Forum menu
A double header, well almost.
I'd created my own VO2max workout, basically the intervals are 30 seconds hard start then a minute descending to 115% of FTP then hold that for 90 seconds. There are six intervals and the 30 seconds hard start drops by about 3% for each interval, the first interval is at 140% and the last at 125%. The idea is that you get your HR to 90%MHR by the end of the descending ramp so as the workout progresses you don't need such hard starts.
That's the theory. I got to the third interval which is one better than my previous best attempt at this. More my legs struggling than HR or breathing though neither of those were exactly pleasant to witness.
Then went straight to Pettit which is classic endurance territory.
Quite enjoying the trainer road sessions on the kickr core now. Smart trainer is more enjoyable than dumb trainer.
Ftp was 221 on a new ramp test -
In ERG mode it gradually just ground me to a halt which was very different to the ramp on the dumb trainer.
Feeling stronger on the mtb up hills already - got some pbs last time out without actually trying that hard and felt like I had some extra kick in my legs.
Did Erikson -1 this morning - on the last spin up I found I had more go so turned it up to 115% on the gauge at the bottom of the screen. Felt great.....thinking by the next ramp test I should have gone up in ftp for sure.
Did Fish-2 this morning. Pretty hard work, managed the first three intervals OK but there was nothing much in my legs for the last one and my power was dropping out of threshold down into tempo so I bailed early.
Still managed to do 51mins at just below FTP out of the target 60 so not a total disaster.
That Fish workout sounds hard. Did Antelope today for the first time (my first round of TR workouts since I signed up / got a smart turbo) - it was meant to be the 1.30 session but I only had an hour so did Antelope -5. I found that really difficult and my rpm was dropping down to the 70’s towards the end of the last 2 of the 4 blocks. I reckon grinding out power near ish to my ftp for any length of time is my weakness that needs working on. The sprint type workouts and shorter sweet spot ones (Goddard and Erikson) are fine and I quite enjoy those. Baxter was less fun with a constant output without the spin at lower power between higher output sections. Antelope definitely the least enjoyable one for me.
It’s really helping mtb hill climbing though - knocked out 850m of climbing on the weekend gone and still felt fairly fresh at the end (circa 3 hour ride - would have been shorter if I hadn’t been trying to workout where a bridleway I’d not ridden before was). Knocked 2 minutes off a hill that had taken 9 mins to climb a few weeks ago - so I think things are going the right way so far 🥰
If this works as intended then it's going to be pretty amazing. Machine learning based adaptive training. I'm only 40 mins or so into the video at the moment so don't know everything that's being revealed, I'll probably have to listen to it a couple of times to get everything.
Obviously very much towards the infomercial end of things.
Just a beginner question - now been doing the SSBLV1 for a while - still got a while to go on it too. Been doing 3 sessions a week before work and feeling quite a bit stronger already. First time today with 2x20min sweet spot just a bit below ftp I tested a few weeks back. Though it was going to be hideous - and while it was constant pressure I finished the second interval still feeling fairly strong. Would it hurt to either add in a 4th session a week sometimes - and if so what sort of workout should I pick? Assume not a Hiit type 1 but more of a base / low intensity type thing?
Im no expert, but used TR for few years. Always best to stick to workout & their numbers. If you have time, next plan go to Mid volume? I have always done low volume and dont think anything zone 2 or lower inside or outside has negative effects. If I do 3x LV workouts have often had slow Sunday ride outside as well? I think if people are finding SS and higher threshold workouts a breeze maybe FTP is bit under. Ive done all SS base, and now on General build and every workout (apart from rest week) you know you have done a proper workout 🙂
Add Pettit. It's the usual filler on the mid volume. With the recommended cadences it's taxing enough.
Don't add another hard session at this point IMO.
You could add a few percent onto each interval as well on your main sessions if you feel up to it. I normally do so after the first one as you have more info on what you can do that day.
Fatigue can catch up quick even when you are feeling great.
