are getting safer...just that motorists have less targets to aim at.

Isn't the whole point of governemnt to enact the will of the people?

The will of the people is to bring back hanging. On some things they need to ignore the will of the "people" and do what is best for them rather than what they want.

Yes, absolutely, start local, it will take time, lots of time, but I believe it can happen.

It took 10+ years for drink driving to become socially unacceptable. Bit less for seatbelts when the law about wearing those came into effect.

It'll take the same time with regards to mobile phone use (which in spite of the recently increased punishment is more rampant than ever).

I reckon it'll take 20 years to get to the point where driving is considered a privelege rather than a right, where courts actually give meaningful sentences to drivers who kill and where the rights of vulnerable road users are recognised in good quality road/infrastructure design.

It can be done and it must be pushed for at every opportunity. But it will take getting on for one generation.

[i] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero

It's got to start somewhere...
[/i]

Yes, and if I remember correctly a part of this was to ban motorcycles entirely:

http://www.roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/1198.html

And presumably if we banned cycling on roads that would also help reduce the accidents?

amedias, I think we're singing from the same hymn sheet. It would be great if 'the public' would have the will to vote for such changes.

Call me pessimistic on this subject.

Perhaps we do have to bring pressure as a 'minority' along with other groups.

Anyone fancy bridging the gap?

"Thats a good point, but all this forum could do is reach out a hand to cyclists forum's admin and ask if they pop a sticky link to this thread as we are here and wanting to discuss this topic."

http://www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=102239&start=150

In London, being a cyclist often feels like you're just another inconvenience, a fly that needs cleaning off a windscreen, to a van/lorry driver. Something thats just 'in the way'.

I know that most cyclists are also drivers, so most understand the difficulties of driving and watching out for cyclists. No we dont all understand big trucks, but we have in some way 'walked in the shoes' of a driver. I suspect very few truckers have walked in cyclist shoes.

The thought of 'standing up' in front of a truckers forum and getting abused doesnt appeal. What are you proposing Horatio?

And presumably if we banned cycling on roads that would also help reduce the accidents?

Probably, but that's going to have knock on consequences eleswhere (increased sedentary lifestyle, illegal cycling on public roads etc.) not sure it's practical to be honest. Just like I don't think banning motorcyles is practical (or reasonable for that matter).

I think the Swedish chap behind Vision Zero said that motorcycles would be discouraged over the long term and that there would come a poiint where they would be considered too unsafe by the general population, rather than an outright ban. The same could be said for bicycles. I doubt either proposal would get the support necessary to enact them though!

Useful to at least consider these things though, just because one or two comments seem unreasonable it doesn't mean the whole lot is.

The thought of 'standing up' in front of a truckers forum and getting abused doesnt appeal. What are you proposing Horatio?

I think i might put together a post at some point, but a bit busy today. I reckon its best to give it a bit of thought, as blaming each side is a bit pointless.

FWIW i work in the automotive industry (on driver assist stuff) and their goal IS zero deaths, for any car sold with the safety stuff fitted. Mostly through the same technology used for autonomous driving, though the driver retains ultimate responsibility.

The engineers see every single death as avoidable, whether its down to human behaviour (about 95% of the time), mechnical faults or just unforseen accidents.

However, its currently very difficult to get this stuff fitted to protect cyclists due to the deeply ingrained view its their fault (just scroll through the lorry driver comments). As long as this view remains, government will be very reluctant to introduce legislation, and private companies aren't interested.

Drivers will feel as if its unfair as they are burdoned with costs and responsibilities whilst the "law-breaking" cyclists continue unchecked.

The use of blind spot cameras is very common off-road in quaries and the like, even on the rear of bin lorries (where its their own employees at risk).

Getting them used on the road is more difficult.

The (really quite sensible) recommendations of the [i]Get Britain Cycling Report[/i] are going to be debated in the House of Commons on the 2nd of September.

[b]Write to your MP, tell them your views and ask them to attend the debate.[/b]

The Times has a page to make writing to them a bit easier:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/pledge/ (step 3)

.

