TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

Regarding the new ramp test @gray, the first iteration also overestimated my FTP and was bang-on with the new formula. I'm really happy to hear that we are working in the right direction for you as well 🙂

We are working on tweaking variables, and we really appreciate everyone who has tested and given us feedback.

Cheers!

Nice one, thanks Bryce!

PSA: I have a free month trial of trainer road available. Would best suit someone who rides turbo regularly, has a power meter, and is interested in a structured training programme,

so please don’t ask for it on a whim if you’re not going to use it. Cheers

Did Huffaker 45 last night - failed to hit the 4th and 5th interval targets but managed the 6th. Grim. My first VO2 max type session for a while though so I might repeat it in a few days to compare.

Just thought I’d poke my head in here and ask a quick question...

Ive just signed up to Trainerroad to take advantage of their structured training plans. I started following a plan back at the beginning of October (outside of TR) which gave me a solid 3 months of base training. I’ve been training about 12 hours a week since then with an adaptation week every 4th week. This is my first season following a proper training plan.

I’ve just picked up and started the High Volume Short Power Build plan and I’m a couple of weeks into it. So far so good. It’s an 8 week plan and I’ve got a week in Gran Canaria to look forward to at the end of that. I’ll get as much quality training in whilst I’m over there and plan to get stuck into the Short Track XC Speciality plan when I return. First race of the XC season is around the end of March.

Looking at the high volume speciality plan I was a bit shocked to see such a reduction in weekly TSS? I’ve been doing around 600 TSS a week and will be at around 675 by the time I finish the short power build. The toughest week in the speciality plan is about 540. Will this not make my fitness taper off quite dramatically? Should I be suplementing the plan with additional workouts?

Just wondered if there’s some logic behind that? Pretty sure I’d have to do more TSS just to maintain fitness?

Not all fitness is created equally or measured the same. TSS is basically a measure of volume and approximates to stamina (crudely). Short power build is going to be all about increasing performance for punchy climbs etc.

What's your primary objective?

Mr Blobby explains it better than I'm managing....

Primary objective is to do as well as possible at the Nationals. I raced sport category last year but will be racing Expert this year. I just don’t want to come last!

The short power build is a slight increase in TSS compared to what I’ve been doing so far. Saying that, overall hours have reduced but the IF has increased a bit. I was expecting a similar transition into the speciality phase (Lower volume and higher TSS & Intensity) instead it appears to drop the hours and TSS with another small increase in IF.

I track both completed and planned workouts in Training Peaks and and it appears that my overall fitness will drop throughout the speciality phase. I guess an expected increase in power could mitigate that?

gray - Member

Erm, about 133%. Word is that they're doing the calculation based on best 1 minute and best 5 minute power in the test, but I don't really get how that can be much different from being simply based on how high you get. Assuming the test is properly executed, anyway.

The power steps up linearly, but I reckon the pain curve is more exponential! You're quite comfortable for the bulk but the last couple of steps quickly put you at your limit. Seemed quite different to 8 or 20 min tests where there's a lot of adaptation as you get better at pacing the flat intervals. The ramp seemed more cut and dried - perhaps you can train it but it felt more like an open and shut case.

Warm/up was short, as well- don't know if this is integral to the test but if you're a slow starter you're legs won't appreciate this one.

@r8jimbob88

There is actually a very specific reason that the TSS is reduced during the Specialty Phase.

The aim of the Specialty phase is to tailor a rider’s fitness to be as specific as possible to the demands they’ll face during their key event(s). Workouts in this final phase of training are often the most intense workouts a rider will face over the entire course of the Base/Build/Specialty training cycle.

In contrast to the Specialty phase, the Build phase is responsible for raising the weekly stress to its highest point. If you were to continue this increase (or even maintain the final Build week’s TSS) into the Specialty phase, the combination of higher-intensity workouts, intermittent races and/or practice events, and the residual fatigue some riders might carry after a single Build-phase recovery week could cause a downward performance spiral.

In summary, you should not be supplementing this work with more work, but rather think of the reduction of TSS as a way for your body to get ahead of the fatigue and leave you primed and ready to race 🙂

@ Garry_Lager

Our aim with the Ramp test is exactly as you've mentioned. We are looking to create a test that a total beginner can complete and get their FTP without the complexity of pacing, completing a long warmup, etc.

