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I tried to convince my somewhat old-school mate about the benefits of tubeless. He liked it at first then had endless problems with one wheel, being unable to get tape to stick and work. He ended up buying a new wheel which he still had to tape and it went up immediately and stayed up. So now he's happy with it again. The old rims were circa 2005 so not designed for it. When I ran tubeless back then I always used a rim strip but they're not that easy to get any more.
Have you tried putting the wheel in a bath of water? This will show you where the air is leaking from, if its coming through the spokes you know its a tape failiure ect
And there is no need for 3 layers of tape one and overlap a few inches.
Yeah Hope20FIVE tubeless user here. I've regularly had to retape these rims (Tessa tape - correct diameter) but eventually the tape pulls away from the rim and leaks out the valve hole. I've got to the point where it holds air pretty well but still needs regular topping up with air. This was achieved with scuffing the rim surface, heating the tape and putting a tube in. Never had any bother with mtb wheels.
Just slap another layer of tape on it. I use Tesa tape, the yellow stuff, about 25mm in my 20mm road rims. Seals any rims, not just tubeless and most tyres, tubeless or not.
Not sealing? Another layer of tape.
Duct tape in its various forms is ok but can go manky and is messy to strip off.
All my tubeless tyres lose around 20% a week. They’re either all (20) wrong or that’s just normal. It doesn’t bother me at all. On the commuter I pump the tyres on a Sunday and then it does the 250km of commuting and for the others, I’d always check the tyre pressures before setting off anyway, so it’s no big deal. I think it’s more than with tubes, but I’m having to cast my mind back almost 15 years to compare.
One layer for mtb, two layers for road.
Some rims need degreasing and scouring, some need a tube in over night.
Never had an issue, except for a pair of 231CD rims that i couldn't get a set of wildgrippers to go tubeless on.
I have however tried to build a rim with no inner holes. Never again.
The either end up heavy and a pain in the arse like the mavic USTs (with the double threaded nipples) or an utter nightmare to service and build with conventional nipples.
I don't think my three layers was a problem. I have a rim strip on now instead, which is working great, and I'm pretty sure it's as thick as three layers of tape -- and it still has a layer of tape underneath
I think the extra weight of a Mavic UST rim with threaded spoke holes is well worth it. I would guess that the extra sealant needed with a dubiously sealed set up equalises the weight pretty quickly -- unless you clean out your tyres more often. And the Mavic UST wheel sets are lighter than similarly priced DT Swiss wheels anyway
I would guess that the extra sealant needed with a dubiously sealed set up equalises the weight pretty quickly
Nah. I have a feeling the dubious sealing is not a widespread issue. And 95% of the sealant is there for the tyre carcass, not the rim/tape. Also, sealant is only about 25-30% solids, so you're not adding 50 ml to 50 ml when you top up after 6 months.
I think the extra weight of a Mavic UST rim with threaded spoke holes is well worth it.
No one who builds wheels does. Those nipples seize in no time and mavic are *incredibly* bad at supporting with spares.
Also, when you tape the rims, how are you dealing with the join in the rim?
I’m curious to know how people define tubeless setup success…
Seems to me that all tubeless setups lose pressure and it varies massively. One person may be regarding an overnight pressure drop of say 4psi from a road tyre at an initial 65 or so as acceptable whilst others may not so it’s all rather relative.
It would probably be helpful to many tubeless runners to have something to compare to.
Personally losing 4psi overnight from 65 psi originally is not what I would call a successful setup but I’m only basing that on the fact that I would have thought it should be better than that…
I think on an MTB tyre it’s likely to be a lot more favourable just because of the lower pressures involved however so on this forum perhaps there will be more success stories than failures. It really shouldn’t be this hard to get it setup though. Nowhere in any instructions for example (apart from forums with people who have experienced difficulties and found a solution) does it say you need to double or triple tape or use a soldering iron to puncture the valve hole and although I can see why these things might help they shouldn’t be necessary.
So in the interests of research, what tolerances for pressure loss do people think are acceptable and from what starting pressure are they basing this on?
I used to check my tyres before every ride when using tubes on a road bike, because I was using 23c tyres at 95psi so they'd drop pressure in a few days. So it's habit now I don't even think about it. So a bit of pressure loss is immaterial to me. My new MTB doesn't really lose any between rides that I can tell, my road bike loses maybe 5-7psi a week? Not sure.
Nah. I have a feeling the dubious sealing is not a widespread issue.
