[Closed] trail building etiquette - national trust

Procedure is to gain permission from the landowner.

If that can't be done and you want to build trails suss out somewhere where it will go largely, if not completely, un-noticed. Don't leave evidence of activity, hide the run in or don't have one at all etc.

Pretty sure any work that is done that isn't sanctioned by NT will be removed and people questioned.

Find out who the Warden/Ranger is and ask them.

I suspect you'll get a no though, my experience is they can be quite open to ideas*, but generally their land tends to be of some importance either historical, managed in some way, or an SSSI/SPA.

*they built a hugely popular family trail but a mountainbike trail was a definite no. At another property nearby there were sanctioned trails a bit like the sort of arrangement some locals have with FC owned land.

Yeah in short dont.

Depending on the stance of the land team and how brazen the trails are they might be tolerated.

What happens though is more people dig n put sketchy things in. Then the owners are then forced to act.

As above, keep it discrete, and don't just add features to existing paths. In the council run country park near me, one trail has kept its berms and (small) jumps for years as only bikers use it (there are other more established paths nearby) but the little gaps that appeared one day in a popular area were flattened within days.

Overall, try to build out of the way. If you don't get it right, you'll soon find branches on the trail and the features neutralised.

is there a rule of thumb for etiquette for trail building in a national trust forest?

Yup. Don't.

trail building etiquette

Same as any other etiquette really, it's not yours, don't use it without asking, don't be surprised when they say no.

Of course practice is very different and will depend where on the "you can't stop me" or "yes sir, certainly sir, three bags full sir" scale you sit.

There is no organisation wide blanket approach at present, though enough poking of that particular sleeping dog may result in one.

However, lots of NT land is currently closed or restricted and it has all been closed until recently, so specifically no-one should be there at all, digging, walking or picnicking. So you're* already into the "expressly against the landowners wishes" territory(as are about 5 million other people, but I can't see them being too robust in refusing entry to old ladies and families who spend lots in the cafe in due course)

As for upsetting walkers they're probably no more entitled to be milling around in a working area of forest than you* are. It's not theirs either. If you're* building on established paths it's unlikely to go well.

*appreciate its not actually you.

As above, keep it discrete, and don’t just add features to existing paths

This.

thanks for the replies. they're both good kids so any contact with wardens would be polite on their part.

i'll keep an eye out for a warden next time im up and see if he has any advice on locations. plenty of scope for trails that are away from the main waymarked walking routes.

cheers

Its my experience that the NT claim to be pro cycling, the definition of which, for them, is scenic, family bimbling trails. They're culturally firmly in the 'Uh? No!' camp when it comes to mtb.

Do yourself a favour and find out if your spot has any specific designations/protections like SSSI, SAC, SPA, etc... If it has, dont even bother making an approach.

In my world, its all about being discrete. The woods at the end of my road have always had some great trails in them and during lockdown, a fair few more have been built but they're all properly off the radar. You'd need to go looking for them or to the casual walker wandering past, it might look like a deer trail heading into the trees or a pile of rocks. Unfortunately kids have recently been into the most popular part of the wood (the easily accessed bit) and carved what can only be described as a motorway through bluebells, over paths etc, digging huge holes to make berms etc. Even as a rider and trail builder, its massively unsightly and quite rightly, locals have been kicking off on the village facebook page and the MP is aware of "anti social biking and digging". I stopped a lad the other week whilst out with the dog who was scoping out more stuff with a spade in hand, again just above the crap thats already been built. Told him locals were kicking off and if he wanted to build, do it elsewhere. Low and behold a motorway has appeared in one of the most unspoilt, quiet parts of the woods and its a bloody eyesore.

Teach kids to build trails that are as wide as their tyres instead of massive New World Disorder death track things.

Whereabouts in East Devon? East Hill way or somewhere?

ashclyst forest.

nothing too cheeky up there although the horse riding trail from the main car park can be a blast.
its 5 miles from my place and would be ideal if there was anything more than walking trails.

has easthill got much on it nowadays?

As a volunteer ranger for the NT I can only advise against trail building on their land. When the local rangers find it they will probably have to remove it and with so much work to catchup on in the coming months (due to covid 19) fewer staff and no sign of us Vols coming back anytime soon its just more stress/work for the local staff to deal with.

Any experience I have is that the answer with the NT is no, now what’s the question?

There may well be justification for their approach in certain situations, but I think they are very negative and wildly out of touch.

ashclyst forest.

Always thought Ashclyst forest had lots of potential, but it's a bit far from me in Ottery + it being NT land put me off.

has easthill got much on it nowadays?

Plenty on East hill if you know where to look. Core Copse has lots of short, steep, loamy stuff.

Builders have been active in Harpford woods during lockdown, but most of it's been knocked down again.
It was getting too big. I just wish they'd leave it at nice single-track and a few doubles, but every time it escalates to road gaps, etc. and it gets razed.

