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@barrykellett - that's good to know 😊
@13thfloormonk - This is the workout I did today https://www.trainerroad.com/career/bobw/rides/68287868-kaweah (hopefully it's visible) I'm on a wheel-on trainer so the power trace is a bit variable. Beneath the graph are a couple of tables showing power, cadence, etc. for each interval and overall time in each power zone. Not sure what TP shows as I've never used that program. I don't have a HR monitor that works with my current setup so no data there but if it was it would appear as a red line on the image/graph.
The couple of seconds spent in Anaerobic are just short blips in moving to the big ring when starting the main intervals. Also I shouldn't have any time in VO2Max but that's probably a consequence of my FTP being a bit low, my current thought is that it's about 6-8W too low.
Nice, I like data! 😎
Does it keep a log over time though, e.g. weekly total time in each zone etc?
That's what trainingpeaks seemed most useful for, keeping a really detailed log over the days and weeks
Not sure about time in each zone over time, I've not looked for that. They do track TSS in the Calendar but I think that's it. Just had a search on their forums and it doesn't look like it does.
They (TR) do seem open to suggestions about new features but I suppose like every company they've got limited engineering resources and there's only so many things. If it's something that they think is useful/sellable/whatever then they'll allocate time/resources to it. I suspect that they don't want to simply replicate what other programs do.
@13thfloormonk - I used to use TR and TP alongside each other, partially for the stats that you mention, but also the CTL graphs and a few other things. I had a bit of a subscription bonfire to save money and decided that enough of TP and TR overlapped to drop TP. Not only do I not miss the extra stats, but having less data helped me think a lot more clearly about how I train (which is useful because I have to fit it around a young family now). Now I don't have to waste time looking at data that I'm not realistically going to do anything about (why do I need to know how long I've spent in ZOne 4 this week? I don't).
Cool, think I'll just do 'base' without TR's assistance, will just be easy winter road miles! Prob sign up April onwards with a ramp test to begin with.
why do I need to know how long I’ve spent in ZOne 4 this week? I don’t
I'm extra cautious now after too many injuries, was advised to build slowly e.g. 10% more per week, and obviously maintain 80/20 polarised split. Plus stats, I like stats.
I have TR invites available.
Gives you a free month then you can cancel.
Worth a go to see if it works for you.
3 available if anyone wants one.
Yes please Tom!
Will give me something to mess about with until I'm back on bike at least, then see if I want to sign up straight away or after doing my own base stuff.
Ta
Ive sent you a message.
Need email etc to invite
Palisade for me today. Kept to power and felt ok til last set when I was blowing. Struggled to get cadence back up to a level that seems to make things a bit easier. Last week of SSB1 ( recovery week) to do then I’m going to try and follow the custom plan after I sorted it out the other day. Feeling loads better in myself following a structured plan rather then just noodling round on zwift. Will be interesting to see what, if any improvements I’ve made to ftp.
I have 3 referrals too if anybody needs one.
Having a plan is great, I spent £100 on an evening with a pro coach, he pretty much confirmed what I already knew but it felt good to know it was the right plan, could commit to it confidently.
@13thfloormonk - you mean you just had a one off session not set up with a coach long term? That sounds pretty useful.
I'm going to start base for cx in Feb. Still planning on a couple more races before then but just messing around not structured training st the moment
This week's workouts were Taylor-1, Donner & Clark.
Taylor-2: Wasn't looking forward to this as I'd a bit of a lurgy when I woke up, maybe a reaction to something I'd eaten over the weekend. I also have felt a bit cold for the last day or so.
Anyway, needn't have worried as I found the intervals very straightforward, there was only one (the twelfth) that I didn't hit target power and that was because I wasn't concentrating. On average I was around 11W higher than target power. According to the table above that means I spent twice as much time in anaerobic as threshold. I wasn't struggling to get to the end of each interval lending more weight to my FTP being a bit low. So ...
I bumped my FTP to 250W.
Donner: As a result this felt much more like a threshold workout and getting to the end of the 12 minute blocks was a bit of an effort, not digging deep sort of effort but definitely needed concentration. The last 3 minutes of the final block was definite clock watching! I wasn't breathing particularly heavy so certainly sustainable if uncomfortable. In my current state 3x15mins at that intensity would be about my limit. If I hadn't increased my FTP I'd have been able to go a lot longer.