Not sure about that. A lot of people with tubeless seem to assume that pumping up your tyres before every ride is normal -- it certainly is for me on most set ups. My commuter -- only tubes I have left -- gets air in the tyres once a month I rekon. but my gravel bike every ride, same pressures. Surely this has quite an impact on sealant life? I certainly get a lot of residue building up in my tyres (using Orange Seal).
Are the Mavic rims that much heavier? They don't sell them separately anymore so hard to compare. All I've checked is that Mavic factory wheels are quite a bit lighter than DT Swiss, at the same price point. Also, once you add a rim strip instead of tape, I wonder if the difference is cancelled out anyway.
As for building, I don't build my own wheels so faff doesn't bother me. I'd certainly rather pay a builder an extra £30 to avoid me having to retape a rim two or three times a year...
I’m curious to know how people define tubeless setup success…
I'm happy if my tyres hold a reasonable pressure for week (with, say, about 10% pressure loss) -- very happy if they last longer than that
I consider it managable when they drop 10-20% pressure over a few days
I consider a set-up a failure if there is noticable pressure loss over a long day's ride, or if it can't even hold very low pressures of like 10-15 psi for at least a few weeks
I don't think rim strips are needed with modern rim beds as they seem to be designed for tubeless unlike older rims.
And re-taping rims? Really? What happens to the old tape?
The old tape will become cracked and separate over time. Dedicated rim tape tends to last longer than Gorilla tape for this purpose.
And re-taping rims? Really? What happens to the old tape?
For me, normally loads of air bubbles under the tape in the channel and potentially slight lifting at the edges
I normally assume this is why a set up isn't holding air that well, provided I have faith that both the tyre itself is air-tight and the valve is good
I check my MTB tyre pressure before every ride these days.
A lot of people with tubeless seem to assume that pumping up your tyres before every ride is normal
Errr, I check my tyre pressure before every ride, unless i rode that bike the day before, i've done that for near enough 40 years. Not changing now.
I've still got rims i taped 8-10 years ago on the original stans tape, probably 8-10 sets of tyres in that time. So there's probably something off with what you're doing. And yes, of course you hear about issues, because virtually no one says "yeah, tubeless was easy, it just went up".
Dunno where you get wheels built, because you'll be lucky to have a 30 quid upcharge for rims with a solid bed, more like 50 per wheel, it turns building wheels into a right pain in the arse, feeding nipples through, blind, from the valve hole. The mavics used to be about 100g heavier for the rim, plus the nipples tended to be (slightly) heavier. But it's years (decade+) since i've built one.
@mert When you check your pressures what do you find? Are they maintaining? What psi do you run at?
Errr, I check my tyre pressure before every ride, unless i rode that bike the day before, i’ve done that for near enough 40 years. Not changing now.
This. I never had a road bike with tubes that didn't need a few strokes of the pump at least every week. Nor an MTB with tubes, come to that.
I never had a road bike with tubes that didn’t need a few strokes of the pump at least every week.
Yes but that's different to every day and a few strokes is, what, 5psi on a road tyre - reasonable tube or tubeless loss over a week I would say.
There's literally no consistency as far as I can tell. 🤷♂️
Some people seem to imply that they are needing to top up every day and others once a week. Some just say every ride and then don't say how much 5/10/20 psi - also if you only ride once a month then you are bound to have to top up every ride..!
What's the story here it seems most odd? Do people just put up with large losses and then tell everyone that their setup is fine to avoid embarrassment or to score macho points or something?
Air loss over a week IS fine, for me. I don't care. It takes me about 90 seconds to top up both wheels. But it's always only a few psi anyway, it's not like they are going completely flat. Like I say, it's a habit I acquired before I started using tubeless.
I think my road bike is fine over a few days, but I always check anyway. There's always a chance I picked up a puncture which sealed without me knowing it, but that could easily result in a few psi loss. And I run them pretty low anyway at 57psi or so in 28c (because tubeless allows me to) so a 5psi loss is nearly 10% which is significant.
virtually no one says “yeah, tubeless was easy, it just went up”.
I'll say it 🙂 road bike with original wheels (bought 2 years ago so modern setup and tyres and pre-taped rims) went up straight away on Conti somethings, then I changed for Pro Ones and they also went straight up. I think I used an airshot for all those. Then I got Prime wheels, also went straight up with airshot. The Sunn Ringlé wheels and Maxxis tyres on my Reactor went straight up with just a track pump, and a narrow bore one at that.
