20 is the legal limit - round red circle indicates that - so could be enforced. Not strictly enforced at the moment obviously leads people to think it's optional... but I'd consider it more a transition period. Habitual speeding to get to the next traffic queue sooner seems to be what a lot of people want to do, in urban areas at least speeding is an ego 'I know better' thing than any real time benefit.
I think a lot of people will be surprised to learn that the 20mph limits ARE NOT ENFORCEABLE in most areas. Contact your local authority. I know LCC did not provide the local legislation to enforce the 20mph limit (might have changed more recently?) on a cost basis.
It's the 'mindset of the few' idea in that if the signs convince a few people to drive at or nearer 20, average speed does reduce slightly.
The ONLY viable way to enforce 20mph (or any limit) is electronic limiting which the UK would never accept or vote for.
I bet many of those who lobbied for the lower speed limits are the same ones who abandon their 4x4 all over the place to drop little Tommy off at school. I’m all for appropriate and considered speed limits but often they seem to be reduced for absolutely no reason. Round here many have been changed from national speed limits down to 40. They are not accident black spots and nothing on the roads has changed in 30 years beyond the introduction of speed cameras. It’s hard to take the claims of road safety reason seriously when this is the back drop.
We were in the boarders recently observing the new 20 mph signs and getting overtaken by locals all the time. You could tell they were locals as many were joining and leaving the main road onto residential streets
It neatly solves the problem because you can’t just barrel through at 40mph half oblivious. Driving through the built up area requires a state of cat like readiness and really going any faster than 20mph is a bit of gamble.
Except so many won't do that - see the person in Dunblane overtaking outside a school just before 9am, se the chap arguing with me that speed is not an issue in any accident. They will barrel through, they will crank up the stereo, the heater, the phone pinging messages, they will not be aware and then a kid steps out while they are doing 40mph.....
The problem is that these long 20 mph zones, in which for the vast majority of the time 20 mph feels to slow to drivers and there is no obvious risk (not the same as there being no risk!), simply re-enforce the “it’s ok to break the speed limit” mantra in drivers heads.
Agreed, but the issue is so many drivers are unaware of the risks that they just carry on. The road in question has the school, doctors and supermarket within perhaps 600m. However, go 600m the other way and at the start and end of the day there is a line of pupils crossing the road to get to primary and high school, plus national cycle route, plus blind corner (when doing more than 30mph). Unless you stand and watch the game of road crossing in a morning with the oblivious drivers and 20 kids, you have no idea of the risks...
Hi-Viz jacket and a hairdryer has a good effect.
Never argue with an idiot. You'll never convince the idiot that you're correct, and bystanders won't be able to tell who's who
Frustration at not being able to murder morons leads to more accidents. We’ll be saving lives in the long run…
I think this idea has some merit
I think a lot of people will be surprised to learn that the 20mph limits ARE NOT ENFORCEABLE in most areas. Contact your local authority. I know LCC did not provide the local legislation to enforce the 20mph limit (might have changed more recently?) on a cost basis.
This is flat wrong - the The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (Amendment) Order 1999 (so, not *that* recent) defines 20mph limits; these are enforceable by law and councils no longer need to seek approval from the appropriate Secretary of State.
We were in the boarders recently observing the new 20 mph signs and getting overtaken by locals all the time. You could tell they were locals as many were joining and leaving the main road onto
Really? All the time?
We've been living here for nine months now and that's not happened to us once.
I've had a couple of tailgaters but a lot less than I used to get back in the Midlands.
It makes it so much nicer to ride a bike on the roads so I'm all for it.
Can't say it takes me any longer to get anywhere in real terms than if the 20s were 30s.
The unenforceable limits are the green ringed 'twenty's plenty' zones, anything with a red border is enforceable.
I agree with @maxtorque as well, the 20 zone in Stirling from town to Bridge of Allan (next to the railway) is tedious in the extreme. Its a long, wide clear road that has no real need for such a limit. For @nobeerinthefridge think East Road.
That said, I'd happily make Largs a blanket 20 and probably Dunblane for that matter. Both have tiny roads off of the main drag and in Largs' case thats self limiting through town as well.
Personally I feel 20 is fine for smaller residential roads or even the German system where peds have priority. Bigger arterial roads are fine at 30 as long as they have safe crossings. But it needs to be enforced or it's no good.
Got overtaken this morning in my village (sounds quaint, but it ain't :)) with much gesticulating from the overtaker too. Why? I must have delayed them by 5 seconds. Oh, and don't get me started on the mini roundabout in the village that the *******s ignore in all directions.
Borders resident here as well and contrary to what most are saying here, I’m starting to see the 20mph limits having an effect. When first put in place they were almost universally ignored but we are almost a year in now I think and the majority has definitely started to shift, from my observations there seem to be almost a majority now who are closer to 20 than 30 a lot of the time. As pointed out on this thread it’s a big change to the mindset for a lot of people as on some roads 20 feels like you are crawling along but time seems to be having the desired effect.
