There are loads of "standards" out there that seem to come about for no apparent reason. There are loads still out there for good reason. Then there's those that show promise, but are often unpopular for some reason...
Mostly they're unpopular cos they challenge what people are used to, but I'm interested to hear what you think are actually pretty good standards, that aren't popular in the mainstream... I'm imagining hearing lots of people say rapid rise (which I don't like at all!), 1.5" steerers etc etc.
My personal favourite that nobody else seems to like... Shimano Centrelock Rotors. It's so simple, so effective, so quick and easy to do up or undo, and yet everybody seems hell bent on sticking with 6 bolt which is far more hassle, and relies on the individual doing each bolt up evenly in turn otherwise they don't always run true.
Your thoughts...?
50mm headtubes- ugly but they're the standard that incorporates all other standards, not to mention allowing easy geometry-finagling.
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Shimano Centrelock Rotors.
Probably locked under patent...
Standard appears to be a little misused these days. Gets used instead of "Something I just Invented"
9mm RWS bolt thru hubs - fit standard dropout forks but are a bit tighter and stiffer and still allow you to swap wheels between different bikes. I'd love to know if there's an alternative to the very pricey DT Swiss RWS hubs and the Specialized Stouts.
25.4 bars (and obv stems)
20mm axles
Sub 100mm travel forks on hardtails
8 speed
1.5" headtubes look cumbersome but are the headtube of choice if you want complete freedom in choosing your fork.
12mm rear axles are a pain in theory but they make an awful lot of sense on the trail. Same for UST, Post Mount brakes and crud mounts.
shedfull, I'm with you there...
Yes there are alternatives, Hope do adapters to fit their Pro 2 hubs, Superstar Switch Evo's can be converted too. The thing that gets me is why is it 9mm for the front, but 10mm for the rear? 😕
Probably locked under patent...
Might be, but Formula, Avid/SRAM and others have licensed it in that case, as they do centrelock rotors themselves. As do DT of course, sat here with a DT240S hub I've just built for my bike, and it's a centrelock version (perhaps why it was so cheap)...
LOL @ Northwind's sketch. My thoughts entirely...
Ok, I'll be the first then!
Rapid rise... It just works so well. Yes you have to reprogram your brain a little but being able to drop a gear or two when powering up a hill out of the saddle is sooo worth it.
I never want to go back, if only they did a 10 speed.
Metric.
Surely that will never catch on. What's wrong with furlongs?
cetrelock is heavier and must lead to movement in the mounts. Its a crap idea. 6 bolt is far better
GW, why 25.4 bars and stems? I was a late converter, but lighter and stiffer is better IMO which 31.8 is. With you on the 20mm axles though, why Rockshox have suddenly gone 15mm on everything I don't know!
TJ, go on, explain how a centrelock setup leads to movement in the mounts? The rotors are slightly heavier I'll grant you, but then the hubs can be made a bit lighter to counter that cos they don't need a whacking great 6 bolt interface any more... The overall system weight is about the same for either.
31.8 is not lighter.
Check weights of every bar/stem that was ever available in both diameters if you don't believe me.
mboy - because you need the sliding clearance on the splines. this will always leave a tad of play and thus you need the nut bit (itself big and heavy) to tighten to gorilla tight to try to eliminate the slop
its all about ease of assembly / locking you into a proprietary system. NOthing to do with better qualities.
I have both ceterlock ad 6 bolt and given a free choice would have 6 bolt anyday
31.8 stiffer - but folk like carbon bars for their flex.
Motorcycles put far more stress thru thier bars and use skinnier ones.
6 bolt allows for the bolts to be replaced....
As I expect my hope hubs to last 10years I'd rather not replace them due to the brake interface wearing
I've been running Rapid Rise mechs for a while. It only makes sense if you use a thumb push for both up and down shifts, otherwise you can't easily shift to a lower gear while braking (unless you brake with your middle finger and shift with your index finger). I find using my thumb for both is a bit awkward so I'll be glad to see the back of my RR mechs - not sure why I bought into it originally, but after buying an XTR mech I got an LX RR mech when I got a second bike for the sake of consistency. Just replaced the LX one with a normal Ultegra mech so will have to live with my bikes shifting in different ways until I can afford to replace the XTR - could be annoying.
