MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Why do a large minority of riders go to so much effort to avoid paying a few quid to use Forestry trail centres.
When ever I go to Hamsterley Forest you can guarantee that there are planty of cars parked in the parking area on the lane outside the park to avoid paying the minimal parking charge.
There are even cars parked on the side of the drive into Hamsterley 30 yards before the toll booth. These people seem to be almost exclusively bike users.
Most people do pay but why do these people think they shouldn't have to contribute towards the upkeep and maintenance of the trails?
The crazy thing is that they are usually driving decent cars or riding £££ bikes. I find it astonishing - they should all be ashamed of themselves.
They are using the extra distance as training, hence why they are faster than you.
But yeah, it is a bit tight.
Perhaps they believe money is the most important thing on the planet and the more they have of it in their pockets the better off they will be ?
I'm always surprised at the lengths some people go to save a few quid.
yep, and its not just Hamsterly, its happens at every one. Having said that i went to Whinnlatter the other week and it was £6! thats more than a bit steep, not as bad as Dalby maybe but still steep. 😯
To be honest some fc parking charges extract the michael imho.
Bit iir Hamsterley was £3 whch is more than reasonable.
Was just about to comment on the same thing neil. Dont mind a couple of quid, but 6 quid at whinlatter is a bit steep i think. The cafe there is very nice, but again, it expensive!!
i went to CyB years back with a group of guys
its a five hour drive and a weekend away, but on arrival at the carpark more than one person was making their case for avoiding paying to park
****tards
Worse, people that wont pay to ride at swinley despite the free parking?
Aston hill is (£6/7)per person, not per car-full.
Is it fair to assume it is the same people who litter, ignore trail diversions and moan on internet fora?
I've seen this just about everywhere I've ridden from Wales to Scotland, France and Belgium
it's specially galling to see (as I did at Drumlanrig) flash cars parked outside. Some poor stoodent in a 20 year old R5 I can maybe understand but frankly cockhead, if you can afford a beemer, pay the bastid entry fee.
Remember, the car park fees contribute towards the upkeep of the tails!
And six quid parking is a bargain when you consider the entertainment you get on your visit! You pay that much if you spend a couple of hours at the cinema! Stop whining and cough up the dough!
I was passed a parking ticket at a trail centre last week, the bloke said, "Here you go, save the money!" So I took his ticket, tore it up and paid anyway!
If the FC don't get enough money to cover their costs, they'll not bother with any more trails...
Was just about to comment on the same thing neil. Dont mind a couple of quid, but 6 quid at whinlatter is a bit steep i think.
That's more than I remember it being but you can buy a yearly pass which covers both Grizedale and Whinlatter which is only about £20 I think.
it's specially galling to see (as I did at Drumlanrig) flash cars parked outside.
Being tight and selfish is probably how you get to be able to afford a flash car 😉
I've been guilty of this at 'Dalby'. It's £7. or was, it may have gone up now.
We were staying at the campsite at the top of the hill (where the toll booth is), so weren't actually taking up space on a road.
Do pay at Penmachno though, where there is a voluntary gift box on the gate for the trail pixies.
I was shocked by the parking fee at a trail centre I was at on Sunday. I was actually surprised so many people paid it.
I don't get it either - riders will spend thousands on bikes, upgrades, clothing and kit, they'll spend hundreds on fuel, event entry fees etc but turn up to a trail centre and they'll start a whine on an internet forum at the £3 parking charge or the fact that the coffee in the on-site cafe was £2.50...
Nah, I'll whine. £8 to park at Bedgebury is diabolical, considering the facilities/trails. Once bitten, twice shy.
On the other hand, I put every coin I could find in the van in the box at Penmachno.
I was going to compose a considered response agreeing with the OP, but then I saw this:
frankly cockhead, if you can afford a beemer, pay the bastid entry fee.
which sums it up quite nicely.
And if you don't want to pay the costs associated with trail centres, there's a one-off cost of about a tenner for an OS map of a particular area, and your imagination/ingenuity in piecing together a ride is free.