Oh and for the OP: [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-loose-is-the-opposite-of-tight ]an important PSA that you may have missed[/url]. 😀

That thread on the truck forum is pretty scary...

There's a lot of well meaning, open minded and intelligent posts on there, but there's a also few really properly disgusting comments which bring a chill when you realise that people with those attitudes (no matter how much of a minority) are in charge of such vehicles.

And there's a lot of 'my roads' style stuff on there too rather than 'our roads'

I cycle every day in central London. I apply a good sense of paranoia to the highway code when I use the roads. I assume everyone is trying to kill me. I do not take any risks.

A noisy minority on this forum seem to advocate the opposite. "I'm vulnerable so it's up to everyone else, and the law had better catch up soon etc etc."

I often see cyclists confused at "weird" choices motorcycles make in traffic where they share common space and speed. But the biker has seen the junction, the indicator, the driver's head movement, the gap left in a queue. But then again how are cyclists supposed to learn this stuff? Would a few ad campaigns be enough?

You're vulnerable, so you need to look out for yourself. No point worrying if that's how it should be, that's how it is.

We do need to look out for ourselves - but I disagree there is no point worrying about how it is.

To draw an deliberately emotive parallel: women should be careful to keep an eye on their drinks in clubs and make sure they don't walk home alone at night.

But that doesn't mean we don't need the laws against sexual assault or that women should just be quiet and put up with that risk.

No point worrying if that's how it should be

Why not? if it's wrong then it needs addressing, not ignoring. What you're saying there is that the motorcycling groups have given up on treating the disease and are just trying to lessen the symptoms, I don't believe that is true at all, but that's how your interpretation sounds.

It is absolutely right to teach people to be safe and look after themselves, but that doesn't have to mean ignoring other ways to improve safety.

"I'm vulnerable so it's up to everyone else, and the law had better catch up soon etc etc."

no no no, that's not what its about, it's about making the drivers realise you are vulnerable [i][b]as well[/b][/i] as making cyclist realise it and not putting themselves in danger, so that we all can get along and [i][b]share [/b][/i]the space.

The law does need to catch up with regards to appropriate justice when things go wrong, but the end goal is not to give cyclists carte blanch to say 'I'm vulnerable, so its your job to keep me safe'

It is not solely one groups responsibility, its the responsibility of all to keep safe and also make sure you're not causing a danger.

But then again how are cyclists supposed to learn this stuff? Would a few ad campaigns be enough?

no, but its a start, other options are to get it drummed into kids when they first learn to ride, and at school/bikeability etc, as well as trying to teach adults through community groups in conjunction with local authorities and businesses.

There is much that can be done, and much that should be done, cyclist training is very much one of those things, what is missing is focus and co-operation.

if I'm honest I think there is a social change coming, at least I hope so, where the critical mass of people now adopting bikes as a transport method forces the social acceptance of cyclists and adoption of a more positive attitude towards them on the road.

I think, as 'early adoptors' we should continue to push, and pull people into understanding.

Carrot and stick.

I will write to my MP about the debate.

And Horatio I will support you in a balanced, reasoned and dare I say gentle, forum debate with the truckers if you'd like. I am sure some truckers will be aggressive on this topic but I will try and bite my tongue and reply sensibily when it happens.

I still recomend that riding a bike into a city at rush hour, should be part of the drivers test, or even the truckers HGV test.

I still recomend that riding a bike into a city at rush hour, should be part of the drivers test, or even the truckers HGV test.

An interesting point someone made to me the other day is that what might be required is an extension of 'driving test' to be more like a concept of 'road using test'

ie: to widen the perspective to include other types of vehicle, and not just recognising how to drive a car well and anticipate hazards to a car driver but to a wider understanding of how different vehicles interact with each other and how the environment shifts with different viewpoints

amedias, sounds interesting and I'm sure it would help even cyclists to sit in a cab of a truck in rush hour and 'feel' what its like. like i said understanding on both sides... but more from drivers as they are the ones in charge of tonnes of lethal metal and not usually also cyclists.. most cyclists are drivers to some degree.

I'm sure it would help even cyclists to sit in a cab of a truck in rush hour and 'feel' what its like.