It is complete in around 20 min and you really only have to suffer for those last two or three minutes 🙂

Thanks so much for taking the time to try it out, it really helps us fine tune the formula. Your FTP will be commented on your ride shortly!

Cheers,

Thanks Bryce Lewis, sounds good to me!

I’ll also give this ramp FTP a test next time it comes around.

Hi all, I used trainer road last winter but now cross country ski instead as my winter traiing, coupled with weights.

anyhows,I'm off to Finale at the start of May, when my cycle season starts I guess as the snow will have melted hopefully on my return.

which one of the trainer road programmes would yu guys recommend, to start perhaps around march /april to get ready for it.

as stated, i XC ski now (base or build stage I guess) and I do commute to work by bike as well. ta!

It's really cool that Bryce comes on here to chat.

I'm currently trying out Zwift while I pause my training for a while but I'll 100% be back on TR soon. One of the reasons is the customer support I've had, but now it sounds like I can get my FTP without 20 mins of teethgrinding I'm even more sold.

@r8jimbob - don't you want to be doing the xco plan not short track? Think short track is something they do in the states with very short races while our national series is xco style. No idea if there is much difference in the plans though

I've recently started sweet spot base, but thinking ahead, if I want to start my speciality phase in August (for cx) then I'm starting too early, should start base in March and build in June. I can't decide whether I should do an extra base when I finish this one, do extra build or think it gives me some extra weeks to use as recovery/ tapering in amongst the plan as I'll be doing some xc races as well. I guess for maximal improvement I shouldn't have extra rest weeks so one of the first two is a better option. Thoughts?

The ramp test looks interesting and definitely be preferable to the 20 minute test!

It would work best with an erg/smart turbo but would it still work with a dumb turbo and a power meter?

ferrals - Member

@r8jimbob - don't you want to be doing the xco plan not short track? Think short track is something they do in the states with very short races while our national series is xco style. No idea if there is much difference in the plans though

I've recently started sweet spot base, but thinking ahead, if I want to start my speciality phase in August (for cx) then I'm starting too early, should start base in March and build in June. I can't decide whether I should do an extra base when I finish this one, do extra build or think it gives me some extra weeks to use as recovery/ tapering in amongst the plan as I'll be doing some xc races as well. I guess for maximal improvement I shouldn't have extra rest weeks so one of the first two is a better option. Thoughts?

Will you be doing your CX training outside? I'd love to go into next season strong, but hitting the turbo in the summer seems really difficult.

everyone - Member

The ramp test looks interesting and definitely be preferable to the 20 minute test!

It would work best with an erg/smart turbo but would it still work with a dumb turbo and a power meter?

Crikey I've been looking at the wrong Speciality plan! Yes it's the XCO one that will be best for me. Oh how I can't wait to get stuck into some workouts at 0.93 on the IF scale.... vomit.

@Ferrals, if time was on my side i'd chuck in some additional Base to begin with.

I have Galena for the second time this week tonight, deep joy ahead.

easy week for me next week so might drop the ramp test in there somewhere. I'll also do the 20 min ftp at the start of my next block (SSBHV2) as I want to be sure I'm working off a correct assessment.

Is there not something to be said for sitting on your aris for a bit, (metaphorically speaking)? Can't be pushing the structured training year round.

Because of illness I've not done much since the end of November and it snot been structured. Hence having the appetite to get started now! Only 10hrs riding the whole of December!

Will you be doing your CX training outside? I'd love to go into next season strong, but hitting the turbo in the summer seems really difficult.

I tend to mix and match but roughly follow what the TR plan is suggested outside as well using percived effort. I do a lot of my training on the commute so stop somehwere for an hour of cx drills / intervals on the way too or from work. However I am a fair weather commuter so if its raining is turbo time.

r8jimbob88 - Member

@Ferrals, if time was on my side i'd chuck in some additional Base to begin with.

Think your right, especially as last season I think i came in over primed as my results went 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 19th and then stablised around there 😳

I had the same issue last year. I didn't have a huge amount of base fitness before building for the XC season. I only really got my head down in January and by mid June I was begining to suffer. I had a flying start to the season though.

