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the units are irrelevant if consistent
Thats my one concern: given most people seem to think the virtual power matches reasoanbly well with real power, I wonder if my turbo isnt quite working right, in which case it might be that the curve of the actual turbo and the one they have may be differnet and so the relative efforts will be wrong. To be honest even that is only an issue for over-under type efforts.
I'd like a real power meter one day but its well down the list of items to spend money on.. and they would need to drop significantly in price before I was convinced it was a good investment
Velotech are doing £200 off Rotor InPower at the moment.
Velotech are doing £200 off Rotor InPower at the moment.
Still a chunk of money even if you already have a Rotor chainset!
TR is just making me tired and hungry. Into week 3 of Sweet Spot Base. I struggle mentally with sweet spot intervals - my brain seems to be able to cope better with intervals where you batter yourself as it's easier to forget about the time left or what the next interval is, it's just flat out.
I don't now what you're all moaning about. I'm on 15s sprint on, 2 mins off x 4 hours, Z4 TT efforts for 2 hours and Z2 for 2 hours a week.
Its ok though I get Tuesdays off...
Kryton57 - Member
I don't now what you're all moaning about. I'm on 15s sprint on, 2 mins off x 4 hours, Z4 TT efforts for 2 hours and Z2 for 2 hours a week.Its ok though I get Tuesdays off...
That sounds properly tedious 🙂
Have found that focusing on the pedal and form drills help during the longer intervals, also trying to keep the power as accurate as possible helps pass the time...no erg mode here.
Also bought a decent fan last week, highly recommended if you’re not already using one. I used to struggle with anything over an hour but I’m already noticing how much the better things are with it and pushing on to 90 minute sessions quite comfortably.
15s sprint on, 2 mins off x 4 hours
A four hour session of 15s / 2 min sprints?!
Is this the Torq stuff Kryton?
Not all at once!
But yes. I may have lied about some thing's to keep my training secret but the general gist is about right.
Brutal. I find I don't have the mental capacity for more than about 1 hour 30 on a trainer in one go. Sweamrs has in the past done 2+ hours and I can't fathom it.
Midway through SweetSpot base pt 2 currently and remembering just how unpleasant VO2 work can be.
I did 2:50 on Zwift the other day. I couldn't do it as a workout, luckily it was a very interactive group ride.
I think the KISS 100 took me 3hrs the other year. My weekly Pretzel rides were around 2.5 I think too.
Longest TR session was 2hrs plus a bit of trainer warmup time beforehand but I also had Zwift running on the big TV and Danny Howard's Dance Anthems on iplayer radio 😆
I think I prefer indoor training now. Since I've gotten a little bit quicker, you have to go so bloody far outside and that exposes you to more and more inconsistencies for holding the right power.
I'm clinging to the hope that for 60minute races, I don't really need the deep aerobic fitness that can only be cultivated by multiple hour rides anyway. Some of Coach Chads work-arounds are actually pretty clever, like the Vo2 max intervals with 30minutes Z2 tacked on the end. Hardest Z2 I ever did! Even the last lap of a 4hr Brass Monkeys never felt that hard.
On TR for longer rides just put together a ride with blocks at different power levels, all around z2 and z3 ([url= https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/4536358-kennedy-peak-mod- ]example[/url]). Helps the time pass.
I'm clinging to the hope that for 60minute races, I don't really need the deep aerobic fitness that can only be cultivated by multiple hour rides anyway
That was my hope this cx season too as time crunched earlier in the year. I'm massively feeling the lack of long rides now. Admittedly I've not done much properly structured training this year, but I did quite a lot of 1.5 - 2hr hard rides and xc races thinking it would be enough for cx durations but I'm flagging by 40mins in.
Agree about liking indoor training, seems like when time is at a premium you get a better beasting on the turbo
I've found it amazing how slowly time can pass 😆 I sometimes put the towel over my phone and aim for a landmark on Zwift instead. Gutting when you get there, uncover the towel and still have 3 minutes left 😀
Other tactics include slow counting down in my head so the interval ends before I've reached zero, watching YouTube clips 1 minute longer than the work effort, playing 'interval buster' tracks on my iTunes and dissecting the work efforts into Hillingdon lap times! The imaginary '3 laps to go' board is always more motivating than thinking 'last 8 minutes!' 🙂
Any effort of any power now is in the bag with 40 seconds to go. Once that clock hits 0.39, my power generally increases right to the end. It used to be 20 🙂
Bays for me this morning. Up early and done by just gone 7. Good workout, the intermittent sprints keep the endurnace side of things interesting. Really enjoying being back on the turbo, looking at the weatehr forecast I'll be turboing all weekend. Planning on either Dade+2 or Sassafras tomorrow and then Bondcliff on Sunday. By which point I'll have almost done week one of the cx plan compressed into Thurs - Sun (misisng whichever session I don't do).
