TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

Wow! Dr Andrew Coggan losing the plot with Sufferfest over on Slowtwitch!! 😮

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Sufferfest_4DP_P6456277/

So, I've 2hrs of dedicated consistent watts Z2 tomorrow with 40km winds to contend with. This has "turbo" written all over it, by omg the boredom.

What do people do, just watch a movie or something?

just watch a movie or something

Yup. Though tend to prefer a box set of something as the time seems to go a bit quicker. Or maybe a CX race on youtube.

Wow! Dr Andrew Coggan losing the plot with Sufferfest over on Slowtwitch!!

I struggle with long sentences... but he is right, obviously it's nothing new, which is why it's slightly surprising that more sites that build plans for you don't consider it. They take the prescriptive approach rather than the descriptive. Basically what Coggan says here...

Despite my efforts, many (including Sufferfest, at least up until now) have naively and mistakenly used my system to PRESCRIBE training, often via "canned" programs/workouts that don't entail direct input from a coach/direct interaction with the athlete.

Though I guess if you're serious about training you probably either know this or have a coach that knows this, and tailor your sessions accordingly.

Now Training Peaks are distancing themselves from Dr Coggan!

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/new-training-methodologies-road-ahead/

Yup. Though tend to prefer a box set of something as the time seems to go a bit quicker

I forgot to think about a DVD when I ordered my Zwift laptop ffs...

Can i do two hrs at z2 looking ar Zwift? I know the road ride will be erratic.

and the new 4DP training methodology from our [b]partners[/b]

thats when i stopped reading

Kryton, nothing to stop you creating a Zwift workout at the exact power you wish to ride. Then choose a nice scenic route but engage workout mode and let ERG control your power. Your avatar will be going slower up the hills and veritably whizzing down them but you get the best of both worlds 🙂

(Or using a suitable TR endurance ride in ERG mode and letting Zwift see your power)

@Kryton, XC races on YouTube if you can find one you haven't seen, by the time you add some pre-amble and podium presentation it usually come to 2hrs.

Terrible time of year to be starting chipping away at the mental reserves though - only so many indoor z2 rides a man can take in a season.

Kryton, nothing to stop you creating a Zwift workout at the exact power you wish to ride.

I can download my workout as .zwo and upload to Zwift for the exact criteria.

only so many indoor z2 rides a man can take in a season.

Luckily this is the last one for the next few months. It going to be windy down South tomorrow but if its not too bad i will go out rather than sit on the patio for 2 hours.

XC races on YouTube if you can find one you haven't seen, by the time you add some pre-amble and podium presentation it usually come to 2hrs

Thanks

Do other people fear doing an FTP test? I dislike the idea of resting for 3 or 4 days (in preparation for the test) and I also know it's gonna hurt. I always put it off. Is this normal behaviour?

Is this normal behaviour?

Yes!

Managed 90mins of Z2 outdoors total 2:20 ride time. So hard to stay in the zone in this gusty weather. The last few miles was so slow due to the headwind that I was on the verge of falling off balance.

Need another 30 mins so thats a 1/2 turbo Z2 later this evening, giving me a chance to play with my new Zwift setup.

Yes, I get nervous beforehand. Especially the one before last when I knew it was going to be a reduction. I think that makes pacing harder.

I think it's wise to do them more frequently so you start to normalise them a bit.

I think TR helps too because 20mins at Threshold is far nicer than many of the workouts 😀

On the Podcast, Nate often talks about those rides where you wonder if your PM is incorrectly calibrated. Tonight was one of those.

Did Picket Guard and it felt very manageable for a set of under/overs. I was actually able to recover 8-10bpm during the unders and my HR barely tickled Threshold until the very last over.

So fingers crossed, my FTP has gone up even more.

I'm switching from week 8 of Sustained Power Build to the final week of the Criterium specialty plan before my race next Saturday.

My FTP test to set the level of training for Sweetspot Base 1 won't be until the 07th Nov but I'm quietly confident that Coach Chad will have given me +30w in 9 weeks.

Very pleased with that 🙂

Sounds good, well done! I'm planning to get back into it shortly, from a protracted period of inactivity. Rather looking forward to feeling fit again, and losing a bit of lard!

Thanks!
I started off on MyFitnessPal for the first week but couldn't stick to a deficit. I ditched it in favour of eating whatever I fancied. My appetite hasn't increased with the workload though so I've still lost 6lb which is a nice bonus.

As I mentioned to MrBlobby, I'm a little concerned that the TSS drop when I switch to Sweetspot Base will mean I'll struggle to maintain my gains but I'm planning on adding in a Zwift race each week too so will see how that goes for a month.

Do you absolutely need to hang on to your gains in FTP if you are successfully growing your base though? I guess it depends on the timing of your goals.