So to Clark: This was a matter of finding the right gear and resistance on the trainer so that I could spin up in it and not spin out on the 200% sprints. The ones I missed were about 5% off target. The Sweet Spot intervals were about right, the first couple of minutes felt hard then gradually easier. Those below 235W felt easy overall, perhaps not surprising as 238W puts me into threshold and I'm generally aiming a Watt or two higher just to avoid slipping under the target power.
So I think I'm about spotty dog with my guesstimated FTP. Next week I've got Bluebell, Jepson & Palisade.
Had some fresh legs today so fancied putting a dig into the turbo - Ansel Adams+1. Quite a hard one at IF 0.98, but short and sharp intervals are better for me so I'm usually ok with it if I'm fresh. Beforehand, though, I had do a workout that would give van der Poel himself pause - 2 hours Christmas shopping at the Trafford centre!
Just not conditioned for that sort of event - out of my league. Ended up cycling there and back with the kids which was a good call, felt OK when I got back. If we'd taken the car I'd be six pints in by now. Climbed on the turbo and first 2 or 3 intervals (135% 50 sec on 40 sec off) felt like there's NF way I'm completing this, but took a gut check and got on top of it - finished it pretty solid.
It's odd that Ansel Adams +2 drops the recovery to 30 secs, squeezing an extra interval into each block (nine rather than eight), and yet has only a very slight increase in IF of 1.01. It sounds quite substantially harder.
So I think I’m about spotty dog with my guesstimated FTP. Next week I’ve got Bluebell, Jepson & Palisade.
Pallisade is usually a good bellwether of your FTP estimate. I've given up FTP testing and just use my own judgement - the over-unders at the end of a block usually help me decide what to do with my FTP for the net block.
Serious question - why are some of you estimating your FTP rather than testing?
@john_l - I've tested (using the ramp test) and subsequent workouts have felt very easy, or at least easier than they should, so I bumped my FTP. Often once you've done a few workouts of a particular type, say VO2Max, then you know what they should feel like so you can adjust your FTP accordingly. The TR app lets you adjust your FTP on the fly anyway, better to knock a couple of percent off and complete the workout than abandon it.
@stevious - I've already done Palisade this time around, it was one of the workouts in SSBLV1, here's my notes:
First full workout after my cold. I'd pushed this back from last Friday and it's just as well that I did.
Hit just about all the power targets apart from the next to last under interval where I began to struggle a little bit. Had to dig in for the last two overs.
Oh, meant to say. The various test protocols will suit most people but some may find that they over or under achieve on them and so need to adjust the final figure. Whether I under achieved on my last ramp test because of the test itself or some other factor or factors I don't know but I do know that workouts that were meant to be at threshold, i.e.96%-105% of my FTP felt easy and more like Sweet Spot (88-94%) in that I was recovering slowly throughout the intervals which you shouldn't be doing at threshold.
Also the FTP value is only relevant within the context of Trainerroad to allow you to correctly target each workout. It doesn't really relate to outdoor riding and probably not to any other training software or program. It's just a number.
I did Ebbets plus one this morning. Last workout before Xmas as visiting family now for the rest of the week. Wasn’t too bad really. Did it at 6am so was fasted as well.
@13thfloormonk – you mean you just had a one off session not set up with a coach long term? That sounds pretty useful.
@Ferrals - sorry I missed this, yeah it was a one off session, started with a ramp test to give me a benchmark, then some physical tests to determine flexibility/bike fit issues, then basically a sit down talking through a lot of issues and questions I had, before producing a plan based around my free time and race dates, holiday dates etc.
There was nothing ground breaking, basically just a polarised 80/20 plan with some CX twists, but it gave me confidence to commit to a plan and also enough knowledge to adapt it, e.g. to make the most of a week's holiday in Girona.
Well woryh the money, arranged via Edinburgh Bike Fitting.
...although I could have done with more education about the need for strengthening as your training progresses, lack of dedicated, structured gym work and core strengthening has left me starting from square one again in the new year once I recover from lower back surgery, bye bye hard fought 3.4W/kg 🙁
Also the FTP value is only relevant within the context of Trainerroad to allow you to correctly target each workout. It doesn’t really relate to outdoor riding and probably not to any other training software or program. It’s just a number.
I'm amazed at how powerful a number FTP is, really. As you prob know there are Brexit-level arguments online about what the real meaning of FTP is, how physiologically relevant is it, but it's a fact that this simple parameter is sufficient for the vast majority of people to structure an effective training program around. And there's more - you don't even have to precisely measure the parameter! A substantially shortened test protocol is sufficient to benchmark it accurately for the majority of people.