FC passes only cover the venue you purchase at. I think they're missing a trick here, i would buy an annula pass no worries if it covered all my centres (NW and Wales). But £6/7 a day is a lot, especially when there may bge two or three cars there in total. I still pay, i just complain because i'm British 😆
Seen it at Glentress. I had finished my early morning ride and I was putting the bike up on the car when a guy arrived and asked me for change for the parking machine. I didn't have any but he asked if anyone even bothered paying as if not he wouldn't either. I told them they all did and he grumbled. If he hadn't tried to avoid paying I would have given him my ticket for the rest of the day but instead he can cough up. 8)
Remember, the car park fees contribute towards the upkeep of the tails!
Not at Dalby...
The fee is purley for he upkeep of the Forrest Drive. It has nothing to do with trails...
I don't complain about the prices at trail centre cafes. After a ride I would pay nearly anything for a cup of tea.
I tend to agree that you should always pay when it's a small amount like the £3 at Hamsterley - I would maybe complain at paying twice that if I lived somewhere else (I'm just down the road from Hamsterley). Overheard an interesting conversation a few weeks ago at Hamsterley - one bloke asking his mate when they had to start paying the parking charge, they were under the impression that it was just Spring to Autumn. They've just put a new sign up which may have confused them.
If you don't park at the Forest Drive car park, Dalby is actually quite cheap, and the other car park is still slap bang on the Red trail. Also IIRC you can get free parking for Dalby and a couple of other sites if you join Singletraction and do a bit of digging with them.
Yep, I agree but it's not just cyclists.
At Rutland Water I think it's about £3 to park. You get walkers, families with picnics, birdwatchers parking on the verges all around the place to escape the fee.
I don't understand why these people think it's fine for other's to pay, but not themselves if they want to enjoy the facilities on offer.
It's a problem here at Drum where the entrance fee is £5 per rider. Yep I know it's steep , but that's what funds the trails completely....No EEC grant money or anything from the councilor tax funded FC! The trail has to be totally self sustaining or it gets pulled up, full stop. Also, the estate factor lives just up the hill from where the cheapskates park too so it all get noted. It makes it VERY hard for me when trying to justify new trail.
£5 each !!!! Yep it's a lot but as said above it's cheaper than a ticket to see 3d Hamsters at Vue and if you're gonna use the trails a lot, join the Drumlanrig/Riks Bike Shed club for £20 adult £10 kids £40 family and get involved in making the trail a sustainable community thing. There's a gert big house, gardens, walks, showers and free bike wash, parks, disc golf, adventure playground etc all included too; oh and very very good very reasonable cake in the cafe.
FC passes only cover the venue you purchase at.
Grizedale and Whinlatter are on the same pass.
When we go there are usually 3 of us in one car - £1 each!! It would be cheap at twice the price.
If we take the kids to Hamsterley for a picnic, to use the playground or go for a walk £3 is still cheap for a day out and that's without riding a single trail. It would cost 3 times that to take them to a soft play place or the cinema.
If people expect free riding they should use free trails i.e. bridleways etc.
I suppose if you go regularly the fees become pretty hefty. If I lived not too far down the road from a trail centre, I'd be pretty cheesed off to pay the £3.50 charge 5 nights a week and had no option for a regular users pass. I'll generally happily pay per-car charges, but per-person charge places just don't even get my custom.
Is the issue that they are actually just avoiding for paying for parking and do not understand that the parking revenue is a crutch for other costs?
thing is even if the FC were to offer an annual car pass, people would complain.
Hmmm I agree, but here in Exeter they close the car park early so at night you have no choice, which I find mucho annoying.
A one year pass for Hamsterley is £38. Seems reasonable
grum - MemberFC passes only cover the venue you purchase at.
Grizedale and Whinlatter are on the same pass.
That pass has gone up from £20 to £40 I think for the two centres and £30 for just whinlatter
I'm happy to pay for the upkeep of trails.
But, I've arrived and found the car park full and had to go elsewhere to park, but come back from my ride and there were spaces. Someone arriving at the later time would think I was avoiding paying, but I'd had no choice.
toys19 - MemberHmmm I agree, but here in Exeter they close the car park early so at night you have no choice, which I find mucho annoying.