I only do low volume and then add long easy rides at the weekend (I move the three workouts to midweek days specifically to allow this). The rides are usually outdoors depending on the weather.
Pettit as suggested or maybe one of the Baxter group if you want something a little more varied - my goal is to complete Baxter entirely within my HR Z1, the closest I've got is 90s of Z2!
Another option is to use the "extend cool down" period by ten or fifteen minutes then up the intensity to somewhere between 50-60% and just spin it out.
The stress does accumulate over the weeks BTW. Remember to fuel properly for the workouts as well, SSBLV1 isn't too bad but SSB pt2 and whichever Build plan you go for are hard work. I went through the full Base-Build-Speciality cycle and by the end was pretty tired but that also included quite a bit extra done outdoors, weekly TSS was over 500.
When we get to the intensity of Tempo and above it becomes very individual as to what we find hard or easy. I'm fine on Sweet Spot and Threshold but really struggle on VO2max workouts. This may be an age thing - from reading I *think* that the FTP-MAP ratio changes as you age so that FTP is no longer 75% of MAP, it's more like 80% or even 85% so when the workouts ask for 120% FTP you aren't in the VO2max range but up in anaerobic!
Cheers guys - will possibly add in Pettit next week or maybe one of the Baxter workouts. I’m going a touch lighter on timings - I struggle to fit in 1.5 hours on a week day so virtually all my sessions are an hour or hour 15. Then in the weekend I’m typically doing an mtb ride of about 30km / 850m of climbing. Looking to drop off some weight as much as build more power / stamina. At 5’9 and 82kgs I think a drop in weight would benefit my hills climbing as much as building more power and stamina.
Pretty sure my endurance has already gone up - at the end of my last mtb ride I still had a suddenly burst of speed up a slight incline at pretty high Revs. I didn’t used to have that. My climbing is definitely improving too.
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/how-to-safely-add-volume-to-a-training-plan/
Bit of info here from there blog that might be relevant but I think it has been covered above.
I've been using Trainerroad since the New Year and I'm currently halfway through SSBLV II. I've been doing some of the workouts outdoors recently which is good when the sun shines. I'm currently doing 3 additional rides on top of the low volume plan but I don't know if this will be sustainable with build and speciality phases.
I'm just wondering how many people keep going with TR training throughout the year? Do you find that you can keep up with structured training as well as your normal outdoor fun rides?
I’m just wondering how many people keep going with TR training throughout the year? Do you find that you can keep up with structured training as well as your normal outdoor fun rides?
In the past I've found it quite hard to keep up TR year round. It's a bit easier to stay focused and disciplined when it's dark & cold outside but once the real world becomes more appealing I find it really hard to stay in the garage. That said, I'd usually have a training plan on the go over the summer as a bit of a guide but would get intensity from bunch rides, races and the odd hill rep session. When/if I go back to road racing again I'll probably make more use of the outdoor workouts feature but I'm happy to sacrifice a bit of physiological optimisation in the name of having fun.
Yeah, I like the structure of 3 training rides per week. This seems doable with additional fun rides and so far I have managed to avoid missing any workouts. The trails have dried out round here recently though and the temptation just to go and ride in the woods for fun all the time is strong!
Thread resurrection. Just dustin the turbo and getting ready to start up again on TR. Anyone else? Estimated FTP before I do a test in week or so (ie when im prepared enough:). Be interesting what adaptive training does?
I've just started a training plan in earnest. Only a week in so far am happy with how AT is treating things. I hate FTP testing with a passion so have gone with a good guess and am just hoping AT will keep serving me workouts I can do.
I've been doing Low Volume for the last 12 months and Adaptive Training has been brilliant. I couldn't always keep up with the suggested ramp rates under the old plans and got demotivated when I failed workouts.
Now my FTP has steadily increased and what is better is that AT will allow for some error in your FTP and serve you workouts that are doable (As long as you are completely honest with the post-workout surveys!). Big fan and eagerly awaiting the new system that will estimate your FTP for you without having to do a ramp test!
