[Closed] TUEs, WADA, Froome and Wiggo - what do people think?

Salbutamol orally as tablets or IV in big doses has a fat burning effect and a predictable and short half life/glow time. See the related compound clenbuterol...

He wont be taking systemic salbutamol.

You only need a TUE if you are likely to exceed a particular level if the banned substance. A pro cyclist can take Asthma medication without a tue. In the 2008 Olympic Games 29% of the cycling medals were won by athletes using asthma medication ( cycling weekly article 2015).

With Sky's marginal gains, I would've guessed they'd be pumped full of everything they can legally get away with. Or maybe that is all they can legally get away with in the case of TUEs before governing bodies raise eyebrows?

Or maybe they have lines they don't cross and like to keep it above board? Perhaps they do it perhaps they don't.

Like Froomes admitted use of tramadol during races?

Froome has been proven to bend the rules to get what he wants (hacking emails, pretending to be Kenyan cycling Fed, etc). The guy has previous.

Like Froomes admitted use of tramadol during races?

Froome was born on 20 May 1985 in Nairobi, Kenya,[3]

And not all Kenyan born British cyclists are successful.... 😳

You think use of an opiod pain medication is not for a performance benefit? Ha, keep sipping that fanboy koolaid.

You're completely missing the point, dual nationality doesn't explain hacking a federation email account to get yourself 'invited' to a race... Or maybe that's all above board and normal too.

And what about the proven doping doctors, nobody seems to be wanting to try and explain their involvement in things... Funny that.

Froome has been proven to bend the rules to get what he wants (hacking emails, pretending to be Kenyan cycling Fed, etc). The guy has previous.

I think masquerading as someone he wasn't in order to get an in to the UCI academy thingy in Switzerland and access to the world champs is hardly the same as doping. All it shows is that he wasn't prepared to wait for bureaucracy in Kenya to run its course before they could be bothered to get behind him if even they would at all. Loads of people have told little white lies to advance their careers, this isn't any different, there was no "hacking" (the connotations of that are a little stronger than guessing a password to a hotmail account). You're getting more trollish with each passing post.

The most frustrating thing for me is that cycling is the most transparent. Having gone from being a huge Pantani fan up to now, I too see any significant in race boost in performance as medically induced, has to be. I just enjoy the sport and try not to get bent out of shape about drugs anymore. The issue is the sports science guys/doctors always find a way around the banned substance list as its lucrative. Tennis, swimming football etc are just better at hiding it as event access is easier to manage i.e. a tennis pro is on court for a short time over a week, footballer on pitch 90 minutes. Tour cyclist covers thousands of miles over many weeks, getting gear to them is far harder!

Of course it's for a performance benefit. Noone would seriously dispute that. It's also entirely legal. No ifs, buts or grey areas, Tramadol is not on the proscribed list.

Two TUEs in nine years? He's hardly Lance Armstrong and you're making yourself look a bit paranoid metalheart.

Do you think it might be time you moved on from cycling to something you can believe in? Crop circles maybe?

OP - Please give us more detail on how you conflate the claims about Salazar's use of TUEs with that revealed in these leaks?

Or were you wanting us to do the actual research?

keep sipping that fanboy koolaid.

You have smear and innuendo and then the cheek [ or possibly stupidity] to attack others position as if we are just ignoring your "evidence" because they are fans

if you can prove he is a cheat i will agree he is a cheat all you have proved so far is that you are a bit stupid and hold conclusions the evidence you present does not support

If anyone needs a PED its you FACEPALM

Personally i have never understood this hatred of Wiggins and Froome and why they always seem to be the centre of debate, you have Russia where there was systemic doping which has been clearly proven, and you have a team like Astana who have escaped somehow being thrown out of the World Tour despite being caught with riders on steroids to cocaine across their teams?

With regards to Froome's "sudden" transformation for the 2011 Vuelta, was it not the case that Sky and their ilk have access to the best sports scientists going and could identify that he naturally had a big engine and they sculpted him into a GT rider, the same team who took a powerful track/ time trial rider like Wiggins and could manage his weight loss so as to not affect his power output to greatly.

At the end of the day, around half of all grand tour riders have Exercised Induced Asthma (only surpassed by cross-country skiers i believe), it comes from repetitive exercise in cold air, add to the fact the huge stresses that riding a grand tour and training for one must have on the body, and there is going to be a need for asthma medication, anti-inflammatories etc, it just needs to be well controlled and disclosed, which is what i feel Froome has done, you can't do more than disclose it openly. He said at TdF this year that he had a chest infection towards the end, but took no medication due to the stick they get, yet how many Astana riders were there??