I've never really understood that one. Demonstrations of how many blind spots a truck has and how little you can see from the can just make me think "So why the hell do we let that thing drive through busy city streets at rush hour??"

It's like saying "Look how remarkably dangerous it is when I am blindfolded and wave around this massive sword. Everyone should stay out my way as I walk down the street."

personally I recon the first step would be for all commercial vehicles to be fitted with a spy in the cab* as it stands we generally have a one sided version of events from the driver. At least with more camera evidence the courts would stand a better chance of making convictions for poor driving stick.

Graham, and there's the problem, I'm sure most truckers would ask the same, why should I ride a bike to see how it feels. It's time to help each other. Not continue the same fickle defence! 😉

I see your point ti_pin_man, but I'm aware of those truck blind spots. I've seen the photos and videos with a dozen cyclists all invisible to the driver.

But I can't help thinking that they just show why HGVs shouldn't be allowed on busy city streets.
HGVs make up 5% of traffic in London but are involved in half of the cyclist deaths!

They have very limited visibility and minimal protection for other road users.
In a works yard, where Health and Safety applies, they drive slowly and require multiple people to assist them moving around. But as soon as they leave the yard that disappears and they can drive freely through busy city streets.

That's just daft.

I see your point Graham (and to a large degree I support it), and while we as a society ponder the impact of removing vehicles like that from certain areas it can't hurt to raise awareness and improve understanding for anyone that has to interact with them.

Even IF they were banned from town centres during hours X - Y or whatever, there would still come a time when they would be there, for special occasions, or in other hours, and it still makes sense that other road users understand the dangers involved.

You do, I do, many simply don't because they've never thought about it or never been shown.

Needs effort and understanding on both sides.

For balance (puts on flame suit) and both a person that commutes to and from work by bike along a busy dual carriageway them get to work I then drive a 44tonne truck do I see both sides of the argument.

But as for banning large vehicles from busy areas at certain times is a stupid idea. I cycle to work and I know a lorry or van can't see me so I stay well begins at the lights as i've got more brains than to put myself at danger.

If saving yourself 30 seconds by skipping up on the inside of a large or any vehicle then I think you are a contender for a Darwin award.

Fair enough that collision in Cornwall was tragic and I can't stick up for the driver there but when the cyclist has under taken a large vehicle then it's the cyclists fault and whatever the outcome is the result of their own idiotic/suicidal decision.

These stories are getting more regular and yet the cyclist is still chancing their lives by still doing it.
A couple of quotes from [url= http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/bexley/10092005.Belvedere_pupils_amazed_as_40_tonne_truck_comes_to_playground/ ]Here[/url]

"When I sat in the truck with the engine running I couldn’t see or hear any of my friends outside, even when the whole class shouted as loud as they could!”

how big the lorry’s blind spot was by fitting 28 children in it.

I drove the company sprinter van the other day and the blind spot on that was surprising as I couldn't see a freelander on my nr side.

heed the warnings and stay safe.

it's the cyclists fault and whatever the outcome is the result of their own idiotic/suicidal decision.

I don't think they do it realising the blind spot and risk.

But as for banning large vehicles from busy areas at certain times is a stupid idea

No, it's a great idea, and not just from a road safety perspective, from a congestion and road longevity POV it makes good sense. Most urban roads were not built to accomodate the behemoths we have on the roads these days. Trunkroads and motoroways were. Using distribution centres outside of urban areas reduces costs, improves safety and is better for society and the environment.

It's only the haulage industry's outdated views and modes of operation that keep it from happening on a bigger scale, never understood why they aren't keen to change: it would make so much sense longer term. But then, the movement of goods in Britain is pretty inefficient anyway.

I don't think they do it realising the blind spot and risk.

It's a very harsh punishment for a mistake that is very easy to make (and sometimes encouraged due to road engineering/marking). Undeserving of the Darwin award I think.

But as for banning large vehicles from busy areas at certain times is a stupid idea.

Why's that then? Other countries do it quite successfully.
In fact some enlightened countries manage to exclude motor traffic completely from city centres.

