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Obviously this comes up a lot and there's always a bunch of people that say they've never had any problems, and a bunch others that disagree.
I seem to have constant problems, at least on narrower rims with higher pressures (but I'm still only talking ~40 psi).
Last time I taped up the rear wheel of my gravel bike I did as clean a job as I can ever imagine doing.
I spent nearly an hour cleaning it up with rubbing alcohol as the previous mucoff tape had left a load of residue (and not worked that well). I warmed the tape before applying (something I've never done before). I did three layers to be sure, all pulled nice and tight, and pressed down hard enough to leave my thumbs sore for a few days, no air bubbles that I could see. And of course did the shake and lay on it's side after installing the tyre. The valve I'm using is a Mavic UST and so is the rim, so they sit nice and flush.
But ever since that, the tyre has always dropped from psi in the high 20's to the low 20's over one or two days, then to a little under 20 after a week. So it's been a case of inflating before every ride, and it prob drops a few psi over a lnoger ride. When I came to change the tyre this week, the tape is already a mess of air bubbles even though it's only been on a couple of months.
I'm really at a loss; every tyre change is just a total faff. I've read a bunch of threads on this, watched how-to videos on youtube, which always make it look so much easier than it ever feels. The only thing I've never done is put a tube in overnight, but I can't imagine how I'd get one in there with this rim as the tyre was tight enough as it was (it's only 21mm internal so there's not much space for both beads to sit in the channel). Plus, like I say, no air bubbles I could see.
What I've ended up doing this time is leaving the bottom layer of rim tape on there, then installing a Specialised rim strip on top of a thin layer of double sided tape down the channel (last time I used a stip on this rim the tyre creased it and it didn't hold air at all). This has held 40 psi for three days, so seems to be solid.
But damn it should not be this complicated. The front wheel on my gravel bike has a proper mavic UST rim with no spoke holes, and it just works. I also found a Bontrager rim strip that fits my DT Swiss rim on my mtb and that's also perfect -- installing the strip is a 30 sec job, and the seal is perfect. There's also no chance something like the Bontrager strip would be damaged by a snapped spoke.
This is 70% rant post, 30% call for help I guess
Only thing I can suggest is are you using the right sized tape for your rim?
My bikes do lose some air over a week and it's no biggie to give a couple of pumps before a ride is it?
Mavic UST and so is the rim
Why are you using tape on a UST rim?
If it's a ust rim, try using a proper ust rim strip. I used to have some ust rims and they came with a rim strip rather than tape. Was super tight and worked perfectly.
https://www.bikeparts.co.uk/products/mavic-25mm-ust-tape-19-to-22mm-road-rims?
Yes, def the right size -- 21mm internal rim, 24mm or 25mm tape (I can't remember, but it fits between the rim walls perfectly when installed)
I've actually used the same tape on a 30mm internal rim, so it just covers the spoke holes. That wheel is holding air perfectly, even after a couple of tyre changes
Is it a new tyre? I've had some tyres (tan walls particularly) that have been flat as a pancake the next morning. It took several days, lots of sealant and plenty of swishing the wheel around sideways to get the sealant onto the sidewalls before they'd seal up; after that they were fine.
@nickc, it's not a fully sealed rim, it's one of these
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rims-tape/mavic-xc621-29er-622-mtb-disc-rim-black-32-hole/
I thought Mavic called all their tubeless rims UST, even the drilled ones, but I could be wrong. In any case they say to use a UST valve
@ads678, I didn't realise Mavic did rim strips. They seem to have moved to tape now, but I will have a google (my quick look now only unearther 26" strips)
@pjay, no not a new tyre so not the issue I'm afraid. I've had weepy sidewalls before too, but these ones seem OK. In any cae, they should have sorted themselves out ofter two months
The only trick I do is to warm the rim and tape before I wrap
Ah, gotcha. cool.
In no particular order.
that particular tyre won't hold air, you're wasting your time with it
the valve is leaking - nine times out of ten it's this for me
the rim's got a dent in it somewhere - doesn't have to be massive, just enough not to seal.