Love 1.5" head-tubes. Allows you to use any type of steerer or to use head angle changing cups. Look a little out of proportion on some bikes but on my beefy Intense Uzzi VPX anything else would look weird.
Also love 135mm x 12mm rear axles, which I have on the Intense and my Orange 5, but they do limit your choice of wheels a little.
26" wheels
Motorcycle bars, specifically motocross ones are a mere 22.2mm, but they have a cross brace which allows for more strength than diameter alone would suggest. Given that mountain bikers tend to like low rise bars, and balk at weight, cross braces just aren't an option, hence 25.4 and now 31.8. Also remember that while 31.8 bars might be heavier than 25.4, they will also be wider and stronger, and that's a trade off most people are willing to make, especially now that we can have carbon bars.
I wish that 12mm rear axles were on every bike, just for the peace of mind rather than any nebulous stiffness arguments.
Ive just reverted back to 25.4 bars and stem, I also have a set of club roost go fast risers with the brace. I run a RR rear mech too.
Std QR, 1 1/8.
eeeh, I remember when it was all cotter pins and osgears round here
what aracer said. 26" wheels only came about about because thats what were available in the dawn of the sport & now all these numpties claim that anything else that challenges the standard is just wrong.
Dual control.
I love my XTR dual control levers. Don't have RR on them though and it's great.
+1 aracer 🙂
rasinhat - many motorcycles use 22 mm bars without braces that are as wide if not wider than mountainbike bars
Remeber people buy carbon bars partly for the flex in them - and youdo not put huge loadins in steering input into bars
yes 31.8 are stiffer - but is this actually relevant in the real world?
Motorcycles are a totally pointless comparison because they don't need to be anything like as light as bikes.
The point is that the stiffness some folk find essential in an MTB is not an issue on a heavier machine that requires far greater steering inputs
TJ, Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn some spares for you 😆
I beam saddles/Posts.
9mm axles
5 arm cranks.
TandemJeremy - MemberThe point is that the stiffness some folk find essential in an MTB is not an issue on a heavier machine that requires far greater steering inputs
And you might have a point, if motorcycle handlebars were less stiff than mountain bike ones.
whitworth.
Whit/BSF, the joy of watching my brother with 25+ years experience of Pugs try to work with Whit on S1 landies:-) its not like i'd throw in AF reference as well:-) just to help.
took a bit of brain rewiring but love RR mechs
With the bar flex issue, I've always found the stem to be the weak link in the chain - if I ever use the cheap giant stem or weight weenie ritchey WCS stem on a build the bars flex horribly on climbs
I see no conceivable reason to move up from Std QR, or a 1 1/8 stearer. Unless you're hucking off the top of buildings. Or maybe just want to look like you do 😉
Rapid rise... It just works so well. Yes you have to reprogram your brain a little but being able to drop a gear or two when powering up a hill out of the saddle is sooo worth it.I never want to go back, if only they did a 10 speed.
+1, I ****ted my last one on a rock 🙁
It only makes sense if you use a thumb push for both up and down shifts, otherwise you can't easily shift to a lower gear while braking (unless you brake with your middle finger and shift with your index finger)
SRAM shifters solve this nicely, just a shame their mechs are cheese.
It's taking me ages to get my head arround shimano shifters again, they're just not right, and 'dual release' is useless as the lever pivots the wrong way so pushing with a thumb is just awquard.
TJ would have a point about motorcycle bars if they were't either practicaly solid with a cross brace (MX bars) compared to MTB bars to gain some stiffness or clip-ons 9your not going to make a 8" long 22mm tube bend however much you twist it).