Happily plugging along and enjoying the time saving nature of turboing at the moment. Kind of wish I'd done more turbo stuff earlier in the season.
What the consensus with planning a training year: next year I'm naively hoping I'll have a bit more time and less stress so am planning on properly structuring my year around the cx season (Sept - Decemeber). Do you aim to finish the speciality phase prior to the first race of the season or be half way through or something? I sort of think finishing speciality prior to the first race would lead to peaking too soon.
Interested in this also, I currently have three 'A' events which are based start, middle and end of season - although quite loose at the moment since dates aren't officially out for two of them but I've used the weekends that correspond to last year's calendar.
My build period ends shortly before my first event as set out by Training Peaks ATP, all my TrainerRoad plans are set out backwards from this period but there's no room to fit Specialty.
The TR road race plan looks like a load of VO2 stuff from a quick scan, thinking I may just keep following the Training Peaks limiters since I'd generally be doing VO2 and training bashes in this period anyway.
Hey Ferrals and Haze!
There are a few options when it comes to extending a season, I'll go ahead and outline the possible options and when each option is the best choice.
Extending your Peak:
This method allows you to drag out your peak for a maximum of 8 weeks. To do this, you will simply repeat Specialty Weeks 7 and 8 upon completion of your Specialty Phase. This works well for CX because you maintain a relatively stable level of fitness for nearly the whole season. You essentially will work backwards from your last race of the season to see when you should start. The progression would look like this:
Sweet Spot Base (12 weeks)
Build (8 Weeks)
Specialty (8 Weeks)
Peak extension (8 Weeks)
Final race of the season
Another option is what we call a Re-Build. This is best for seasons where you want to continue to build fitness after your first specialty, and when your races are spaced apart adequately. This method has you return to Build phase after completing your first Specialty. The progression would look like this:
Sweet Spot Base (12 Weeks)
Build(8 Weeks)
Specialty (8 Weeks)
Build(8 Weeks)
Specialty (8 Weeks)
This method allows you to have two separate "peaks", with the second peak being at a higher level of performance. Haze, looking at your season it looks like you are unlikely to be able to hold peak for your entire season. Without knowing the spacing of your events, it is hard for me to say the best route through, however keep in mind that you can still race extremely competitively after completing Build, especially in the early season.
I hope that gives you guys some helpful guidance, happy training!
Peaks will be early April, late June and possibly late August...fully expecting to drop off a little I n between (but remain competitive, B races and train through C etc).
Cheers for the reply Bryce, will see how I can work things in when the dates firm up
4 weeks in now. Sweet spot base intervals now a lot less unpleasant than they were last week so must be getting fitter (coming from a very low base though!) Amazed I've managed to be fairly consistent and actually last 4 weeks. Another 2 weeks of this plan to go and then I guess another FTP test. Not sure I'm looking forward to that!
Well done Simtron! Just think how pleased you'll be when you get a better score though...
Started off on SS base when my collarbone was recovering, moved to trad base, but outside - so broadly following the TR plan but using HR instead of power and riding as much as possible off road as 6 months off has not done much for my skills!
Retested 3 times since July though and good news is that fitness seems to be returning nicely.
Good work John. Please try not to break yourself again 🙂
Thanks Bryce. Useful information!
John L, using HR to replicate TR is my approach when i can get outside too. Works well I find
Cx plan, would normally be outside on w/e but ill and it's raining so did the prescribed workout of Tecumseh. Enjoy workout like this but struggled so probably am properly ill, feel wrecked now too. Nicer day tomorrow so will just do a easy outside spin I think
Newbie to TrainerRoad here, training for a few XC marathons next year and currently quite unfit.. starting with sweet spot base. Would it be recommended to use my MTB that I will actually be racing on my smart turbo or use my road bike? Turbo work is my only option for winter training as where i live I would need ice tyres and it's a bit too cold out for most of the winter.