My rule is three goes at it, and then put a tube in. Sometimes it just doesn't want to seem to work, other times you can put the sloppiest bit of tape, take no care, and it goes up without any issues. For me the failure rate increases with the operating pressure the tyre needs to be at, fat 'ole MTB tyres I never have any issues, commuting tyres or anything that needs to stay above 35-40 psi failure rate is about one in four, road bikes, I have never done it successfully.
That one I've linked says tape but on the pic the box says rim strip.
Pretty sure the rims I had had spoke holes, but they deff used a rim strip rather than tape.
@wheeliedirty, yes, I did do that this time. First time I've bothered and it did make application easier, but hasn't kept it stuck down
I should also clarify, this has been an ongoing problem for years, with different tyres and rims -- but like I say only really narrower rims. Wider ones that are gently sloped into the channel I generally don't have problems with.
Hope 20FIVE were the worst. I found them impossible to tape, and when I installed a supposably puncture-proof Effetto tubeless rim strip it still punctured (I think the Hope rims' spoke holes were particular sharp and angular)
Yeah some rims just don't want to seal (see my success rate with road rims) I've experienced the same as you, narrow rim with a defined channel - doesn't work. I thought my technique was just sloppy, but maybe its the rim shape after all.
You could give gorilla tape a go. Wrap some leccy tape round first to prevent the gunk gorilla tape tape leaves behind. Then see if a normal tubeless valve works. It's always worked for me, but not tried it with a ust rim though...
@ads678, ah, for some reason I didn't see your link, thanks I'll check it out.
The Gorrila tape with electric underneath is also a good idea and something I had considered. And the narrower Gorrila tape should be perfect for a 21mm rim as well
Sometimes it just doesn’t want to seem to work, other times you can put the sloppiest bit of tape, take no care, and it goes up without any issues. For me the failure rate increases with the operating pressure the tyre needs to be at, fat ‘ole MTB tyres I never have any issues, commuting tyres or anything that needs to stay above 35-40 psi failure rate is about one in four, road bikes, I have never done it successfully.
@nickc, yes, totally agree. It's the unpredictability of tape that grinds at me. I've never bothered trying it with a proper road tyre as I wouldn't trust tubeless at high pressure, unless it was a proper holeless Mavic rim.
The tyre was def fine this time, and the rim is newish and dent free. It could have been the valve though, yes. One theory I had is that the valve leaked and pressuried the rim enough to bubble the tape from underneath, ruining what may have been a well taped rim. Guess I'll never know
@ads678, ah, for some reason I didn’t see your link, thanks I’ll check it out
Was an edit, so probably crossed posts.
It's a bodge job that for some reason is now an industry standard. If those plastic Specialized rim strips fit I'd just keep using them. I don't have much trouble with tape but when I do I just put one of the strips in and all the trouble vanishes.
The correct answer is a fully sealed rim bed but manufacturers need to maximise profit on their £800 aluminium wheelsets so drilling and installing 50p worth of tape is what we get.
Just a guess. Do you make the hole in the tap with a knife or use a skewer to get a round hole. Not sure if it makes any difference.
In 2023 making a tyre and wheel air tight using tape seems so archaic to me .install I find fine but eventually the sealant will bond itself to the tyre upon removal etc
I've got mavic crossmax xls and it's liberating nit having to mess about with tape ...
It’s a bodge job that for some reason is now an industry standard.
@munrobiker, exactly, and I can't believe everyone doesn't see it this way. I think the Bontrager strips are perhaps the best solution in the absence of rim redesign. They really are nice, but finding one that fits is a total gamble with non-Bontrager rims
The Specialised strips are great, but unfortunately really hard, or even impossible, to get hold of now in the size I need (25mm -- I have some 26mm ones that I think are marginally too wide, but perhaps they'd be fine after a tyre installation)
I have some of the Effetto ones too, I'm just not convinced by them after my Hope rims punctured two of them (but may be that does implay it was the rims' fault)
@chrishc777, thanks, I've never tried DT, that's def one option
@kentishman, normally a skewer, but I've used a knife when being lazy in the past. I reckon this can def cause a problem
Gorilla tape is a massive pain to remove if you ever want to do so. I'm not using that again.