I've got 3 months solid base under my belt now so hopefully I'll be able to see the full season through! I'll probably take a mini break and skip the National Champs in July.

Yeah, think I’d just be riding whatever bike I fancied, when I fancied, for fun and spend some time doing some structured strength work instead.

which one of the trainer road programmes would you guys recommend, to start perhaps around march /april to get ready for it.

Sweamrs is a nordic skier and it's pretty cardio intensive so I reckon that combined with commuting is plenty for a base. I'd be looking for something to sharpen power for short punchy climbs and the like so either short power build or XCO / XCM (depending on how much stamina you think you have from other cardio)

spend some time doing some structured strength work instead

Gym? I hate the gym. Or can I do strength work on the bike .. thinking low cadence drills and such

Our aim with the Ramp test is exactly as you've mentioned. We are looking to create a test that a total beginner can complete and get their FTP without the complexity of pacing, completing a long warmup, etc.

With FTP being 60MP, we estimate it as a percentage of 20MP, or as average of 2x8MP, and now from a relatively short range of ramping 1 min efforts. I'd be interested to know how consistent a value of FTP can be derived across all the various test protocols. And I guess with TR sessions being scaled by a single value of FTP it's something that needs to be "right".

Really all the tests are informing you of different things, all of it potentially useful data, and then you're estimating a single value based on that result with some margin of error and ignoring the rest 🙂

Edit... I'd prefer a ramp test too as it takes pacing out of the equation and relatively short!

Gym? I hate the gym. Or can I do strength work on the bike .. thinking low cadence drills and such

Find a better gym? I was actually thinking more trunk/upper body work - shoulders, back, core etc as well as leg work. Makes a difference and it's a good time to focus on it if you haven't got to worry about your legs being destroyed before racing.

mrblobby - Member

Our aim with the Ramp test is exactly as you've mentioned. We are looking to create a test that a total beginner can complete and get their FTP without the complexity of pacing, completing a long warmup, etc.

With FTP being 60MP, we estimate it as a percentage of 20MP, or as average of 2x8MP, and now from a relatively short range of ramping 1 min efforts. I'd be interested to know how consistent a value of FTP can be derived across all the various test protocols. And I guess with TR sessions being scaled by a single value of FTP it's something that needs to be "right".

Really all the tests are informing you of different things, all of it potentially useful data, and then you're estimating a single value based on that result with some margin of error and ignoring the rest

Edit... I'd prefer a ramp test too as it takes pacing out of the equation and relatively short!

How do I find the ramp test? I hate the 20 min ftp so much I just guess it and tweak it during the season. The ramp test sounds much better. I've searched on my iPhone app and it just lists ramp test X. The description says it doesn't generate an ftp value automatically

(I'm using a beta version of the app if that makes a difference).

That’s it

@Garry_Lager
I am really interested to hear how your next few workouts go with the new FTP. I am currently working through the Mid-Volume SSB I myself and was training at 300 FTP for the first three weeks when Nate prototyped the new formula which pushed me up to 330. Originally, I thought the formula was off, but after a few weeks at the new FTP I've learned that I had more fight in me than I thought 🙂

@srshaw
Yep, the test you're looking for is Ramp Test X. Once you complete the test, Juliana from Support will calculate and comment your newly earned FTP.

@howsyourdad1
When it comes to Nordic skiing's relationship with cycling, there is certainly some great overlap but I would not recommend fully skipping the Base phase. At the very least, you should complete Sweet Spot Base II before jumping into the Build Phase. As for what you should do with the rest of your season, that is largely goal and event dependent. To help with choosing your plans, I have written these articles in our TrainerRoad Help Center that help outline the different approaches for different events.

Choosing a Road Plan: https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005927343-Road-Cycling-Training

Choosing a Mountain Bike Plan: https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005927363-Mountain-Bike-Training

I just had a quick crack at the ramp test as I ran out or time to do the scheduled sweet spot work out. Started out hungry, thirsty and stressed so know I could do a better job but definitely liked it as a concept. If it is accurate can see it giving much more easily repeatable tests.