Indeed cycling has cleaned up its image and I do think we get clean winners now

if you want to llok at cheats we can see where they lie as noted above

Basically some folk will just think whoever is winning is a cheat because that used to be the truth. It's no longer the case but they cannot accept this so they clutch at straws to "prove" it.

I believe TUEs are regularly used to allow doping. The rates of "asthmatics" amongst elite atheletes simply are not believable - and salbutomol does give an advantage even if you are not ashtmatic in my view.

However I think Froome and certainly Wiggins are not huge offenders in this compared to what others have done

IIRC tramadol wasn't banned back then. So while it's a bad idea. It's not illegal.

And I suspect calling a couple of (allegedly very corrupt) volunteers a "federation" is pushing it.

Maybe metalheart is bitter because he could have made it if it wasn't for riders like Froome.......

tjagain - Member
I believe TUEs are regularly used to allow doping. The rates of "asthmatics" amongst elite atheletes simply are not believable - and salbutomol does give an advantage even if you are not ashtmatic in my view.

However I think Froome and certainly Wiggins are not huge offenders in this compared to what others have done

I think that you are confusing classic asthma with the condition Exercise Induced Asthma, they are different things really.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/28/asthma-elite-athletes-study-swimmers-cyclist-eid

and salbutomol does give an advantage even if you are not ashtmatic in my view.

I'm sorry but a bronchial dilator cannot dilate a non constricted bronchial. It's physically impossible. If you're experiencing an advantage the the chances are, you're asthmatic.

With that in mind, what is the specific advantage in your view? I hate the bloody stuff & wish I didn't have to take it; even in small amounts it makes me shake like a shitting dog. As for the "fat burning effects"; it's easier to either eat less to lose fat or maintain lean body tissue to maintain/raise metabolism than to rely on any latent effect of high dosage salbutamol.

Scud
No confusion here
Opinions were asked for,that's mine

I believe TUEs are regularly used to allow doping. The rates of "asthmatics" amongst elite atheletes simply are not believable - and salbutomol does give an advantage even if you are not ashtmatic in my view.

The one that could potentially be an interesting story are those that needed that heart drug, but their cardiac issues conveniently all cleared up on 31/12/2015.

OK Sharapova's didn't, because she and/or her doctor didn't pay close enough attention to the memo.

Seems to be mostly Russians that have tested positive, but would be interesting to compare that to TUEs before that WADA deadline. Maybe it was just the Russian doctor that didn't realise Meldonium has more than one name? and all other athletes of different nationalities had their coronary artery issues simultaneously clear up?

Taking a non banned substance is NOT doping

We all know there will be a grey line between supplement and PED but if you follow the rules you did not cheat

Blame the makers of the rules

Blame the makers of the rules

I kind of agree with you, but by way of offering an alternative perspective, would you make the same argument in defence of a large corporation (like Apple or Starbucks) or a wealthy individual using legal tax loopholes to minimise the amount of tax they have to pay?

It's the same moral principle if not the same literal thing.

Loads of people have told little white lies to advance their careers

Two TUEs in nine years? He's hardly Lance Armstrong and you're making yourself look a bit paranoid metalheart.

keep sipping that fanboy koolaid.
This is the level of debate you have to have with someone who has not got the facts to support their view

In [b]my opinion [/b]the use of a opioid pain killer for performance enhancement [i]is[/i] doping. It might not be an actual technical infringement of the anti-doping regulations but it sure as hell is unethical. Especially given SKY's anti-doping rhetoric. YMMV.

It's the same moral principle if not the same literal thing.

Thanks geetee, that's what I was getting at.

I'm sorry but a bronchial dilator cannot dilate a non constricted bronchial.

Try, but very few people have any 'non-constricted bronchioles'. Most biological systems including the lungs exist in a constantly varying state along a spectrum of constriction / dilatation. This is controlled by various hormones and nervous responses.

Asthma is just inappropriate (or, more accurately, exaggerated) bronchial constriction - either spontaneously or in response to something (exercise, cat fur, pollen, cold air etc). To get a diagnosis of asthma, you just have to prove that your lungs are more reactive than average, and the 'cut-off' that's frequently used is 10% variability in your peak flow. Putting aside the fact that peak flow is completely effort-dependent, most people will see *some* improvement in peak flow with bronchodilators. If that gives an athlete a 2-3% benefit (rather than 10%) in lung function (notwithstanding the potential positive effects of salbutamol on metabolism) then I can see it being quite attractive. It would be very straightforward for someone with motivation to get a diagnosis of asthma which would be extremely difficult for others to refute.