I've got 21mm rims on my cross bike, no problems at present. I think I'm using the Prime tape from CRC.
Road bike is on tubes, it's so straightforward....
Only thing I do that you didn't mention is putting in an innertube overnight after taping. I know some people think it's pointless but it "works for me"
I also like thinnish, flexible tape (like DT as mentioned above or I think the Bird stuff might be similar)
I do agree that (while I think it's great in many ways) tubeless setup is a faff
(adds: I melt a hole in the tape by heating a bradawl)
Why 3 layers of tape? I've only ever done one with a couple of spoke holes overlap at the valve. That's a pretty thick addition to the rim bed.
Nowadays I always do a wrap of electrical tape first (on a cleaned rim) THEN the rim tape... I found rim tape just doesn't stick nicely to rims... But with the electrical tape first it's a lovely bond...
DrP
@tthew, I thought two was recommended, but with the problems I've had I figured I may as well do three. I can't believe you manage to get away with one layer...
@scaredypants, yes, that is the one thing I've not tried. Perhaps I need to get hold of an old, non-tubeless tyre with a loose fitting bead and try it
@davidmoyesismydad, yea, it's a Mavic Allroad S I have on the front of the gravel bike and damn it is nice to not need tape. Also, the better seal means my sealant probably lasts longer
As tthew says - 3 layers sounds unusual, you'd need a special reason to do that like an odd-shaped rim bed. I use one layer for all wheel types.
That being said the air-loss you're describing sounds pretty typical to me and I wouldn't see it as a problem. Larger MTB tyres do retain good tubeless pressure ime but narrower road and gravel will often drop air over the week.
Are you overtightening the valve perhaps? I genuinely only ever nip it up with my fingers until the point that the valve spins with the nut.
I can't see anything else you might be doing wrong but like others above I've never really had issues with tape leaking and never really given it much thought.
Do you use tyre levers? Is there a chance they're catching or lifting the tape?
I also used a heated bradawl to melt a neat little hole through new tape rather than cutting or punching through with something angular.
To be fair, this is probably the first wheel on which I've used three layers of tape. I was hoping it would mean I didn't need to change it again as soon as I changed the tyre
It's also true that the air loss was bearable. I could have dealt with that, may be I could have just looked away when I changed the tyre and ignored the bubbling tape, but it really was quite extensive bubbling, didn't trust it at all. In any case, even if the air loss was bearable, it's so much nicer to have my front and rear tyres equally well sealed, partly to avoid unequal sealant expiration
As for the nut, that's a tricky one. When I installed the strip, I'd undertightened it at first. I guess this depends on the valve design (my current ones aren't symmetric so don't spin)
As for tyre levers, I very rarely resort them -- I haven't with this wheel
I can’t see anything else you might be doing wrong but like others above I’ve never really had issues with tape leaking and never really given it much thought.
Oh I envy you...
I generally had good luck with two wraps of Tesa tape, if needs be I'll overlap to either side to ensure it sits under the bead.
Gorilla tape is stronger due to the fibre reinforcement, and hence won't give so easily at the spoke holes, but it's porous and needs a wrap of Tesa tape over it to be useful.
Get the rim actually hot, like leave it on a radiator hot.
Warm the rim tape until its nearly melting.
Use a heated soldering iron for putting a valve hole in.
Ive got a Tesa tape off ebay, cant remember the number, its black and a bit stickier than the normal yellow stuff. Doesnt stick like gorilla tape but lets the tyre slide better.
spent nearly an hour cleaning it up with rubbing alcohol
Leave it overnight to dry completely, ideally a couple of days. Any moisture will cause tape to fail. You'll have hidden moisture in the spoke holes etc. Give it a blow out with an air gun or compressed air can and I guarantee loads of fluid will come out.