Remeber people buy carbon bars partly for the flex in them - and youdo not put huge loadins in steering input into bars
No, I bought them:
* becasue they weighed less than 200g
* looked cool
* absorbed some vivration, theres a difference between a flexy material (Ti) and one that dampens the oscilations. Ride a bike with a long Ti seatpost and you'll see the difference, it's posile to make the post oscilate in time with your pedaling, carbon posts will flex just as much (if you build them to) but they don't give that energy back so it doesn't bob.
motorcycles put far more stress thru thier bars and use skinnier ones.
Find some 200g MX bars (not that i'd trust my wisers on an MX bike, but seeing as it's still me twisting them there's no obvious reason not to). I've never ridden MX but I put a lot more force through the bars on push bikes than I do road motorbikes, think of all the heaving you do standing up and sprinting, put that much force into a motorbike and you'd be in a hedge.
Back on topic:
Do old slide on grips count as a standard? I've recently gone back to foam slide on grips after years of lockons and it's a revelation in comfort.
TJ - do you know for a fact that th 22mm motorbike bars aren't stiffer than mtb 31.8 bars?
As for those centrelock discs that are so terrible: you've been using them for how long, without issue, and haven't changed them?
😀
26" wheels are unpopular?
I've got 31.8 and 25.4 bars. There is no discernible difference in flex (or weight) whatsoever.
I used to like my Dual Control shifter (rear - front was rubbish). But was quite happy to get rid of it when I needed new brakes.
I am pretty sure there is more metal thickness in my motorcycle bars than my MTB so i dont think you can really make a direct comparison.
26" wheels are unpopular?
Yeah so are 29" now, Its all about the 650b and 36ers
I am pretty sure there is more metal thickness in my motorcycle bars than my MTB so i dont think you can really make a direct comparison.
There is a difference in thickness in bars on my mtbs but I still compare them.
There is a difference in thickness in bars on my mtbs but I still compare them.
I think he was refering tot he fact that you can't buy 200g motorbike bars, but you can mountainbike. You can (and some dirt jumpers do) run cut down MX bars in a bmx stem, but they weight a lot!
I prefer the look of 25.4mm bars, 31.8 still looks too chunky to me. Can't say I've noticed much of a difference in stiffness between the two though.
Dual control.
I love my XTR dual control levers. Don't have RR on them though and it's great.
Went riding with someone who I wont name who was doing a long termer test for MBR, the bike had dual controls. He hated them and couldnt get on with them but in the spirit of the test couldn't change anything that wasn't broke - we did offer to make them not work again - he nearly went for it...
As for those harping on about QR I have seem my old QR 150mm bombers flex in the axle round rocks very off putting. 15/20mm is much better
BS EN ISO 9001:2008 is good as it helps to keep me employed
Centerlock brake rotor mounts are so much better than 6 bolt. Still they need to be to make the job of maintaining Shimano cup & Cone hubs more palatable.
cheers drive - why? do you think it better?
Quicker to bolt on/off, nothing negative about their use.
'dual release' is useless as the lever pivots the wrong way so pushing with a thumb is just awquard.
I find using my thumb to change up works just fine.
Quicker to bolt on/off
Because you change disc rotors a lot?
aracer - MemberQuicker to bolt on/off
Because you change disc rotors a lot?
Quiet day? 🙄
centre lock requires a special tool and needs to be done up gorilla tight to avoid slop meaning the special tool has to be held on with a qr or bolt and a big spanner to undo it, 6 bolt requires a standard allen key and is not done to ridiculous tightness so is easy to remove so long as you coppaslip the bolts.
6 bolt easier to undo, lighter, cheaper, simpler,
i beam saddles and rapid rise mechs for me and crank bros pedals!!!!!
i also have a mix of 31.8 and 25.4 bars on my bikes and dont notice any differences
6 bolt requires a standard allen key
Nope.
I find using my thumb to change up works just fine.