Your plan does sound sensible though - if you can do the required work to develop your base but keep doing some top end stuff to maintain that, then it's a win win.

That's a good question. My hunch is that the sheer volume of Sweetspot I'll be doing will keep hold of it anyway. The Zwift race should keep enough top end for any Winter Crits I manage to do.

Everything I can find in their archives of podcasts/blogs implies that TSS is more useful for measuring progression relative to last and next week's workouts rather than the different phases. Hence why the TSS drop when you move to Specialty doesn't matter as you're now working on the icing whilst maintaining the cake rather than baking a bigger cake.

Mmmmm..... cake 😀

For the next 2 weeks im on a TSS of 780 😯

This week will be 544 in 7h15 mins and it's as much as I have the energy for really.

Even the High Volume version of Sustained Power Build doesn't go above 650 😮

Respect for tackling that 8)

I’ve taken average TSS for the last 12 months, added 10% and let Training Peaks prescribe the weekly requirement.

Following Sweetspot Base low volume, then padding out the shortfall with a midweek endurance/speed skills session and a weekend club run to keep things interesting. Later in base will start adding force reps etc. after the cafe run.

None of this takes any winter racing into consideration though, tbh I’d probably just train through unless it was something I was specifically targeting...or add some VO2 stuff and sprints somewhere which I guess you’ll be doing with Zwift.

[i]I think it's wise to do them more frequently (FTP test) so you start to normalise them a bit.[/i]

You're right. Did FTP test this morning and having reflected on the previous couple of tests where I blew up way too early, I changed my tactic and managed to produced an increased FTP I'm happy with and know reflects my fitness. Only a little bit of vomit along the way. 😀 Don't feel so intimidated about them now that I can see it's all about technique.

Out of interest, how much does everyones summer and winter TSS vary by? In summer I was averaging between 700 and 850 TSS a week but now switching to turbo/short intervals over winter I’m lucky to hit 600 a week even though I’m riding 6 days a week.

Hi all. I have had a search around but cannot seem to find an answer - is it possible to complete TrainerRoad sessions with a heart rate monitor alone?

For example if I wanted to do a couple of sessions a week outdoors without the ability to measure virtual power, can I still follow the workouts or are they all power based intervals?

For example if I wanted to do a couple of sessions a week outdoors without the ability to measure virtual power, can I still follow the workouts or are they all power based intervals?

Edit: Above obviously applies to any power based interval, not just TR workouts

My FTP test to set the level of training for Sweetspot Base 1 won't be until the 07th Nov but I'm quietly confident that Coach Chad will have given me +30w in 9 weeks.

Got bored of rest week and may be heading to Hillingdon with Nath on Monday so I jumped ahead and did my Sweetspot Base FTP test today.

Finished up on 340w dead for 323ftp. So Sustained Power Build lifted me from 296 to 323 in 8 weeks and my highest of the year.
I think that's a nice positive way to start Sweetspot Base 🙂

I dusted off my trainer last week. Started Sweet Spot Base LV1 and FTP came out at a whopping 1.86w/kg. I suspect it'll be somewhere close to what Chris Froome is putting out at the end of the 6 weeks. If it's not I want my money back.

I have zero doubt it will be mate- that's how much TR Coolaid im drinking these days 😆

CH you back on TR then? What about the Zwifting?

I might give TR a go again this winter, though my subscription has lapsed. Just starting to ride regularly again after too long a break with only sporadic riding. A bit distressing to feel so tired and weak on the bike with seemingly zero endurance, but a couple of weeks of daily riding should have it all feeling more normal again.

MrBlobby- done little but TR for 9 weeks. I do them on Zwift so it feels like I've been somewhere 😆

Im letting my TR sub lapse, but only becuase im coached now and the software we are using downloads sessions in Zwift format.

Having said that ive spent most of the time so far hanging over the bars staring at the floor in desparation.

4 weeks of sweetspot and with watching my diet a little more closely I’ve already dropped 1.5Kg...any adjustments in FTP to be determined in a fortnight, but certainly feel like I’ve noticed some improvements.

Could just be psychological due to the return to structured training?

Just looking at the cyclocross speciality plan.. I'm sure they've made the time for the mid volume longer.

Anyway, had an easy week so far since racing Sunday so planning an FTP test tomorrow then about a month of the cx plan while our season is still ongoing. I tried the ftp tst a couple of weeks ago and had to bail specatularly, if i've maintained ftp since when I tested last in January I'll be happy but am expecting a drop

ferrals - Member

Just looking at the cyclocross speciality plan.. I'm sure they've made the time for the mid volume longer.