TESA 4289. £10 for a massive roll. You'll thank me later, particularly if it means not using Gorilla tape. 😉
Your usual reminder that the proper Gorilla tape for this is the clear stuff and not the fibre reinforced gunky mess.
Also Tesa tape is the best, if it doesn't work with that go ghetto with a BMX tube.
TBH, I've used normal black gorilla tape loads of times, and it works as well as anything else. If you wrap with leccy tape first you don't get the gunk mess.
Can you use the tesa tape on its own?
Currently have DT Swiss rims with muck off tape, working fine. Sun Ringle rims with lifeline tape working fine, and DT Swiss rims with Stan's tape working fine.
I know I'm amazing aren't I...
If clear Gorilla tape was available in 25mm I'd def use that -- it's sticky as hell and tough, I use it to tape wear areas on frames. But I don't trust myself to cut a 50mm roll down to width without it being too wiggly
It is Tesa tape that I've been using on narrower rims -- some black, quite sticky ebay stuff
Get the rim actually hot, like leave it on a radiator hot.
Warm the rim tape until its nearly melting.
Use a heated soldering iron for putting a valve hole in.
Ok, I have not done any of this but should taping a rim really be so hard? I guess at this point I'm so used to tape only lasting a few months (and not even working that well during that time) that I'd struggle to motivate myself to put in this much effort
Leave it overnight to dry completely, ideally a couple of days. Any moisture will cause tape to fail. You’ll have hidden moisture in the spoke holes etc. Give it a blow out with an air gun or compressed air can and I guarantee loads of fluid will come out.
Ditto to this
Although it's a fair point about moisture... Perhaps when I cleaned the rim I did leave a load of alcohol moisture inside it. Hmmm...
Currently have DT Swiss rims with muck off tape, working fine. Sun Ringle rims with lifeline tape working fine, and DT Swiss rims with Stan’s tape working fine.
@ads678, how wide as these rims? and at MTB pressures?
Bontrager rim strips really are the best:
May be there's a business opportunity in copying them but to fit common rim profiles from DT, WTB, Stans, etc.
Definitely try putting a tube in overnight, pumped up hard.
how wide as these rims? and at MTB pressures?
DT with muck off are 25mm I think usually about 25-30psi. Other 2 are both 30mm, probably about 20psi.
That Bonty rim strip looks cool.
OK, I think I normally manage OK with anything 25mm internal or wider. Certainly at 30mm taping becomes pretty easy -- until you pop a spoke and damage it from the inside... (which to tbf has only happened to me once in many years)
Yea the Bonty things are great. Completely solves the valve-rim interface thing, as well as being effortless to install, and not too difficult to remove to replace a spoke or move to another wheel
It might be the tyres. What sealant are you using?
3 layers is too much, it just leaves less room for the bead to seal on the rim. One layer with a bit of overlap has always worked for me and I've been swapping tyres every couple of weeks doing tyre tests. I use some "Stan's" tape I got from eBay. Not Stan's branded but the same stuff with various sealants, sometimes mixed brands depending on what I've been sent and how much is left in the bottle
@munrobiker, exactly, and I can’t believe everyone doesn’t see it this way. I think the Bontrager strips are perhaps the best solution in the absence of rim redesign. They really are nice, but finding one that fits is a total gamble with non-Bontrager rims
Mavic got things nearly right with UST 20 years ago - a superb first go at tubeless technology. I got a set on a new bike in 2002 and they worked great - even greater after sealants started to be understood as beneficial.
They were miles ahead of everyone but they just stood still with it for years - perhaps they thought that the unavoidable weight penalty of a sealed rim could never be surmounted in marketing terms. We all appreciate that weight is massively over-played for MTBs but it remains deeply rooted in the business of selling bikes to this day.
There were other issues but they would have been overcome given sufficient development - eg the rims were narrow, the OG UST bead was a square shape so tyres were somewhat restricted etc.
Specialized rim strip so much easier and cleaner. Not had an issues just line up the valve holes and it's done.