AT is new on me - I trained with TR quite a lot last Feb / March / April but when the weather got better I rode outside more.
I’ve done something to my foot so I get pain in the right on on the top / right hand edge. It had eased whilst I was riding less due to illness in Oct / Nov but as soon as I’ve done a few hard turbo sessions it’s back. Normal cycling didn’t seem to be an issue for it. So it’s either the pressure - or the shoe / pedal combo.
Wanted to try a ramp test yesterday at the start of a training plan so swapped to flat pedals with trainers and it seems to have gone down a lot better. Odd.
I can see AT has already revised (made easier) the initial training plan based on a few turbo sessions plus the ramp test so it looks like a good system so far 👍
I also like the 'TrainNow' button, I'd been using that quite a bit the last couple of months.
Had been planning on starting low volume base next week but IT band seems to be playing up so will have to see how quickly I get that under control
In-thread PSA. It seems TR have released some kind of clever robot that estimates your FTP for you.
Details on how to enable it over on the TR forum: https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/forum/t/introducing-ai-ftp-detection/69122?u=stevious
Seems to work OK for me.
Yep, worked for me too. I'd been using a made up number for the last couple of months, and have lately stepped things up and started to feel like I was sandbagging a bit. The AI estimated a 16 W bump, which I think is not far off. Though, as usual I'm slightly daunted now by workouts with the new setting (though the adaptive training magic has turned down my upcoming workouts accordingly so I'm sure it'll be fine!)
Why would you need it to estimate ftp - you could just do a ramp test?
Why would you need it to estimate ftp – you could just do a ramp test?
Because I hate doing ftp testing of any kind. My motivation for max efforts rarely coincides with test day.
I’m looking forward to my next ramp test - probably tomorrow. Expecting to see a bit of a bump up in ftp whilst at the same time having lost a bit of weight. Win / win.
Finding the sessions towards the end of the first have of my sweet spot low volume training plan a bit easy. That said I have tweaked them about as I’ve gone along as I don’t always have time for the full length sessions suggested.
On 231w ftp at the start of Jan at 77.2kgs. This morning I’m at 75.2kgs and hoping to see 250w ftp - I certainly feel a lot better out on the Mtb at the moment up hill.
Just took a quick look at the TR estimated FTP, doesn't rely on any max efforts...seems even more vague than the ramp test but probably gets you in the ball park if you're happy with that.
Well the idea is that it uses machine learning wizardry to make estimates without max efforts. They think it works (and have an awful lot of data), but I guess only you can decide whether its predictions are good enough for you.
I'm very sure that its prediction is close enough to what I would have got on a ramp test. Only needs to be close enough to be useful for setting future training, I'm not proving anything by the number. So how 'true' an FTP it is, is not really that critical.
For me though, it turns out to be irrelevant, because I broke my hip on Saturday! So my nice new FTP is wasting away as we speak...
The estimated setting is saying I’ve gone from 231w to 244w. Seems reasonable actually as I’ve been competing workouts a little easier than 6 weeks ago - but I’m going to do a ramp test later to compare and see what that comes up with.
On FTP tests, does anyone do the '5 minute max effort/recover/20 minute test' protocol?
Apparently it returns a more accurate FTP but I don't really care about 'accurate' as I'm not racing on Zwift and lie about my FTP to my riding buddies anyway 😎
I just don't see the point in the 5 minute max effort before the FTP test as I don't typically start my workouts with a 5 minute max effort so don't see how it is applicable...
Gray - sorry to hear about your hip!
On FTP tests, does anyone do the ‘5 minute max effort/recover/20 minute test’ protocol?
I use WKO which is modelled off 3 max efforts of short, medium and long durations...actually did a 20m test last week (with 5m effort) to verify mine out of interest, it was within a couple of watts.
Always believed the 5m effort is to burn off some of the anaerobic contribution...I do mine at 110%...so you're getting a purer aerobic result? Not really sure it makes a huge difference in as far as giving you a number to set your training zones off but it also serves as a decent warm up.