Maybe it's just being used to SRAM then, the SRAM felt intuitive, the shimano one I still can't figure out if i'm supposed to be reaching under/over/arround the big paddle. And when I get my thumb to it, it's moving at 90deg to the direction I want to push my thumb.
6 bolt requires a standard allen key
Nope.
I've soem that take allen keys, some use torx, either way there's one on my multitool, there's not a casset lockring tool!
TandemJeremy - Member
6 bolt easier to undo, lighter, cheaper, simpler,
Plenty of folk round the bolts or have them seize. Avoidable, but it still happens. Not always heavier or more expensive either, and "simpler" is up for discussion also.
No such issues with centrelock, which does not need to be done up "gorilla tight" either.
In use they both work fine.
<Jazz Club>
Nuages
</Jazz Club>
6 bolt requires a standard allen key
Nope.
Depends I think is correct - I have both Allen and Torx screws holding on 6 bolt rotors, bet someone has got plain old little bolts forced by an emergency and only Wickes being open or something.
If centrelock was free, Id have it. As it is, I'd need eight new hubs and eight new rotors, and they'd have to be shimano (shit) or DT (expensive) hubs.
I-Beam - I liked this until I discovered the Reverb.
1.5" Steerer Stuff - I like having my tough frames with 1.5" headtubes as I've managed to buy the following cheap:
Forks: Manitou Travis, Fox 36 Float RC2, Marz 55 RC3 Ti
Stems: Thompson Stems x 2, Gravity Lite, Truvativ Holzfeller
Headsets: Chris King x2
Hammerschmidt is another unpopular "standard" I like 8)
Ran rapid rise for a couple of years, now back to 'normal'.
Don't pay attention to the wheel sizes, have they changed? 😀
centre lock requires a special tool
Tell me, what of this "special tool"??? 😕
Personally, I like I suspect everyone else, just use a Cassette removal tool, which I already had anyway, as does everyone else I know, as this is what Shimano designed it to be used with.
Oh, and you mentioned about the enormous weight of the nut that is used to hold the rotor on... I was bored last night, and had one in front of me... How heavy? 10 whole frigging grammes! That's massive that is TJ... HUGE in fact!
The nut does need to be done up pretty tight (30-40Nm iirc) to stop any slop, but that's a piece of the proverbial given my cassette removal tool fits directly on a 1/2" drive ratchet, a pretty long lever in itself, the other "lever" being the outside diameter of the wheel. In use I've never once noticed any slop when everything is assembled correctly, and never had any troubles fitting or removing them.
Also, another reason why centrelock is better in general... The rotors are stiffer! They all have this nice ally spider which is several mm thick, onto which the stainless rotor bit is pinned. They are much more difficult to bend than a conventional 2mm thick stainless 6 bolt rotor.
On the carbon bars front... People DO NOT buy carbon bars because they flex! You been sniffing something? People buy carbon bars either cos they're lighter for the same (or greater) stifness, or for their slight vibration damping properties. Of course you could make carbon bars flexy if you wanted to, but I've owned a couple of sets of Easton carbon bars in the past, and flexy is not a word I'd use to describe them!
On the argument about motorcycle bars Vs MTB bars. Like TINAS, I put a lot more force through my MTB bars than I ever have done riding any motorbike (though I don't ride MX granted), it's nothing to do with how much force you apply through steering input, it's more to do with the repetitive harsh blows you keep incurring. I've hit a number of potholes at speed on a motorbike, but then it's also got a 120mm wide front tyre and 5" travel forks to help there, my MTB might have the same fork travel but its tyre is less than half the width (ergo 1/4 of the volume) and I hit obstacles much bigger than a pothole on it frequently. 22mm bars on motorbikes is a bit of a hangover, as on MX bikes they run them with a brace anyway (and about 5mm wall thickness) and the extra weight on a motorbike is largely inconsequential. Clipons on a road bike anyway are so short they're stiff enough regardless, but a set of Renthal MX bars is say 600g or so, whereas the equivalent MTB bar with 31.8 bulge in the middle can be as stiff and strong yet will have half the wall thickness and weigh approx 300g. Would you notice a 300g weight saving on an MX bike? I doubt it... And that's the point...