That boils my p1ss too. Bloody stupid isn't it, but it makes the doggers park further along the hill.
ck, if 'one' lives close enough to ride five nights a week, perhaps 'one' could ride there and avoid paying to park?
You are all viewing this as trail centre ghetto riders.
Sometimes I park at Afan or Glyncorrwg and pay. Season tickets are available, but I haven't had one for several years because I didn't use it enough. I frequently park at other parts in the Afan valley and don't pay...
... not because I'm a cheapskate - more to do with the route I plan to take. If you're relatively local you'll probably ride a wider selection of routes than visitors - the forest then becomes a larger and more diverse set of recreational activities 😀
I've been told the FC is not empowered to charge for this.
There is also the argument that it is funded by us as taxpayers.
*starts beamer*
Remember, the car park fees contribute towards the upkeep of the t[r]ails!
Not necessarily. Certainly not at Dalby (as someone mentioned). I doubt it's the case in the majority of FE sites. They tend to avoid ring fencing income to specific activities. Much easier if it goes in one big, amorphous pot for them to decide what to do with.
Whilst some form of contribution at some places is probably fine and if it goes towards upkeep and maintenance then great. HOwever, FE/C is a Gvt quango already paid for in large part by tax payer dollars and revenue, mostly from timber (that revenue is ours already as we're paying for the organisation).
They have a mandate placed on them by Govt to achieve certain goals through manangement of the Crown Estate and any other sites they look after.
I find the (blind?) assumption that we should all pay a bit strange really. It's an outdoor activity on (usually) public land, how come it's so automatic that we should suddenly pay? I always liked the fact that most stuff in the hills is/was free (ish). Does this assumption extend to people when they're out walking? How come it doesn't extend to tolls on bridleways etc as they're also riding a taxpayer maintained bit of infrastructure?
I just find (what appears from reading some of the posts above) the assumption of pay it, you can afford it (it's nothing to you rich boy - how very "class war" 😉 ) and it goes into the trails all a bit blinkered. Some folks seem to accept that we should pay for anything and everything and I don't.
Hey ho.
😎
Coffee/Tea - take a thermos if you don't like what is on offer
Parking Charges - Pay them or find somewhere else to ride, its pretty simple
Live locally - get involved, then make the most of what you are helping with
I have never used a trail center but sod off would I pay £8. If your local tesco/waitrose started charging to park bet you would try to avoid it despite them looking after the boarders planting skanky mini conifers.
skanky mini conifers
LOL
Yeah, the only difference with FC is that the trees are bigger 😉
rkk01
Visiting a trail centre as part of a longer ride from further out is totally different to my mind.
It's people parking just outside the toll booth or the entrance and riding in purely to avoid paying that I'm on about.
bassspine
If the car parks are full that's pretty unavoidable but at places like Hamsterley there are acres of space for parking all the way through the valley - I could never foresee an occasion when they would be full.
I begrudged paying my parking fee at Sherwood pines when I rocked up at around 8ish and the bloody toilets weren't open!!!! I had to turn back and head to the Maccy Ds for a Mc Dump 😆
cheeky monkey
There's a big difference between riding a public bridleway and riding purpose built mtb trails at an FC centre.
Trail centres might be on 'public' land but generally they are not routes A-B. They are leisure facilities built purely for the enjoyment of mountain bikers so a contribution seems fair enough really.
I'm happy to pay car-parking fees, but if there's somewhere free to park that isn't going to inconvenience me, others or break any laws, why shouldn't I park there? We all have our own ways of saving the pennies. How on earth did I afford the nice bike in the first place? Not by giving my money up every time someone asked for it, that's for sure. Do we all park in pay and displays when shopping even though there are perfectly good free spaces to park in? I doubt it...
...we go to Tesco instead 😆
who says you cant put a price on morals eh?
Drum; £5 each !!!!
OMGWTF!!!!!1eleven
yeah, I think drumlanrig is the priciest place I've ridden (that didn't have lifts anyway) but don't resent a penny of it. the trails there are quite different from the surrounding stanes etc and the cycling museum is mental ... in a very good way
That pass has gone up from £20 to £40 I think for the two centres and £30 for just whinlatter
Oh, I thought it seemed like too good a deal. Still probably worth it if you visit both reasonably often though.