Ramp test will get you close enough unless you're one of the outliers!
Always believed the 5m effort is to burn off some of the anaerobic contribution…
Yep, exactly as I understood it, but my thoughts were that since I *don't* burn off that anaerobic contribution before any of my workouts, rides or (rare) races, what's the point? Feels like I'd end up basing my workouts on a slightly lower FTP but then still have that anaerobic contribution in reserve...
Although actually (this thought has just occurred), does the anaerobic system kick in for lower intensity workouts? e.g. if I'm just doing sweetspot am I relying purely on aerobic?
edit: I'm on a dumb turbo/rollers, can't do ramp test!
Ramp test on rollers would be interesting!
I read it as specific to the 20m interval, you can skew your result (albeit marginally) by contributing too much and subsequently setting your zones too high.
@13thfloormonk - I definitely read/heard somewhere that even z2 efforts have some anaerobic components but a quick bit of googling has just served up a bunch of confusing graphs.
I've never truly understood the need for the clearing efforts in FTP testing, but given that pretty much every protocol uses something to account for it I'm happy to trust the physiologists that it's needed.
I guess if you're only using your FTP to scale sweet spot efforts then you might still be able to do the workouts with higher FTP without doing yourself in. Personally, I'd rather stick with a lower number than go MOAR HARDER when it comes to training - I'd much rather have a bit left in the tank for dealing with other life stuff.
I guess in a perfect test you'd ride exactly at the point between production and clearance, the minute you tip over (or dip under) that point then your result drifts.
It's all an approximation of MLSS anyway?
But I'd agree it's possibly better to have it slightly lower and complete your workouts than too high and fail.
Yeah, I'm thinking the same.
Very quickly skim read a Trainer road article which suggested Sweet spot should be all aerobic, so if I've set an FTP with an anaerobic contribution then the sweetspot stuff will be harder rather than easier I guess.
Need to keep reminding myself that I'm only using virtual power on a set of rollers so I think there's a fairly hefty margin for error anyway 😎
I got some good results using virtual power with the TR plans...okay so maybe I was relatively under trained and almost any form of training would have got improvements.
Sounds like you're well on your way to getting a power meter/smart set up...
Also, I think adaptive training gives you loads of leeway in your FTP. In my experience it's pretty good at serving up stuff I can do and adjusting things based on how I find it. For example, I suck at long intervals so it gives me easy sweetspot/threshhold stuff compared to the VO2 stuff it's serving me.
So I got 238w on a ramp test vs the predicted 244w the new ftp estimation tool gave. Will run with the 238w for the next section of the plan and see how that goes. The workouts look harder with longer sweet spot and threshold efforts and some vo2 looking stuff after the initial base building.
I always think it would be good to do these side by side with someone else - would give that bit more motivation to push another 30 seconds - 60 seconds.
Easy to say in hindsight when your legs have started to recover.
what's gone on with Chad then? any speculation
I've been reading that today, probably best not to speculate but it seems serious one way or another. I felt Nate was emotional & drained behind the facade of the announcement.
I mean he looked like shit on the announcement, but his personal life has been difficult, and not 2/3 podcasts ago he mentioned mixing up his adhd meds and his sleepers, so what's Nate and whats because of the announcement? covid killed the podcast, was better when it was then together in a room rather than remote, it's rumbled on but never the same, but maybe after 400+ episodes it played it's part, I stopped tuning in when it go too focused on cape epic, which coincided with Nate not uploading anything to Strava until last month, there was rumours of him selling up last year, maybe the boat has been missed and it's now shit street with the post covid downturn
Nates clearly at a different point in his life than when the "journey" started,
Hi All
Doubtless a stupid question but does Trainerroad "count" Zwift rides automatically or do I need to manually match the Zwift ride to a Trainerroad workout (like with an unplanned outdoor ride) for Trainerroad to account for the Zwift rides in its calculations?
I assumed it automatically counted them but I've just had a dawning realisation that maybe not...