TSS on the other hand I have no clue how that can be meaningful. A blood in the mouth 1 hr interval session is TSS 70. Go for a ride with your kids for a few hours bimbling around the bridleways - TSS 100.
Go for a ride with your kids for a few hours bimbling around the bridleways – TSS 100.
It's so easy for a bimble to actually be zone 3 though, and a few hours at zone 3 is no small matter, would still take a day or two to properly recover from?
Nah I'm talking properly taking it easy zone 1 for 2-3 hours can give you TSS 100+, at least on heart rate (my power meter is on my TT bike that I have yet to take out with the kids).
Just in general it seems to weight saddle time way more than intensity. Perhaps this is fine if you're logging big hours training for endurance events and it does in fact give an accurate picture. But the stuff I do is cyclocross and time trialling (25 max) so it seems like it's not that useful as a base parameter for fitness here. Particularly with respect to fatigue - one of the most valuable things TSS can give you (in principle) is a warning you're doing too much, but it doesn't seem to take proper account of intensity here IME.
@Garry_Lager - I didn't quite write what I meant!
An FTP value is only relevant to a particular bike setup in a particular environment. You'll have a different FTP outdoors to indoors. You'll have a different FTP on a road bike when compared to a TT bike.
That's not to say it isn't useful, it most definitely is! When you've several physiological adaptation zones spread across quite a narrow band of effort being able to zone (sic) in on the correct one is the difference between an effective training session and an ineffective one. You have to be reasonably accurate - one or two Watts either side of your True FTP isn't going to make much of a difference but a 5% error most certainly will.
TSS does seem weird. It looks like it's very much based on an hour's effort so long rides skew the value. Indoor and outdoor rides seem to be on their own scales - if I log some of my ITT rides I'll get values of 9000 or more! I've even had negative values but I think that's TrainerRoad's maths and some integer wrap-around. It's not a parameter for fitness but workload, I can't remember if it was in this thread or another but someone mentioned two parameters: Minimum Effective Effort and Maximum Recoverable Effort. If you use TSS as the values for those it makes more sense. So you might need to accumulate a TSS/MEE of 300 each week to see gains, if your MRE is greater than that then you can continue with that workload. If it's lower then basically you'll burn out.
MRE declines with age so at some point you'll find you can't recover from the work needed to improve so your overall performance will decline, or at least your potential maximum will decline. If you aren't close to your potential maximum then you'll see slow improvements for a while.
I’m really pleaseD to see this. In my 3rd and maybe final year of being coached, next year without a coach Trainerroad with a plan assist would be my go-to but it really needs to integrate with Zwift for longer rides / boredom relief.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">ive very much learned recently that FTP although a measure for zones is not the be all and end all. Mine has dropped 7% since I started a bias toward endurance but I sure am fitter and faster in z2/3. I sat on Alp du Zwift yesterday up and down in Z2 happily - I’m not a climber - and steadily passing people. It was great reminder that for longer events “raising the floor” is the key metric vs “raising the roof” - although some of that will come later. For me to tap out a significant climb at constant power for an hour is a real change to my physiology and mental approach. </span>
Almost 3 months into base and mine has steadily dropped, that’s using the modelled value from WKO4 which generally correlates well against tested efforts...have however noticed a welcome increase in Time to Exhaustion.
I base all my training on TSS, works out really well for me being time crunched, I’m targeting the right amount of time and intensity rather than racking up the hours which can be difficult.
If you need a break from TrainerRoad you can find similar workouts elsewhere which can be pushed to TrainingPeaks (needs premium) and picked up directly in Zwift. It’s good to have something different from time to time.
@Kryton57 - "raising the floor" is a good way of putting it. While raising my FTP would be nice, it's the sexy figure you can shout about, I'm more interested in being able to ride for ten hours at 75% of FTP rather than 70% (as an example). Of course I could raise my FTP and stay at 70% as a different way of getting there. Doing both would be even better!
However the workouts in TR (and presumably those available in Zwift) also allow you to find your weak spots so you either know what to work on when training or what to avoid when riding but probably a mixture of both. I did Jepson today and found it hard but really it's confirmation rather than illumination on a part of my performance that I suspected anyway. Bluebell was 1 minute at 120% FTP then 1 minute recovery at 40%, repeat lots. Easy enough for me that I bumped my FTP by 2% for the last set and still found the effort OK. Jepson was 3 seconds at 150% then two minutes at just under FTP done four times per set. Really hard to recover during those two minute valleys, 90% or even 95% would have been so much more manageable.