To go back to my previous metaphor: if I was swinging a sword blindfolded in a busy street, is it better to warn people not to get too close to me, or suggest that I might want to do it somewhere quieter, or at the very least [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/mar/19/cyclist-friendly-lorry-design-accidents ]take the blindfold off[/url]?

If saving yourself 30 seconds by skipping up on the inside of a large or any vehicle then I think you are a contender for a Darwin award.

Three points:

firstly, the bike lanes that are painted on the road specifically to help cyclists (particularly novices) always go up the inside. So there is a definite issue of mixed messages there.

secondly, it is very misleading to assume that [i]every[/i] cyclist killed by a lorry was trying to go up the inside. There are plenty of cases of cyclists being struck from behind or being squashed by a lane change or bad overtake.

thirdly, in many ways it doesn't matter whose "fault" it is. People will make mistakes. We should do all we can to reduce the number of mistakes and avoid the consequences being fatal.

have any more details emerged about the Holborn incident?

+3 for your 3 points Graham

> Road design makes things worse in many cases and actively encourages dangerous behaviour, often without the person realising it

> Often its the overtake and left turn that claims them, or a cyclist wh was already in position and then found a large vehicle alongside them and nowhere to go, or sadly sometimes they just dont know that its a dangerous place to be, often due to point 1!

> mistakes happen, the goal should be to reduce them through better understanding and to make them less likely to result in death wehn they do happen.

If saving yourself 30 seconds by skipping up on the inside of a large or any vehicle then I think you are a contender for a Darwin award.

We have conflicting messages for cyclists at the moment. "Don't go up the inside of lorries" and "stay in the gutter where you belong". The latter is implicit in the ridiculously narrow bits of painted lane that pass for 'cycle infrastructure' in most places, and that lead into ASLs. If a 50cm wide painted lane is what you're meant to be in why wouldn't you go up a similar gap? I had some idiot woman on her horn and shouting out of her car window earlier this week "Get out of the middle of the road, you should be on the left, that's where the cycle lane would be" if there was one, in the doorzone, so that you can squeeze past dangerously close as the road narrows. So that you can get around the corner to stop on the 'no stopping' lines to let your kids out to go to the school.

The nature of traffic in London means you can't avoid being on the inside of lorries at times - what are you meant to do if you're in a narrow marked lane and a truck pulls alongside?

But as for banning large vehicles from busy areas at certain times is a stupid idea

The more I mull this over, the more apathetic I'm getting to talking about it, this isnt good. We can talk about it till the cows come home but what can we do to actually change anything?
I wrote a letter to my mp, via the Thimes link at the top. Vince Cable hmm. lol. But what else can we actually do to help this problem?

Any of these incidents due to silly cyclists going up the inside of HGVs?

(warning: some entirely understandable swearing on the soundtracks)

But what else can we actually do to help this problem?

The last two deaths in London have resulted in [url= http://waronthemotorist.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/what-do-we-want-marginal-gains/ ]people taking to the streets for flash protests[/url]. Perhaps we are heading towards the same kind of atmosphere as the [url= http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/how-the-dutch-got-their-cycling-infrastructure/ ]"Stop De Kindermoord"[/url] that woke up the Dutch?

Sad that it takes deaths for action to happen though - the hidden reality people are dying every day by [b]not[/b] cycling and choosing sedentary lifestyles.

I've been in that kind of situation a few times myself.

But what can we do about it? Seriously, how do we change things?

ti_pin_man do not lose hope!

what else can you do?

> get involved with your local cycling groups
> community groups, youth groups, scouts etc
> talk to headteachers of local schools about what they are doing
> talk to local business groups
> your local council will have transport officers
> write to the national groups, sustrans, CTC, BC etc
> talk to your local paper about it

it starts local and it starts with noise, raising awareness, getting it into the forefront of peoples minds. If you ask all the above what they are doing then you will get one of 3 outcomes

1> they're doing nothing
- ask why! ask that they do, suggest things
2> they're doing something
- support them and get involved
3> they're doing loads!
- again support them, spread the word, you might even get more ideas!