I wish that 12mm rear axles were on every bike, just for the peace of mind rather than any nebulous stiffness arguments.
Inclined to agree actually, having had QR wheels done up very tight, fall out of the dropouts on one bike before! Couldn't work out why either, think it was a shoddy QR skewer... Anyway, now that Maxle and all its variants are here, a bolt through rear is no slower than QR IMO so bring it on!
I see no conceivable reason to move up from Std QR, or a 1 1/8 stearer. Unless you're hucking off the top of buildings. Or maybe just want to look like you do
I've noticed big differences before going from QR fork to 20mm axle, even on short travel forks. I wouldn't run a QR fork again personally. I'm less convinced on the larger steerer front though, mainly cos what's the point in having a whacking great steerer tube, but then a really thin crown with two relatively spindly 32mm stanchions coming out of it? Bigger stanchions would be required to get the required stifness, but that adds weight/cost/friction etc. and also looks out of proportion on anything short of a freeride bike.
Anyway... Let the [s]argument[/s] [i]discussion[/i] carry on... 😉
Love Rapid Rise. Changing to easier gears under load really works for me
Will hang onto 9 speed as long as I can for that reason
Personally, I like I suspect everyone else, just use a Cassette removal tool, which I already had anyway, as does everyone else I know, as this is what Shimano designed it to be used with.
That's true, if you only use QR hubs, the 20mm ones have a different tool.
I'd quite like 142x12mm (or 135x12 as long as there's a lip to line the axle up with like forks) dropouts on my next bike whenever that happens, just looks like by far the best solution, and any stiffness is a bonus.
English threaded bottom brackets in proper metal frames.
I also like standard rear qr hubs.
And IS disc mounts.
the casette removal tool is the special tool. I have one cos I am a tool geek - although not every cassette tool will actually work cos of the internal diameter / depth - one of mine will not work with the centrelocks I have
as for bars - the
of carbon bars is flex.slight vibration damping properties
Can anyone honestly say they felt a 25.4 bar flex too much but a 31.8 didn't? I have never noticed flex in a bar that was detrimental
IS disc mounts? I agree - I far prefer them. slotted mounts upset me and using an adaptor and another pair of bolts does as well. Post mount is like fingernails on a blackboard to me unless you can direct mount and even that only turns the volume down.
as for bars - theslight vibration damping properties
of carbon bars is flex.
No there is a difference between damping and flex.
Metals generaly have some elasticity, and when the load is removed they give the energy back.
CFRP (or any other FRP) dampens this as the initial bending is the same as for the metal (but with a bit of damping as well, juast harder to notice/measure), but the 'rebound' is slowed so it doesn't vibrate.
Canyon have a good graphic on their site explaining the differences between their metal, CFRP and the bassalt fibre seatposts.
If you made a ruller from CFRP it wouldn't twang (as much as a plain plastic one) on the edge of a desk.
IS disc mounts
+1, once you got it right it never moved, and never needed adjuting, but like 6-bolt disks takes longer to build at the factory so died out. 🙁
That's true, if you only use QR hubs, the 20mm ones have a different tool.
Yes but a bottom bracket spanner is hardly obscure either.
I really like Centre lock rotors too.
They are a genuine impreovement over 6 bolts in terms of rotors stiffness and ease of removal. I'd have them on all my bikes if my hubs were compatible
They are a genuine impreovement over 6 bolts in terms of rotors stiffness
Genuine question, how are they stiffer and why does that make any difference?
square taper BB
8 speed
ceramic rims
basically I want to go back to 1997...
I have very low standards.. I'd probably be some sort of vagabond/hobo if Mrs Yunki would let me get away with it..
the smell alone would make me unpopular, never mind the inebriated threatening behaviour and casual criminality..
Genuine question, how are they stiffer and why does that make any difference?