I’m glad I read thru the last few entries on here today. Did ramp test today after working thru SSBLV1 and was gutted that it went up all of 1 watt.!!!......but I feel loads better when I’m on the bike outside. Interesting to read about MRE and MEE above. I’m knocking on a bit now, 53 next week and have definitely noticed that I get fatigued easier than a few years ago. Not that I can’t finish the workouts but recovery is starting to take longer. My ftp is about same as last year ( tested on same turbo) but I’d be interested in your opinion. Do you think a ramp test result would be higher on a road bike than an Mtb. I’ve not been on TR for a while and whilst I realise it’s not the be all and end all I’m about 50 watts down on my peak from 3 or so years ago which was tested on a wheel on vortex with a road bike as opposed to now on an Elite Direto with an mtb?. Cheers and have a Good Christmas folks.
@teamslug - you are on a different bike and different measurement system so I wouldn't worry about the difference, you can only really compare like with like. No idea if you'd get a higher FTP on road or MTB, assuming same trainer, might depend on which position better suits you.
Recovery will take longer as you get older - a friend when he got to 65 said he could keep up with the club A ride on a Sunday but would then have to skip the next Sunday A ride as he hadn't fully recovered.
Elite Direto
An interesting coincidence but when I moved from a wheel-on turbo to my direto I swore it was harder and my ftp dropped also.
What gear do you use? I have an elite Direto and use the small chain ring on the front of my gravel bike for turbo work as it resembles the MTB small chainring more. My ftp dropped about 7w when I swapped from a wheel on tacx to the elite Direto about 6 weeks ago. I think it was prob a bigger drop than that in real terms as I def had made some improvements since my last test. Think that is just the accuracy though. Don’t find the workouts particularly harder though.
Recovery will take longer as you get older – a friend when he got to 65 said he could keep up with the club A ride on a Sunday but would then have to skip the next Sunday A ride as he hadn’t fully recovered.
I watch the arl fellas cx race and some of the V60 guys are well impressive - makes you think competitive cycling is absolutely the way forward for healthy aging. But then you don't see them laid out on the couch all week recovering from the race 🙂
Serious question – why are some of you estimating your FTP rather than testing?
I can't face the 20 min test too often and the ramp test under-estimates for me. I've got enough years for TR under the belt to know what some of the workouts should feel like and I think I have enough sense to be realistic about my FTP rather than trying to aim for a big number. As others have said, its one (really useful) measure of where your fitness is but it's not something to tie your self worth to.
I’m really pleaseD to see this. In my 3rd and maybe final year of being coached, next year without a coach Trainerroad with a plan assist would be my go-to but it really needs to integrate with Zwift for longer rides / boredom relief.
Run TR on a phone and Zwift on the computer and turn off the controllable bit on Zwift.
Ramp test on Christmas Eve to start Base and lost 6watts. Putting it down to tiredness etc. If I'd got through the last step I'd have been 5 watts up so I've gone with that as it seems more realistic. I'll adjust as needed. Normally I fail almost immediately on a new step rather than 10 to 20 seconds in.
@13thfloormonk - I'd seen this mentioned on the TR forums but hadn't looked at it until a thread popped up enquiring about logging Time in Zones - https://intervals.icu/ If you've got your TR account linked to Strava then it will pull the power data from there and give you your TiZ. Not the easiest method but it seems that it's about the best for the moment. I've only just started looking at what it shows you.
Well that was a tough three days!
Mills on Wednesday, Dawin yesterday and Mary Austin -1 today 😳
I'd postponed Mills due to riding outside, I found the VO2 Max intervals hard especially the descending target part, good job there were long recovery valleys. Darwin then got put back a day because its slot was taken up by Mills. Pretty much bread and butter for me. Which leaves Mary Austin.
That was hard! I think I'd prefer the old 20min FTP test to that. Maintaining power on the back side of each peak required a lot of focus and determination. In a lot of workouts I've exceeded the target power by five to ten Watts during intervals, so could have raised the intensity by a few percent. Not this time! I was mostly 1 Watt above, so basically target Power.
Did the ramp test this morning. Changing from TR virtual power to a real power meter for the first time. Unsurprisingly there was a massive change (downwards!); but it means I'm no longer elite level on Coggans scale and instead top end of Cat 4 which is more reasonable!