I don't think it makes a difference what bike you use to turbo on. After all, many MTB riders train a lot on road bikes - if you're not using yours during the winter I'd set it up on the turbo and leave it. Means less faff in setting up each time.
Hey Eugeo81!
My name is Bryce Lewis and I work for TrainerRoad 🙂
Since you won't be able to ride your MTB outdoors during the winter, I would definitely recommend setting your MTB up on the trainer. We are talking marginal gains here, but by doing all of your training on your race bike, it ensures that you build up your muscles specifically for that fit. Your road bike and MTB likely have slightly different angles, seat height, bar drop etc. so if you were to train on your road bike, you lose out on some specific advantages that you gain by training on the MTB.
Cheers,
Bryce
I find the turbo is so different to outdoors riding that I doubt using the same bike would yield any tangible benefits for me - although I guess if it's laid up for a cold winter then there's no reason not to stick it on there.
I use a time trial bike on my turbo and find holding position on the aero bars to be hugely uncomfortable, like intolerable for over a minute or two. Outside on an actual test it is fine [well it's never comfy but it's never even an issue on a ten]. OTOH some testers train their position on the turbo no bother so I guess we're all different.
I finished the meaty part of SSB1 about ten days ago and got my PB Crit result the following Saturday. After a xmas break, I plan on starting SSB2 on Tuesday with an ftp test of course!
However, I figured I could squeeze one in today and then if I messed it up, have another crack on Tuesday.
Well despite my reservations, SSB1 gave me a good lift! Up from 324 to 336! Very pleased with that and excited about pushing onwards again now.
I know HR is flakey at the best of times but interestingly, my HR maxed out at 187 last test. This time, I was at 191 with ten minutes to go but held it until the end.
So perhaps my hunch was right and my ftp hadn’t moved far- I just went harder today??
Anyway, thanks Coach Chad- top bombing!
Hey Crosshair!
This is the reason we warn against taking Heart Rate too seriously because it can cause a bit of unease and second guessing. A heart rate difference of 4 bpm is not anything to be concerned about and could easily be thrown off by caffeine consumption, time of day, hydration level or many other factors.
The most likely contributing factor was your level of freshness during the test. If you were more fresh during the first test, this can alter your heart rate's response significantly.
So in other words, congrats on your new hard-earned FTP 🙂
Back on the sweet spot base mid vol. started last tues quite pleased to see my ftp not massively different to last year despite much less training. Mount field today, enjoy that workout, easy to complete but leaves the legs feeling like they've done something,
Bryce Lewis - I use elite volate mag force elastomer gel with virtual power (level 4) - I'm sure the power curve is way way off, it's giving me an ftp of 332, ftp/kg of 5.56. As I'm a mid pack racer that can't be even remotely close. Any ideas?
Wow! I bet you hope it isn’t wrong
Four weeks into SSB high volume here, I was worried I couldn’t cope with that amount of training stress but hanging in there so far. I’m hoping it’s not because I didn’t push hard enough in my first FTP test
@Brycelewis- thanks! I think you are spot on- a good argument for having the hr data out of sight perhaps.
@Ferrals- Whatever is wrong (if indeed it is) I’d leave it until SSB2, otherwise you’ll need to retest your ftp 😆
I did my workout outdoors today and regretted it. Stupid traffic lights, cars, traffic calming and junctions made 3x12 @ Threshold pretty tough to fit in. Got close enough albeit with slightly longer recovery’s.
I’m weighing up my options for Build at the moment. I got great results with Sustained Power Build last time but tempted by short power this time. If nothing else, it will illustrate the difference to me personally.
I may have a long hard look at my limiters nearer the time...
@jonnyboi- crumbs! Big respect here for that. Mid volume is definitely the tops for me and most weeks I’m eyeing up the ‘Skip’ button on Petit or whichever Wednesday Z2 is scheduled 😆
Biggest problem is finding clean bib shorts every day 😉
I did my workout outdoors today and regretted it. Stupid traffic lights, cars, traffic calming and junctions made 3x12 @ Threshold pretty tough to fit in. Got close enough albeit with slightly longer recovery’s.
Was some good work there CH. I reckon hitting an interval target outdoors is tougher than indoors as you're constantly going over and under with changes of gradient, wind, traffic, etc. Having to cope with a range of cadence and all the little accelerations and decelerations. Although conversely some people seem to find it easier.