There's a big difference between riding a public bridleway and riding purpose built mtb trails at an FC centre.Trail centres might be on 'public' land but generally they are not routes A-B. They are leisure facilities built purely for the enjoyment of mountain bikers so a contribution seems fair enough really.
I figured you might feel that way, hence the examples. Why and exactly what is the "big difference"?
Public land is public land. Managed by whatever authority through taxpayer funds eg. Council tax to local authority, budget for up keep of BW's etc. Tax dollars to central Govt which some goes to FE whilst rest of operational costs etc comes out of revenue (see point before about it being ours and that there's no major CAPEX as it's public property). The landowner / manager isn't a significant difference between the scenarios to make them incomparable, in my mind.
Not sure why the route is a distinction either. Public ROW are maintained for all sorts of reasons and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of ROW exist nowadays for enjoyment (whether in a circle or straight line). There's little droving and yomping to get from the country to market in town etc 😉 What I mean is, they're no longer essential transport infrastructure that the LA should maintain, most of it really is for health, leisure and enjoyment (much like MTB trails).
A point of detail - trails are rarely (on FE land) ever "purely for MTBers" either. Standard FE policy for trails is to encourage their use by only MTB but they won't (possibly can't) deny access to walkers etc. They're built because there's a mandate on FC from Govt to do so.
If they're a Govt / publicly owned and funded body how come we have to pay again for something we're already paying for? We're already contributing through our taxes etc.
Again, I find the acceptance that you have to pay to enjoy yourself a bit wrong. I also find the assumption that paying a car parking toll in some way (at FE centres) directly contributes to trail maintenance and upkeep, or even off setting the CAPEX wrong as well.
IIRC the vast majority of funding for the 7 Stanes came from Opportunity 1 funding. That all comes from Europe. Where do they get their cash from? Taxes! So you see, car parking income isn't off setting CAPEX for initial development (usually the major expenditure).
Hey ho, not looking to have fight, just interested in why people think, automatically it seems, that you always have to pay.
Oh, and the class war bollox is just that, bollox 😉
Presumably £5 atr Drumlanrig isn't just for parking but for entrance to the grounds etc. Can't you ride there for free in the winter when everything else is closed.
Well no-one, I mean no body at all maintains footpaths and bridleways around here [OK there are some finger posts and the odd stile, but no surfacing work].
A few quid to ride slick, purpose built trails is OK by me.
to ride slick, purpose built trails
LOL, I prefer a few lumps and bumps myself otherwise you might as well be on a road bike 😉
Cheeky Monkey - I think people are mostly saying they're happy to pay, not that they think they should have to.
I'm sure most people are equally happy when there's no car parking charge.
Funny how the trails that cost the most to park at (Bedgebury, Dalby) aren't generally rated the best to ride.
It's frustrating to hear that a great trail like Penmachno might be threatened by people not putting anything in the honesty box, whereas if an expensive machine had been installed there'd probably be a much higher income.
I have no problem paying reasonable parking charges like a couple of pounds a day but I do have an issue with paying city centre parking rates, Cambridge city centre Queen Anne car park costs £1 an hour, Thetford High Lodge charges £1.80 an hour. Dalby at £7 is way over the top and let’s not forget the Forestry Commission gets about £100M of our taxes
I think people are mostly saying they're happy to pay, not that they think they should have to.
Sorry, I'm probably coming across as a pedant but the key difference is compunction (i.e. parking charges) or voluntary contribution. At FE sites you're not talking about voluntary charges, you're talking about being compuned (??) to pay a fee.
I agree that most people seem happy to contribute (rather than "pay" which implies having to give the money) on the assumption that it's going into the trail. As I've said, I don't think that usually occurs on FE sites.
In any case that acceptance is based on the fact that they think there is something to pay for in the first place. I don't think there is because it's already come out of taxes etc.
Hey, if anyone really wants to pay for the joy of having a trail then SingletrAction would be more than happy to receive your cash 😉 I've just had to buy £250 of aggregate to surface the Descent Line Extension (well, not me the club) And we've not got a parking meter (and it's on FE managed land.