Boris is having one of his Twitter #AskBoris sessions at 12.30pm today.
I suspect that might be getting a lot of cyclists asking questions...

Use @MayorOfLondon and #AskBoris

All good suggestions amedias.

For my part I am:

- supporting The Times / Get Britain Cycling effort by [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-please-sign-the-get-britain-cycling-e-petition-1 ]signing the e-petition[/url], writing to my MP and encouraging others to do so.

- making a monthly donation to Sustrans

- offering my time as a Volunteer Ranger for Sustrans

- a member of the CTC

- a member of my local campaign: [url= http://newcycling.org/ ]Newcastle Cycle Campaign[/url]

- and of course discussing the issues with fellow cyclists on here 😀

good on you Graham 🙂

CTC + BC + Sustrans member here too, also work with a local bike charity and a load of the local Bikeability guys, both with links to the Council's and University's Sustainable Transport people,

I think what needs to happen is that we need to get to the stage where this is an issue for the general public, not just the normal cycling die-hards bleating on (like us!), I think getting local community groups and business on side is key to it...

Imagine the impact of all the local schools, scout groups, inner city businesses (with cycle-commuting employees), parents groups etc ALL pushing for improvements to safety for their children, families, employees etc.

I fear at the moment it's too much of an 'us and them' style thing with people still seeing 'cyclists' and not 'people I know who ride bikes'

GrahamS: Just joined the Newcastle Cycle Campaign, thanks for the reminder.

By the by, if you see a scruffy bespectacled fellow on a green Genesis CX bike on the run into/out of town that'll be me, we moved out to wylam last month.

Agreed - locally we have tried to shift a bit of focus towards "Liveable Streets"

i.e. making streets that are nicer places to live, work and shop for everyone.

lemonysam: I did see someone the other day and wondered if it might be you. [i]"Are you that bloke off the internet?"[/i] is always a difficult question to ask though 😀

I'm the bloke on the black Rose CX bike, black helmet, red face. Mugshot in my profile

If you come to the campaign members meeting (next one is 10th Sept) then do say "Hi". Or I've just started joining the monthly social ride from [url= http://www.thecyclehub.org/ ]The Cycle Hub[/url] (2nd Sat of the month).

Also if you Facebook then you might want to join these groups:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/146219282223823/

If there is a cycle Lane or cycle box I stay out in any vehicle I'm driving. If I have overtaken a cyclist and there is no cycle Lane I close the gap between my vehicle and the kerb. Not out of ignorance but for their safety. If there is no gap they can't sneak into my blind spot.

If I overtake a cyclist I give them at least 4' of clearance so even when overtaking they are still visible to me for most of the manoeuvre thus protecting us both. Rather than the 4mm given to me by a learner last night on the dual carriageway. (yes I know learners have to start somewhere but it was with a credited driving school and the instructors responsibility)

As for lorry bans in the city if they can only go in and out at certain times means that there must still be people in them areas to accept them deliveries so it's Ok for the people who have to work late to get squished?

Also the tipper lorry scenario. .. Obviously delivering to a building site. If you lived next door to that sore would you be happy about building works all through the night?
As for presuming cyclists undertaking I see it day in day out so my initial point still stands.

As for lorry bans in the city if they can only go in and out at certain times means that there must still be people in them areas to accept them deliveries so it's Ok for the people who have to work late to get squished?

Well, if they used out-of-town distribution hubs and changed vehicles from HGVs to Transits then the vast majority of deliveries would occur by smaller vehicle. Those requiring larger vehicles would be operating on quieter roads, with fewer cyclists therefore less risk all around. I can't really see that being an argument that it's therefore okay to KSI shift workers.

Also the tipper lorry scenario. .. Obviously delivering to a building site. If you lived next door to that sore would you be happy about building works all through the night?

Those could easily be covered by traffic management plans, method of construction statements and on-site HSE requirements, hence operating in normal office hours.

I don't think a full lorry ban would work and there's always going to be exemptions and exceptions required. It does depend on the level of enforcement of any such ban and how serious the enforcers are about it. I think these kind of issues would be ironed out before the ban came into effect though. Much like the various exemptions for congestion zones/RUC zones.