Gray, 2 x 20

Nailed both at 100%, feeling strange!

Hello? What?

Oh I see. OK. Well done!

😆

Not really sure why I've not done with those in the past, seeing as they're apparently the standard for raising FTP.

Anyway, last few minutes of the second interval were getting desperate.

Hi all I’m reasonably new to trainerroad and just finished 6 weeks of mid level sweet spot, and have seen some fantastic results so far. I did my second ftp test last night and noticed that gradient is used in the test, where as only resistance is used in training, it was probably the case with the 1st test 6 weeks ago but I didn’t know the difference as had spent very little time on a smart trainer. I can happily spin up to 320 Watts in training and sit there for some time maintaining inertia, but found this much harder in the test as the gradient destroys inertia.

Is this right and is there anyway of increasing gradient in training to be more prepared next time. Thanks again

Looking for a 2 x 20 sweet spot workout with bursts, say 30 seconds long every 4 or 5 minutes.

Similar to Eichorn, anyone know of anything?

On the FTP test you've got to work out the power for yourself and get the cadence right. If I drop cadence too much in a sweet spot interval for example I find it very hard to get it back up in the same interval. During the FTP session if you don't get to your comfortable cadence and expected power you might struggle to get up to the cadence you want.

I moved the target line also to what I expect to achieve plus a bit more as an optimistic target to aim at then settle into what feels likely over the 2 8 minute segments. I expect each time this target will get a bit more realistic as I know what I can achieve during sessions.

I did the 20min test last night, the five minutes clearing session is a good way to explore what power and cadence might be appropriate for the twenty minutes effort. It certainly helped me to hold a steady power throughout the test.

I had a play on the new FTP Ramp Test they've done. Get's ugly fast but doesn't last long either :0) Awaiting my result which comes via Email I think as it's BETA but looks like it'll be 80% of best minute. Have a 8 minute test due in wee and a half as shift plans so this should double check against this result. Not going to use the new one to set the FTP as it's basically a rest week next week which is much needed.

Reading about the new FTP test got me looking at the other test protocols available on TR. If I do the HA & AC POWER PROFILE TEST, does it actually give you a 'result' for each of the 5 sec / 1 min / 5 min at the end, or do you have to review the power profile data from the test yourself and draw up your own numbers?

<pedant>I think it’s 77% of the best minute.</pedant>

Most reckon somewhere between 75 and 80 percent.

You'll see a big variation when testing people's capabilities above FTP.

I have been doing sweet spot base mid volume 1 which I completed 2 weeks ago. I had my FTP at 263 which was set on my Kinetic trainer.
I moved to a Tacx Flux but felt my FTP was fine on the new trainer and carried on regardless.

I did the ramp test, and was thinking I would get an increase in FTP, but just got a 265 :(. https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/10930862-ramp-test-x

I then did the 8 minute test the next day, which gave me an answer of 241, which now confuses me even more.

I have noticed that my Flux seems quite sensitive to power levels, and it can be very smooth at a certain power output, but if that changes it will start to hunt for the right power showing quite clearly in the power graph as spikes and troughs. Over the period of the interval it will match the average power expected, but has anyone else seen this with the Tacx Flux, or is mine faulty?

In the results on the website it gives you power numbers for lots of different times for that session and your bests.

I found the Facebook Beta group and did more reading and yes that looks to be about 77% so a 5% increase for me which is what I'm expecting. Although with a better mindset I should improve on that in a weeks time when it's actually due. They suggest upgrading your FTP now if you take it so looks like it'll be a tough weekend once they confirm it.

@Haze

So we do not have anything that perfectly replicates an Eichorn with the 5-second bursts.  That being said, with our Workout Creator you can easily take the Eichorn workout and add the desired bursts in every 5 minutes or so.   You can then save the workout into your custom workouts so that you have access to it on all of your TrainerRoad devices 🙂

If you are interested in trying out the Workout Creator, you can download it here on Mac or PC:

http://trainerroadcdn1.blob.core.windows.net/software/workoutcreator.air

You will need to have Adobe Air installed first, so keep that in mind as well 🙂

workout creator is one of the unsung features of TrainerRoad 🙂

Once you get the hang of it's its really easy to create your own specific workouts.