My, what a mass of contradictions I am 😉
Thing is CM, if you don't pay to use the land the Govt/FC will need to raise cash somehow to pay for it.
http://subrosa-blonde.blogspot.com/2009/05/scottish-forestry-commission-to-sell.html
I do it at Hamsterley all the time.
Mainly because in the winter the car parks get locked beyond a certain time (6pm) and I often go to ride between 5-7pm. Check my windscreen next time, you'll find I often buy a ticket to park outside of the forest anyway...
I have never been to drumlanrig but i thnk £5 per person is too much - make it per car instead.
You could also ask the council to make the road nearby no parking to stop folk from parking on it to avoid the fees.
Drumlanrig is an a rather different position to most centres tho being a private enterprise
I don't think the parallels with supermarkets apply here. The FC/FE have some revenue streams - franchises, event fees, timber, etc - but they're not necessarily selling a product to their visitors in the same way, and they won't be able to draw on all sources of cash at a given site. I'd agree that a bit more financial transparency might not be a bad thing for them though.
Where can you buy the passes for Grizedale and Whinlatter, i cant see it on the FC website, or can you just buy on site ?
I got one from the VC at Whinlatter.
the comparison with supermarkets is BS, they provide free parking because people spend a shed load of money there every week. If FC or landowners charged an entry fee for use of the trails, the parking may well be free.
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem paying per person if the money went directly to improving and maintaining the trails. Why should we be any different from the bike resorts in canada and europe. We might not have lifts but we do have tons of purpose built trails which somebody has to pay for.
As already stated Dalby is £7 between March & October per car & not one penny of that goes towards the trails
I have a £42 season ticket which works out a bit cheaper for me but £7 ??
I used to park down in Thornton-le-dale for £2 & use the cafe & facilities there instead - much nicer & better value TBH
Fc passes here
http://purchase.tickets.com/buy/TicketPurchase?agency=FORESTRYMEMBERS&organ_val=33707&schedule=list
£7 per car at dalby, but that paid for 4 of us in a van last time. Less than £2 each for a fantastic days riding. I really think some people just like a moan. 😉
Just by way of comparisson:Go Ape at Aberfoyle; 2 kids (who of course have to be accompanied by an adult who pays more!) cost the princely sum of £65 last time I looked.
Come back Sir Fred, all is forgiven!
£5 per person for Drumlanrig is one of the biggest bargains I've ever heard of. You'd pay £10 to get into a nightclub for 4 hours, £7 for the cinema for 2, anywhere between a tenner and fifty quid to see a couple of hours of music... £5 to ride perfect trails for an afternoon is [i]amazing[/i] by comparison.
What boils my piss is the people who use the car parks and don't pay- at Glentress the money really does go into the trails, yet how many people on any sunday have paid? Fair play, some probably just don't realise they're supposed to, it's not all that well signposted but there's plenty who know fine well they should and just skive it. Total s***ehawks.
Just like to clarify that it's not just mountain bikers that get charged a fiver for Drum, that's the standard entry fee to the the castle grounds and country park. Everybody gets charged the same: the old biddies that dander round the gardens; the walkers that use the paths; the picnikers - everybody. And unfortunately it's the bikers who give all the grief at the kiosk, and I mean serious verbal sometimes (there's always a minority that spoil it). But guess what, those are the things that get trawled out at the weekly estate meetings, it's actually really embarrassing to hear and as I've mentioned it doesn't help justify new trail. Cheers for all the positive comments about the trails that definetely does help 😀 cheers
Seen those cars at Hampers too and thought about it myself but just don't have the cheek to try for the sake of £3. You pay nearly that for a trip anywhere more for a lot of touristy places. True about the gates though and they don't open till about 8am either.
And how come a Dalby pass is £42 (@7) while H is £38 (@3)?
Just think, if England had the same access rights as Scotland, there wouldn't be this problem.
The trail parks would be used by those riders who wanted a manufactured experience, and the rest of the country could be used by those who wanted to go places.
Maybe the stingy riders should stop acting like misers, and instead petition their MPs for Access Rights.
Call me a tightwad, but I don't see the need to justify myself if I find a free and legal parking spot to access a trail centre. If they started charging me to pay to access the trails, then I'd pay. But paying for parking is just that - you pay for parking. If I choose not to use their parking facilities then I'm not going to pay.