Posted this above, but it's probably due to the ally spider that is several mm thick, mating with a nice fat splined interface. Only the pad track bit of a centrelock rotor needs to be stainless steel and 2mm thick, on XT and XTR at least, most of the rotor is ally and quite chunky and stiff. Ergo, much better.
Also, and I suspect I'm one of a very few here, but I've had a near disastrous issue with 6 bolt in the past. OK, I was doing a week's descending in Morzine/Les Gets, and riding a lot, on my 5" trail bike with only a 160mm rear rotor. Anyway, one day had been braking so hard for so long, I turned the rear rotor a bit blue. Cruising along the road after our final descent of the day, my mate notices my rear rotor is floating about, so yells me to stop. Turns out, I'd got everything so damned hot, the 6 bolt mount on the hub had obviously expanded somewhat as all the (threadlocked) bolts had come loose and nearly fallen out!!! 😯
OK, so that's an extreme situation, but I much prefer the design of centrelock cos it just seems like a much better engineering solution, rather than "it's what we've always had before so it must be alright" which is what 6 bolt is to me.
of carbon bars is flex.
I think you've been sniffing the resin they use to make the bars TJ! MASSIVE difference between their ability to absorb/dampen vibrations, and flex. It's the same difference between the spring and the damper on your suspension forks. Think of carbon bars as being a bit like a damper (though obviously much less effective) but without any spring. They don't move at all, not a bit, REALLY stiff in general in fact. But they can absorb small amounts of vibration.
It's the same on road bike frames. Why is Carbon so popular there? Firstly Carbon is so popular cos it's easy to make it very light, whilst still very stiff. Secondly cos it absorbs more vibration than ally does, and to an extent Ti and steel (though Ti and steel frames are inherently more flexy).
I'm with you on IS disc mounts though. Takes longer to set em up obviously, but once set, that's it. Done... No movement ever. Post mount (via an adapter!) is a backwards step IMO. Sure, it's quicker to get it somewhere near being right for a mechanic, but it's a poor solution long term. Annoys me that the whole market went this way!
Another one for Rapid Rise and Dual Control levers, got them on both my bikes and will be quite upset when I have to change them.
mboy in asking peoples opinions then arguing they are wrong shocker!!
Holy crap there's loads of weirdo's out there.
+1 for the dual control with rapid rise. XTR £90 for the set... "Get in there!!!!"
Something I never say when I am changing gear.
mboy in asking peoples opinions then arguing them of being wrong shocker!!
And...?
I started the thread to promote discussion... I find it interesting, but hey, you may not.
We each have our own preferences... But I also know why, in this case, TJ is wrong...
I'm not arguing about how rubbish I think rapid rise is, or SRAM mechs and shifters... That's all subjective.
Dual Control fan here too. Got them on my supermarket special 2007 Decathlon Rockrider 8.2 (2007 lx dual controls).
Lots of people slag them off, but I find them easy to use and never seem to accidently shift when braking, which seems to be the biggest comment/concern from riders who see my sporting them out on the trails.
TandemJeremy - MemberMotorcycles put far more stress thru thier bars and use skinnier ones
But then, a Renthal 7/8ths bar weighs more than twice as much as a mtb renthal bar, and 3 times as much as my monkeylite dhs.
9mm skraxle for front hub. Stiffer than a 9mm QR. Would be enough of an upgrade in stiffness for most trail riders instead of the newer 15mm standard.
I'd go for 15mm if buying a new bike at his point, though.
I switched from a set of 9mm qr forks to some 36s with a 20mm axle, and they're definitely much stiffer fore and aft. How much of that is due to bigger stanchions versus massive axle is debatable, but I find that the complete confidence that there is no way my wheel could possibly come out lets ride faster without those niggling little doubts in the back of my mind.
Open ended quick releases are just a bit sub-optimal for mountain biking, and I look forward to the days when they're a niche option only.
Open ended quick releases are just a bit sub-optimal for mountain biking
Nonsense!