Basically, it's not quite as black-and-white as it may appear. WADA have, rightly or wrongly, allowed salbutamol in normal doses for a few years. This probably has the effect of levelling the playing field, rather than muddying the water. At least that's how i understand it.

To me, anybody who uncritically regurgitates the 'party line' (PR & fluff ) to me is sipping koolaid. Sorry if you find this offensive.

You Have not made me reevaluate this conclusion

Try, but very few people have any 'non-constricted bronchioles'. Most biological systems including the lungs exist in a constantly varying state along a spectrum of constriction / dilatation. This is controlled by various hormones and nervous responses.

Asthma is just inappropriate (or, more accurately, exaggerated) bronchial constriction - either spontaneously or in response to something (exercise, cat fur, pollen, cold air etc). To get a diagnosis of asthma, you just have to prove that your lungs are more reactive than average, and the 'cut-off' that's frequently used is 10% variability in your peak flow. Putting aside the fact that peak flow is completely effort-dependent, most people will see *some* improvement in peak flow with bronchodilators. If that gives an athlete a 2-3% benefit (rather than 10%) in lung function (notwithstanding the potential positive effects of salbutamol on metabolism) then I can see it being quite attractive. It would be very straightforward for someone with motivation to get a diagnosis of asthma which would be extremely difficult for others to refute.

Basically, it's not quite as black-and-white as it may appear. WADA have, rightly or wrongly, allowed salbutamol in normal doses for a few years. This probably has the effect of levelling the playing field, rather than muddying the water. At least that's how i understand it.

What sort of effect would this have, in percentage terms, for someone's VO2 max versus, for instance, the natural variation in haematocrit across the population?

would you make the same argument in defence of a large corporation (like Apple or Starbucks) or a wealthy individual using legal tax loopholes to minimise the amount of tax they have to pay?

Absolutely. Blame the makers of the rules. Apple and co are getting away without paying tax because taxation law allows them do that. I don't agree with what they are doing, and would not defend it, but I understand why they are doing it as a corporate entity trying to maximise their profits.

If it is not banned, athletes can use it.

I would, and have, made the same argument KCR. I was suggesting it to Junky because I think that might not be the case; I think that Junky's sense of moral purpose and correctness would argue the opposite; that it can be legally right but morally wrong.

If you use a TUE and in your own mind the main objective is performance gain even if you can medically justify it, then don't be surprised if people judge you harshly.

That said, my position on this is quite the reverse. I don't see why someone born with say a malformed hand but a VO2 max of 65 and an FTP of say 290 should be given quite so much attention and accolade for riding a bike fast and someone born with a VO2 max of say 30 and a trained FTP 240 watts (this is not me BTW) is completely ignored.

In my view, from a pure spectator/societeal perspective, sport is either genuinely elitist or you should allow everyone to everything available to them to level the playing field.

In the future genetic modification will completely level the playing field at which point all competitive sport will be pointless.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/wada-cyber-attack-raises-questions-for-sky-cycling-and-tue-system-at-large/

http://road.cc/content/news/117553-team-sky-riders-used-controversial-painkiller-tramadol-claims-ex-pro-michael

Have you taken tramadol metalheart? What is its performance enhancement? For me it makes me want to curl up in a happy ball and sleep. It knocks you sideways but is a very effective pain killer. Kind of a last resort thing and you will be working harder to ride on it.

Sometimes TUE's aren't used as a PED, but as a masking agent for PED's.

(genuine question) What could Asthma medication mask?

I'd be interested to know if that's still true.

I remember Pedro Delgado testing positive for Probenecid in '88, which was apparently a recognised masking agent, but is there actually anything you can take these days that can specifically be used to mask a performance enhancer?

If masking via TUE is possible, common sense would suggest lots of people would be using TUEs, but as noted previously, the total number of TUEs issued to cyclists is pretty small (13 last year: http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/therapeutic-use-exemptions/).

mikewsmith - Member

What is its performance enhancement?

Excellently mental dreams.

OK so, surely the real story here isn't about TUEs or Froome or any of that; it's about the way that all these athletes are required to constantly feed doping authorities enormous amounts of detail about their lives, and WADA can't be trusted to look after it.