Call me a tightwad
Tightwad.
Ah but fanatic, levelling a parking charge is (as discussed above) for most places the most practical way they can levy a charge for trail upkeep.
I've not ridden drumlanrig, but that so many speak highly of it means when I get round to it, I won't begrudge the £5.
Pisses me off folk trying to save a few quid on expensive bikes etc. Also e.g. folk at the races moaning about the cost of entering going up a fiver or whatever when they have boxxer world cups. Buy some teams, use the savings to pay for a race season! Not likely to make you any slower! And if it does, you're probably sponsored anyhow.
I ride a nice bike cos I can afford to, if I couldn't I'd rather have a total shed of a bike, but be able to afford to ride it exciting places.
I didnt know you could get a pass to the whinlatter & grizedale trails.
I would get one but i think the police may be getting annoyed at all the parking permits i have on my screen.
NT - check
7 Stanes - Check
I am running out of room
I guess I'm not telling the whole story. At Glentress there's a few marked parking spaces that aren't subject to the fee. If I'm early enough I'll take one. I wouldn't go and abandon my car in some random grass verge just avoid the charge. As soon as the free spaces fill up, then I'll pay.
But saying that, if someone tries to charge >£6 to park then I might have second thoughts about that grass verge if others are doing it too.
IIRC, the FC is not allowed to charge for access to trails or the like, so charging for parking is one of the ways they are able to monetise trail centres. The money that goes towards trails may not always come directly from parking fees but I expect that the FC won't invest in trails if they don't think they'll get something back from them - money from parking or in some cases brownie points for encouraging tourism or public fitness.
but I expect that the FC won't invest in trails if they don't think they'll get something back from them
There's a couple of places up here where the FC have done some building and the car parks are free. It's not on the scale of Glentress, but still quite some effort involved in the build. I imagine there's some government requirement to open up their land for leisure use.
Just think, if England had the same access rights as Scotland, there wouldn't be this problem.
I'm sure TJ will be along to confirm, but I believe you can be charged for access to purpose-built trails in Scotland, regardless of access laws.
I never pay to park when I ride at Hamsterley, because I ride there. Want to save the £3? Simple - leave the car at home.
i currently dont have to pay for parking as i live directly in town and have to pay for lifts instead.. 19 euro for a day card to ride up and down the mountian..(austria)
however in my opinion, i think paying anything more than £2 is pretty much a rip off for parking...
i would personally park a little further away not because im tight either just because i find it a joke tbh.
its public paths, ok they are prepared for the summer, but how much upkeep is needed to make during the year 1 time 2 times 3 times in a year and what are you paying for?? the people to do it or materials? i personally dont no anyting about it so cant comment on the upkeep but i see it that if it doesnt happen then you will still be able to ride them? just a little more rough and reddy??
i used to live about 15 mile away from aston hill and refused to pay the obscene charges!!
you cant compare the prices to cinema etc because they are more expensive!
£6.50 for an adult in cinema in MK and have to pay to park also so thats now £8 you grab a drink like you would do in the cafe of a trail then its £10 ish... thats why people get pissed with paying trail prices.. if they said you pay £2 to enter the trails or walks etc. not the car park everyone would have to pay? and dont think many people would grumble with that too much inc me.
year cards are a good idea but not alot of info are about. if they made abit more publicity, i think alot of people would take it up especially for £20 type thing, or £5 direct debit per month or a monthly payment with paypal type thing.
well shoot me now lol
I never pay to park when I ride at Hamsterley, because I ride there. Want to save the £3? Simple - leave the car at home
i think thats what people mean tho, also if you dont pay for the car they dont get anything at all...?? if i understand correctly?
the comparison with supermarkets is BS
Who's comparing with supermarkets? The point I was making is that I can't believe many of us would pay for a parking space if there was a free one available. I have NO PROBLEM contributing to the upkeep of trails through whatever charges are levied, but why on earth would I want to use a space where I needed to pay if I can park for nowt? If people can find a safe and legal space outside the trail centre that costs nothing and then cycle in the 100 metres, 1km, 10kms then why not? At what distance is it OK to "park and ride?"