Biggest problem is finding clean bib shorts every day
Try doing it outdoors. Bib shorts, longs or warmers over the top, base layer, jersey, gilet, socks, cap, gloves, overshoes... every day! And then there's the bike... 😕
I guess for outright training stress- a +/- 20w ERG session would be better. I’d have got my 36mins of Threshold and not an ounce more fatigue than needed.
Whereas 240 and 470 are not what I was intending to see during the work efforts despite my average being pretty much within 5watts at the end.
Arguable either way I suppose. Indoors more mentally taxing but ‘better’ stress Vs ripping along outdoors being more realistic and FUN but also less efficient.
Indoors ticks more boxes for me most of the time but I have to keep my eye in 😉
Yes, likely it's a balance. Done winters with way too much turbo in the past (due to small kids, job) thinking I'm going well, good numbers etc. Then go ride outdoors and really struggle to get near those numbers due to all the variation. Though everyone seems to cope with this differently. For me outdoors is "better" stress as I'm training with all the variation that I need to be able to cope with, more specificity I suppose. But then it's not so easy outdoors to safely do those sessions where you finish lying on the floor in a pool of your own sweat and drool 🙂
Yes- I wouldn’t fancy much more duration or intensity than today down the A4- let alone a TT hey? 😆
Despite the fact I can feel the riding position is a little different, I don’t seem to have a problem transferring my indoor numbers outside. Or the other way around really. (That’s with the same PM)
My hunch is that I actually perform slightly better indoors but the greater motivation of racing or being outdoors helps me hit the same numbers.
The SNAP must be a good match inertia wise for the flat riding i’m targeting- although in ERG mode, I’m not sure the differences are as pronounced anyhow.
Have any if you guys tried the new TR ramp test for FTP? I had a go - first calculation put my FTP quite a lot higher than I believed. They then tweaked the algorithm which out it bang on!
No- looks interesting though! What percentage of FTP did you reach Gray?
Erm, about 133%. Word is that they're doing the calculation based on best 1 minute and best 5 minute power in the test, but I don't really get how that can be much different from being simply based on how high you get. Assuming the test is properly executed, anyway.
I got a Neo yesterday BTW. My Vortex was getting too annoying. So far I like it.
Wow! I bet you hope it isn’t wrong
Haha no I hope it is wrong because otherwise my belief I'm a pretty good cx bike handler is way way out 😆
I've mentioned it here before and I know that as it's just virtual power it's just arbitrary numbers and so long as they are consistent from a training point of view it's fine, however it would be nice to have a better idea of real ftp for willy waving purposes 😆
I half wondered if it was my turbo being a bit damaged or something but when googling I saw a different post from a few years ago who had the same issue (think they said they could consistently spin at 500w for ages according to virtual power 😯 ) and reckoned the power curve for the trainer was wrong. They ended up using a different trainer curve which they felt was more realistic. Hopefully Bryce can chip in, otherwise I'll email their support when I get a chance.
.Have any if you guys tried the new TR ramp test for FTP? I had a go - first calculation put my FTP quite a lot higher than I believed. They then tweaked the algorithm which out it bang on!
Interesting, although I’m loathe to move away from a 20min test as at least I get a consistent reference point
Hey @ferrals!
Regarding the power curve for your trainer, with Mag trainers especially the curves can be shifted quite significantly in the production models of the trainer. The magnetic actuator can also wear, producing less resistance than it did when it came out of the factory. It sounds like you already have an understanding of VirtualPower consistency and how it doesn't really matter what the numbers are as long as they are the same from ride to ride.
The not-so-great news is that we don't have a better way to estimate your power. Without using a power meter on your own trainer, we have no way to map your specific level of wear and tear/ factory resistance discrepancy. Therefore, the best we can do is choose a different power curve that seems more reasonable. Since you are using the Level 4 resistance level on the trainer, selecting the Level 3 resistance level in the VP settings will ultimately lower your power readout to a more reasonable wattage.
If this is something that you are interested in trying, do the following:
1. Test out the Level 3 curve to see if the numbers are closer to what you would expect. Also, try out the Level 2 curve.
2. Once you find the curve that most closely resembles the power you expect you're putting out, go ahead and reach out to support@trainerroad.com and ask them to reprocess your ride with the new power curve.
3. This will allow you to change your FTP to fit the new power curve without having to re-test.
Cheers!