There are two separate things here though, getting them to inflate in the first place and then keeping them there!
The former evidently a whole lot easier than the latter!
I’ve got a brand new factory taped set of DT Swiss road wheels with DT Swiss valves and 2Bliss tyres which I setup on Thursday and they went up with no issues at all - holding pressure, hmm not so great IMO as it’s 4-5 psi loss from 65psi in 24rs. I did all the stuff they recommend, spinning the wheel about on its side and doing a 20k ride immediately etc…
I’ve also got a set of DT Swiss MTB wheels and they hold pressure fine - I taped these myself using MucOff tape (although I hate most of their stuff the rim tape seems to be OK 🤷♂️) and I use Stans in both.
Someone did say that it can take 2 weeks to fully seal new setups so maybe that’s it.
It’s a dark art…😂
The former evidently a whole lot easier than the latter!
Not really, unless you mean 'stay inflated' to mean hold air indefinitely. No tyre does that even with tubes. Your car tyres don't even do it, you need to check them regularly.
holding pressure, hmm not so great IMO as it’s 4-5 psi loss from 65psi in 24rs
That can happen at first, but it improves. When I replaced a Pro One on my road bike it went completely flat overnight for the first few weeks, then it stabilised, now it's fine. Previous one didn't have this issue though, it stayed up straight away.
Someone did say that it can take 2 weeks to fully seal new setups so maybe that’s it.
Two weeks of regular riding yes. So maybe 4-8 rides?
When you check your pressures what do you find? Are they maintaining? What psi do you run at?
On the MTB between about 1,2 and 1,8 bar depending on the bike/size of tyre.
Usually lose between 0,3-0,4 a week down to 0,8-1 bar, then it can stay there, or thereabouts for weeks. Some of that loss is filling the hose when i connect the pump.
On the road (not much experience yet) i run at about 4,5-5 bar and lose about 1 bar or slightly less a week, only had them up for a month though.
IMV, losing pressure is only a problem if it interrupts a ride. As long as it’s consistent whilst I’m riding I don’t mind topping up regularly.
all pulled nice and tight, and pressed down hard enough to leave my thumbs sore for a few days
When I came to change the tyre this week, the tape is already a mess of air bubbles even though it’s only been on a couple of months
From a purely problem solving point of view it sounds like the tape might be too tight and retracts leaving bubbles/wrinkles
From a purely problem solving point of view it sounds like the tape might be too tight and retracts leaving bubbles/wrinkles
That could be true. But if so it kind of just demonstrates again that tubeless is a bit of a hack
A lot of advice is the opposite -- that tape needs to be pulled really tight to properly seal. And this thread alone has people saying that three layers is too much, and conflicting advice that if things aren't sealing to add another layer
I'm not saying tape doesn't work -- I have mtb wheels with wide rims that are fine. But it's often just a bit shoddy
On the checking pressures before everyride, obviously I always give my tyres a squeeze at the least and have done that well before the days of tubeless
I don't even particularly mind adding a bit of air before each ride. I just find it a bit crap that even an acceptable taped set-up can have such high air loss, and I assume this reduces sealant life -- someone correct me if I'm wrong?
Specifically, the set up I had that provoked this thread was running 700 x 45mm tyres, with the rear at about 28 psi and the front closer to 25 psi
The rear would be notably softer than the front just one day after a ride; the rear was taped, the front not as it's a proper Mavic UST rim (no holes)
A few days later the rear would be lower still, but the front seemed to have lost almost nothing
I’m curious to know how people define tubeless setup success…
I check tyres before every ride, and I'm normally putting 2-3 psi in them each week, Success for me is that they're not flat when I open the shed door.
I check tyres before every ride, and I’m normally putting 2-3 psi in them each week, Success for me is that they’re not flat when I open the shed door.
MTB or road, specifically 20-30 psi or 60+? 2-3 psi over a week on 60+ psi starting value is definitely a successful setup in my book. In fact 2-3 psi on a 20-30 psi MTB tyre is also in the realms of acceptable.
I assume this reduces sealant life
I dunno, I top up when I think of it, maybe 6 months or so?
I dunno, I top up when I think of it, maybe 6 months or so?