Do WADA get access to the whole UKAD records system- the location tracking etc?

@mikesmith: from that Barry link above (seens as you obvs can't be bothered to click on it 😉 )

“The effects are noticeable very quickly. Tramadol made me feel euphoric, but it’s also very hard to focus. It kills the pain in your legs and you can push really hard.

“After I crashed in the Tour de France I was taking it, but I stopped after four days, because it allows you to push beyond your natural pain limit.”

@Northwind: I think one of the main problems (alluded to in the cyclingnews link above) is that the UCI only pursue cast iron cases that they know they can win. So anybody that just 'looks' a bit dodgy passport wise isn't necessarily pursued... I mean Lances comeback bloods were supposed to be dodgy enough for USADA to use as 'in' to bring him down (most of his tour wins being past the SOL) yet the UCI never raised a murmur. How could that even happen? Nothing!

I'd say that allows a doper to dope within limits (bandwidth doping you call it) and as long as it doesn't show a real spike (which makes missing tests suspicious, read Hamiltons book for more detail). This stops the obvious excesses of the past but a good responder could dope within the limits and get a sufficient advantage over others accordingly.

This coupled with I've picked up (rightly or wrongly) that testing isn't as all encompassing as you'd expect. A couple years ago there were reports from new-pros that they'd been tested all of three times in a year or something! The opportunity is there and only the threat of OOC testing is there to stop people...

Up thread people state they feel the image of cycling has changed. And it has, there's a lot energy been expended in this area. Unfortunately I don't think the reality quite matches the image.

Still, cycling looks like a WI tea party compared to this lot:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/37371735

I guess only a very specialised doctor could tell what can Asthma medication mask, I was only suggesting another point of view.
In any case, we won't know it until a few years.

Since a few years I watch cyling the same way my son watches WWE, I know it's not real, but I enjoy watching it anyway.

I think that Junky's sense of moral purpose and correctness would argue the opposite; that it can be legally right but morally wrong.

In terms of TUE i would say if someone has them occasionally- or proof of asthma its probably not to cheat. If you have 50 a year for every substance possible then you are cheating. Tax avoiders tend to be doing the later - everything possibly to avoid tax which is legal but immoral but it depends what you do. I am certain someone somewhere on a TUE or the heart drug they all stopped when it became illegal. They were cheating

I'm sorry but a bronchial dilator cannot dilate a non constricted bronchial.

Actually this isn't true. A healthy subject can be bronchodilated but this isn't easily measurable by normal spirometry. Airway resistance is reduced slightly but this is measured using a plethysmograph! I worked on bronchodilaing volunteers using beta agonists (salbutamol's grandchildren, actually including vilanterol and plenty of others that did not become medicines) for a long time. The performance benefits will be negligible because these are just resting changes not at threshold.

Urine levels for beta agonists are set, and adjusted for dehydration after a race. You really wouldn't want to take systemic doses for long term metabolic effects.

As for masking, there is very little reason for masking TUEs such as diuretics. Professional athletes will not be treated for blood pressure, as a rule. Same for anabolic steroids.

“The effects are noticeable very quickly. Tramadol made me feel euphoric, but it’s also very hard to focus. It kills the pain in your legs and you can push really hard.

[url= http://cyclingtips.com/2016/09/team-sky-tue-controversy-why-one-medical-expert-has-real-concerns/ ]Jeroen Swart seems to be a little uppity about Wiggins.[/url] The "no-needle" bullshit in his book seems to be coming back to bite him.

It is not a first-line therapy and it certainly wouldn’t be something that I would be comfortable giving to a rider as a preventative medicine. So one of two things is going on: either they have prescribed it as a preventative medicine, which doesn’t sit well with me, or he had such serious symptoms that they were completely uncontrollable, and that just happened to happen coincidentally a couple of days before he contested a Grand Tour. And at different times of the season, because the Giro isn’t anywhere near pollen season and nobody suffers from dramatic allergies in the Giro.

Michael Rasmussen talked about applying for a TUE to get this injection. He said that Geert Leinders did exactly that for them. He would apply for a TUE for some arbitrary illness, and then inject them with exactly the same substance, Triamcinolone acetonide, just before a Grand Tour.

He doesn't say he believes Wiggins is dirty but that the whole thing leaves him cold that it seems the drug shouldn't be covered by a TUE and Wiggins/Sky statements in the past contradict this leak.