Being time constrained I did it as soon as I woke up; figured it was so short it wouldn't matter but I wonder if I'll get a better number in a few weeks if I do it at a better time and better fueled. Doesnt really matter as I just needed a number to work on for a week or two of CX type on-off intervals before my last race and I'll re-test after that before starting base.
One thing i noticed is my power is much more variable on a real power meter despite adding 2s power smoothing (on virtual I had raw). Will have to get used to that or add a bit more smoothing in.
If you plan on doing your rides fasted and on wake up then it may be sensible to stick with that FTP. If not you might need to bump it a bit if you find the workouts too easy (but that is easy to do).
I did Jepson yesterday morning at 5am. That was pretty tough but I made it through. I took a gel between the middle intervals but that might have been more mental than anything. I have got palisade over the weekend!
I noticed a huge drop when moving from virtual power on TR to Powertap pedals. Much more realistic number now! All academic as long as you're consistently using the same tool.
The variability takes some getting used to as well, especially on the road.
@ferrals - The variability on a real power meter is because it's logging power closer to the point of input, your foot/leg, than virtual power which is working it out after it's gone through the pedal, cranks, chain and wheel. Ultimately it's just a number. If your workouts are too easy then bump it up, too hard the drop it. So long as the value puts you in the right ball park for each workout so you get the desired benefits then it doesn't really matter how you get there - see a couple of paragraphs down.
This week's workouts were Spencer +2 (VO2 Max), Lamarck (Sweet Spot) and Leconte (Over/under threshold). All felt hard!
The first two were my eleventh and twelfth days in a row - not all indoors - so I was pretty weary. I'd moved Lamarck forward one day as I needed to make use of the fine weather on Wednesday for some work. I also moved Leconte back a day and just as well that I did - the valleys in the over-unders were really tough especially the ones just a couple of Watts below FTP.
A few weeks ago I bumped my FTP from 242W to 250W. I sort of guessed at the increase based on how I felt the over-unders had felt. The in-workout notes for Lamarck say to average the power for the four intervals as a good approximation for your FTP. Doing so gives 252W so my guess wasn't too far out.
@robbo1234biking - Palisade isn't too bad, probably one of the easier over-under workouts as there's a good rest between each set. Leconte (and Mary Austin) drastically shorten three of the rests to just a minute so you don't fully recover for sets 2, 4 & 6!
Near the end of Sweet Spot Base Low Volume 2, just the recovery week to do - I'll probably swap the workouts for something with the same TSS but a bit more interesting. Then it's General Build Low volume. After that I did have XC Marathon but I'm thinking something more suited to long distance, multi-day stuff.
@whitestone, robbo, thats my general thought... also all my planned workouts till I finish my season are vo2 max orientated where whether I'm actually doing 120% rather than 130% is neither here or there so long as I feel the burn.
Looking forward to making use of the 'ride outdoors' feature when I start base in mid-late feb.
I know you're not but first few weeks of base can feel to easy. Week 4 and 5 tend to be hard. Bumping up the first 2 weeks potentially makes the last 2 weeks really hard.
Palisade done. Was pretty tough but manageable. Training for Mountain Mayhem and Jennride. Ideally want to drop 40 to 50lbs before then so my focus is on weight loss as there will be more benefit to that than increasing the ftp.
I am trying to fuel the workouts but periodise my nutrition to allow me to complete the workouts but still have a calorie deficit.
Had a jam sandwich on the bike today. A quarter of a sandwich in each rest between the intervals. Had a big bowl of oat bran a couple of hours before hand as well.
I am doing a low volume plan concentrating on base and build as per plan builder but adding a 1 hour z2 ride once a week as I can handle more volume. This is a early fasted ride so should help the weight loss.
Well last week consisted of the following:
Mills
Colleseum-2 - additional workout I added in to add a bit more volume
Darwin
Mary Austin-1
They all went OK really - definitely much tougher overall and I was close to giving up on the last peak on Mary Austin but it was mostly psychological I think. This week I have got the last week of SSBLV2 (Spencer+2, Lamarck and Leconte) before a recovery week.
I used plan builder but I want to play around with it a bit once I have finished this block as I think I will get more benefit from base and build blocks of training than I will from any speciality phases.
I am trying to fuel the workouts but periodise my nutrition to allow me to complete the workouts but still have a calorie deficit.
Willing to bet large sums of money* you listen to the TR podcast. They sound like Coach Chad's words.
I'm on a forced break from training at the mo. Have had a play with plan builder, and I do like the fact that when I do start to get back to things, I'll be able to plug my goal event in and get a plan that will do the job.
*£1.28