What worried me recently was removing a couple of tyres that I thought had still-functioning sealant in them, but which turned out to just contain discolored water
Perhaps it serves me right for just shaking them to check for sealant rather than popping off a bead to take a proper look, but given my record with tubeless tape I'm always hesitant to do that
It was Orange Seal Endurance, which should last 6 month min (and hadn't been in that long)
In fact 2-3 psi on a 20-30 psi MTB tyre is also in the realms of acceptable.
Yeah for me it's OK, I'm hooking the floor pump up to the tyres anyway, so it's no bother. I'd be looking a bit closer if it was going from (for example) twenty psi to single figures each time. I don't check sealant any more unless I'm changing tyres. which I do a couple of times a year anyway.
Oh, and forgot to say before, I only ever uses Stans, both tape and sealant, and valves when I need to I've tried others and always come back to it.
Ah I’ve mentioned it on a few threads but I’ve used ‘Effetto Mariposa Caffelatex Tubeless Plus 20-25 mm Strip 2 Units With Valve’
Caffélatex Strip is the ultimate tubeless solution for very difficult rims (for example, aluminum rims with mat surface finishing, rims with very deep channel, pin-joined rims where the junction is not welded etc.). This because Strip isn’t adhesive: it’s made in one piece and relies on its elasticity to sit tight on the rim.
Basically a tight rubber band as I was having tape issues.
I couldn’t get hold of the tessa tape that I’ve always found to work well and had gone thru various tapes but nothing seemed to work that well.
Ah I’ve mentioned it on a few threads but I’ve used ‘Effetto Mariposa Caffelatex Tubeless Plus 20-25 mm Strip 2 Units With Valve’
Might give this a whirl, £25 a pair including valves isn't bad
All power to you tubeless riders, but this is another in a long line of threads that made me think “don’t go tubeless”.
I do it for the ride quality.
All power to you tubeless riders, but this is another in a long line of threads that made me think “don’t go tubeless”.
I'm kinda the same, then I get another stupid puncture that ruins a ride/run and I remember why tubeless is better.
It’s the comfort and the puncture faff removal that I like. It was after I spent 30 mins in freezing conditions repairing a puncture only to get another one literally 5 mins later that convinced me to try it. I was a full convert after I got home one day to find that I had had two punctures and not even noticed. That was on the MTB courtesy of thorns. I have since had glass in my road bike and although it pissed sealant out all over the chap behind, when he pointed this out and I stopped, it did seal up enough to get me home. I’m not even going to carry a tube around with me from now on.
Herein lieth the answer:
I’ve actually used the same tape on a 30mm internal rim, so it just covers the spoke holes. That wheel is holding air perfectly, even after a couple of tyre changes
Caveat: I haven't read the thread and I'm a bit of an idiot-mechanic.
Best install I ever did was when I didn't have any proper rim tape and used electrical tape instead.
I've found my issues with tubeless have always stemmed from either the tape or the valve.
One tape job I did was holding air fine until I tightened the lock nut on the valve too tight and it caused the tape to pull away from the rim on the inside. I'm using 30mm peatys tape on 29mm rims.
I use those peaty's chris king valves but have also found that the seal around the valve and tape always sucks despite no matter the method i use to create the hole to stick the valve through, best fix I've found for that is to dribble a good blob of sealant around the valve and into the rim.
I lose probably up to 10psi per week depending how hot or cold the shed is so always check tyre pressures and pump up before heading out for a ride but to be fair I used to always do that when I ran tubes as I only ever used to find out I had a slow puncture 10 miles away from home when it started to become noticeable.
Also it seems the running theme around where I am to prevent mtbing by disgruntled walkers and horse riders is to throw scatterings of brambles and thorny branches across the paths, I take great delight in the fact I can just ride over them without a care in the world whilst those that have put them there are also taking great delight in thinking they're causing loads of punctures ruining our day, so hopefully don't have a repeat of booby traps on trails, enough uninformed menacing on their side to satiate their hateful appetite.
I feel similar to a lot of the recent comments
I've considered sacking off tubeless, then I remember the days of tubed punctures -- pretty sure I once got 4 or 5 snakebike punctures on a single descent down Helvellyn as a young teen
I've considered Tannus Armour with a Tubolito inner tube and a light XC tyre, but even then it's hard to get the weight reasonable
what is the best tubeless tape these days? ive used muc off recently and cant wait till its run out as it doesnt stay stuck down at the cut point, and lots of horrid build up of sealant works its way in etc, there must be something better out there?
@oscillatewildly I hope it doesn't leave such a mess of residue on your rims as it did on mine...