Anyway, had an easy week so far since racing Sunday so planning an FTP test tomorrow then about a month of the cx plan while our season is still ongoing. I tried the ftp tst a couple of weeks ago and had to bail specatularly, if i've maintained ftp since when I tested last in January I'll be happy but am expecting a drop

Last year I was managing the Tuesday and Thursday TR CX sessions and either doing the wednesday session, or if fatigued a 1/2 hour spin or a 20 minute jog.

This year I'm not recovering as fast (too tired from work/baby!) so not sure I could do that with racing, up till now I've been still riding outside and doing a steady easy-moderate effort ride tues and some form of hard intervals on thurs, before openers sat, racing sun.

However I'm not racing this w/e or next and I won't do well at the race at the end of Nov (its always a grass crit) so am willing to be sub optimal for that in order to be as fit as I can be ready for the regional champs (assuming ours happen then which is still up in the air).

FTP test didn't go well,last test in Jan was 367 now 316. Could probably have pushed harder, I do find with a nine speed cassette I can't get the perfect cadence/resistance combo. I also think I'm so used to short jabs and micro recovery that 8minutes is pretty daunting. On the first interval I was happily sitting just above the predicted power for my original ftp for two minutes and then my legs crashed 😳

Also sadly think the drop is reasonable as done no proper structured training this year.

Will probably run sessions at 105% which I assume, unless tr does something funny, gives me a ftp of 330 and see how I go.

ferrals, are you actually any slower than you were in Jan last year? Riding at 110% threshold for 2x8 mins on a turbo is a very artificial exercise. Do a few 15 min interval steady state sessions for a couple of weeks and you'll probably find next time you test it'll have gone up quite a bit. You won't be any quicker in the real world but you'll test better.

I've not done any proper turbo intervals since around March of this year. I expect if I were to test it'd go much the same way as yours.

I'll likely start doing a bit of turbo soon as there are some specific sessions I want to do over winter, but going to start low and build up gradually 🙂

367 is a hell of a lot of power, unless you're huge. What do you weigh?

ferrals weighs about as much as my 5 year old son 😆

Wow! 376 is a bit tasty! Hopefully regaining will be easier 😉

I've had two tests where I've paced ambitiously and died a horrible death! Not fun. Guess the bonus of the 8 minute test is a chance for redemption!

I was thinking about the TSS thing and actually, the fact I've seen a rise in FTP means that a lower weekly TSS in Sweetspot Base shouldn't actually be entirely that much less work?
Ie 400 TSS at the new ftp would actually have been 416 TSS calculated on the older, lower ftp.

Took a month off TR to try and shift a semi-permanent cold (3 months and counting). Still have a cold and my FTP has dropped by 30w. 🙁

Finding almost all sessions really hard at the moment.

ferrals, are you actually any slower than you were in Jan last year?

A bit, top end wise probably not, but endurance is lacking, what with the baby my longest ride this year has been about 2.5hrs so in races I'm startign to fade after 40 minutes.

I agree with you on the artificiality of it though, but it does ring true with my feelings on my current fitness.

ianpv - Member

367 is a hell of a lot of power, unless you're huge. What do you weigh?

Should have said this is TR virtual power, I've never believed the actual numbers, just look at the changes. I weigh about 9 stone, and I'm not that fast so the numbers are way out!

crosshair - Member

Wow! 376 is a bit tasty!

see above - not real power... I wish it was! I'd be going to the national trophy on the weekend not wondering if I can break back into the top ten of our egionsal league 😆

Riding at 110% threshold for 2x8 mins on a turbo is a very artificial exercise. Do a few 15 min interval steady state sessions for a couple of weeks and you'll probably find next time you test it'll have gone up quite a bit. You won't be any quicker in the real world but you'll test better.

MrBlobby- not wanting to reignite the whole indoor outdoor thing but I really do think it depends on your event and your Turbo. I had no trouble on my solo session at Hillingdon a few weeks ago replicating an interval session I'd been doing on Trainerroad- the cadence, inertia and position were all very transferable, it felt very similar and my body was able to go "ah, I remember these!" and do the same effort- albeit at slightly less consistent wattage but close enough over the course of the interval.

What didn't work was doing 8 weeks of 95-110rpm intervals in a forward leaning, pseudo-aero position an then trying to translate that into CX fitness at 75rpm on horrendously draggy grass!

So whilst I agree that more specificity is better- I don't think intervals are necessarily unspecific 🙂

MrBlobby- not wanting to reignite the whole indoor outdoor

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😉

In this case I was mostly responding in the context of ferrals original post, being mostly based around CX racing.

see above - not real power... I wish it was! I'd be going to the national trophy on the weekend not wondering if I can break back into the top ten of our egionsal league

6.4W/kg would be more pro tour than national trophy! But as you say though the units are irrelevant if consistent. That said, when I went from virtual power on my kurt kinetic to real powertap power my FTP went up - easiest 10W improvement I ever made 🙂