Same on Woodbury, Yettington has all been knocked down again, lots of 'don't cycle here' notices too. The big features pissed off Clinton Devon Estates.

You are going on to private land and think it might still be ok?

Give me your address OP, I fancy bringing a JCB round for a bit of fun

There may well be justification for their approach in certain situations, but I think they are very negative and wildly out of touch.

To be fair, as an organisation they probably own disproportionately SSSI/SPA land and beauty spots which are of no commercial value as a result. Precisely the sorts of places anyone with a couple of brain cells to knock together wouldnt build. Its the opposite of FC industrial forestry.

And out of touch with who? A minority of a relatively small sport? Like arguing they should have conceded to rave culture in the 90s and converted some stately homes into superclubs because people were going to illegally rave in the grounds.

Can't comment on NT land but I do agree with the keep it discreet crowd. I build lots and hardly ever find my work comes under attack but any jumps I build are generally with the help of a shape that already existed. All my local woods would have been quarries at some point so are chock full of shapes and features just waiting to be linked together. And I wouldn't be too upset anyway as I accept its not mine so thats the deal.

I'm just along the valley from Daveboywonder and lockdown has brought the kids out with shovels, sadly they have attracted attention to some lines that have existed for years without any issue, because they insist on digging big holes everywhere to build shonky gaps out of mud and twigs across footpaths everywhere.

Most places - discrete. NT Land - don't build. The whole purpose of NT is preservation, and they will any changes they haven't planned. All you'll do by building trails is reduce the possibility that bikes will ever be allowed on existing paths.

lockdown has brought the kids out with shovels, sadly they have attracted attention to some lines that have existed for years without any issue

^ This unfortunately ☹️

I was riding down a long established trail in some local woods last week, elsewhere in the woods some biggish features have been thrown up recently.

I encountered a couple of blokes in forestry gear walking up the trail, and they asked me if the building was anything to do with me.

I said no, but admitted to riding the trails in the woods for many years.

They were very nice, but said - yeah, we've got no issues with people riding trails like this, but can't condone big jumps and tree damage. Be aware that next time you come here all the trails will have been taken out of action as a precaution.

Arse 😡

As a landowner of special places they may have to say no but there will be good reasons for that.
They do own lots of not-very-special woodland though and might be more amenable. I speak from experience here. It might be something they’ve wanted to do but didn’t have the time/staff/skills. Talk to them and if there is a window of opportunity then a volunteer group might be the way forward.
Head Rangers and Visitor Experience staff are the people to look for.

Be aware that next time you come here all the trails will have been taken out of action as a precaution.

Assume you're in England? I had a little hitler NT ranger telling me I shouldn't be riding my bike along the coastal path in Culzean castle grounds, when I asked why, and under what law, he was utterly clueless.

I really canny be arsed with the NT, at our local places they have the attitude that they really don't want you there at all. And the whole Glencoe trademark was an affront.

That’s the scottish NT though...a very different wee beastie.

My local trails are on NT land. It has been a popular riding spot for a very long time. Fairly recently they put in an official trail and removed a lot of the unofficial stuff in that area. The cheeky steeper sections are still there and seem to be tolerated, it is all pretty discrete though, no woodwork and no big jumps, and not in a part that people walk on. The official stuff seems to keep riders away from the more sensitive areas. Seems a good compromise. It's very busy with dog walkers and families at the moment but there doesn't seem to be much conflict.

Teach kids to build trails that are as wide as their tyres instead of massive New World Disorder death track things.

The local (kids, I presume) have taken it on themselves to dig a wide jump line, complete with berms, hip jumps and tables, diagonally down the open hillside opposite my house, alongside a load of of steep bermy stuff cutting across it. Now it's been raining you can see it from a couple of miles away...so I don't expect it to last long.

Don't try riding a mountain bike across NT land. If you want to chase foxes*, fill your boots.
*Only accidentally, of course.

I agree with you about the fox stuff and so do lots of other people.
I can’t and don’t agree about the riding bikes bit though. Just not my experience at all.

And the whole Glencoe trademark was an affront.

This passed me by, but I've since Googled it - shocking stuff really.

Two approaches - 1) carry on as they are, knowing what they're doing isn't sanctioned and might get flattened, with advice on how to keep it more well hidden and more acceptable if it is found. 2) go and find someone to ask, who'll either tell them to keep it subtle and safe as above, or say no and have the trails flattened anyway.

As above, it where you and they are on the "3 bags full"/"swivel, grandad!" scale.

Assume you’re in England? I had a little hitler NT ranger telling me I shouldn’t be riding my bike...

Not NT land, privately owned, managed by Clinton Devon Estates.
They're not known for a) liking bikes on their land, and b) being particularly sympathetic with their forestry work.