I’m another one who took delight these last months of seeing a queue of irate drivers build up behind me at 20.. doesn’t happen nearly so much now and even those who would clearly like to be going faster seem to be more resigned to it these days. Could be like other major changes to peoples normal routine, I’m just about old enough to remember how up in arms all the grownups were when seatbelts became mandatory, you’d struggle to find anyone nowadays who doesn’t pull a seatbelt on without even thinking about it.
I’m 50/50 on this issue. I’d like a 20mph speed limit in my village, but would prefer to have none from my village to where I work. I think that’s a fair balance.
@squirrelking interesting example mate, because it's a long straight road, and it's not particularly wide, it's awful for folk squeezing past, and the street furniture means overtake then cut back in quick type affairs.
If it was a 20, there would be far less of this IMO. And a couple of cameras too, sorted.
I must be misremembering it, don't remember any street furniture barring a couple of islands. Not so much interesting as just plain bad. TBF I've driven it a handful of times in the last 10 years, I remember when it was a 40 or 50 limit though.
In any case, my point was more that the width made it feel really slow and it was more of sticking plaster rather than a proper infrastructure solution where dedicated bike lanes would have made sense.
I do agree, I know we all have the tendency to rightly protect our rights to road use, but on some occasions, a dedicated cycleway would be so much better.
Though I get shouted at regularly for daring to bike along Troon front on the road, which I do because the shared use path is polluted wi clueless dug walkers.
Except so many won’t do that – see the person in Dunblane overtaking outside a school just before 9am, se the chap arguing with me that speed is not an issue in any accident
Maybe I've not explained the Luxembourg approach very well - the priorities are reversed between main roads and side roads so you can speed if you want but you will crash and it will be 100% your fault. It's not asking people to go 20 but making them give way along the town high street such that going more than 20 is a gamble. Even if the road is clear a car can and will pull directly on the road from any side street at any time. If you hit them you get done for Luxembourgish careless driving.
Also quite like the German shared space thing. Used to drive there quite a bit for work. There's just a sign and the start and end, no road markings and you need to give way to pedestrians. Non compliance is not tolerated and if you hit anyone you're 100% at fault.
I think Wales is considering dropping all 30 zones to a blanket 20mph limit.
I think it’s a brilliant idea and responded to the consultation to say so. I guess there will be a get out that allows higher speeds for areas where the 20mph presumption is deemed too slow and that may water the whole thing down. I hope they don’t chicken out and get it implemented soon.
I know it seems slow when driving - but it’s not about me the driver who is just momentarily passing through someone else’s street, it’s about everyone else who has to put up with the impact of me driving down their road. Incidentally, I find sticking to 20mph easier in an electric or automatic car.
the shared use path is polluted wi clueless dug walkers.
Same in Largs, at least Troon has a wall (maybe not on Ballast Bank but you can ride over the top) to stop you falling off the path.
Also quite like the German shared space thing. Used to drive there quite a bit for work. There’s just a sign and the start and end, no road markings and you need to give way to pedestrians. Non compliance is not tolerated and if you hit anyone you’re 100% at fault.
I was going to quote that but couldn't quite remember the details. Brilliant idea.
I was driving through Cambridge today (I had to pick some stuff up too heavy to carry on a bike) and saw someone *yet again* try to turn left into the Guided Busway.
Car drivers do this on a regular basis, despite the blizzard of NO ENTRY THIS MEANS YOU DUMBASS signs.
If you think car drivers are paying attention, you're just plain wrong. 20mph is quite fast enough.
I have a 20mph near me and at least once a week I get some twunt flashing me and then speeding past as soon as it opens up to 2 lanes.
I hooted once and the guy then pulled over and got out thinking I was worked up enough to ‘have a chat’. Hooting is about as aggressive as I can manage so I just cruised on by and thankfully he didn’t follow me…
Love the 20 mph through Peebles. The high street is way more chilled and drivers seem to have grasped that there’s no point dashing and stop for pedestrians even between crossings. I go up there a few times a year and it feels like they’ve changed the driver / pedestrian cyclist balance for the better each trip.
Where people are arguing that roads are wide and don’t seem dangerous enough to merit a low speed limit there’s another approach. I live on a wide 30mph road and am shocked at how fast people drive, the noise and the dangerous overtakes. Basically the road layout should change so that it’s visually easier to keep to the speed limit rather than giving up on the speed limit. Cycle lanes could easily make it all look more like a road you shouldn’t be barrelling along at 40mph and above. This is a win win. More people think it’s safe enough to cycle, plus fewer car drivers driving more slowly. Much nicer place.
So many people think that their journey is more important than anybody elses.
Also I'm convinced that a fair few drivers drive purely by feel and never (unless spying a speed camera/police car) look at their speedo.
Plenty drive 40 mph, everywhere.....
Another thing I think as well is, that plenty of people are driving with poor eyesight. When it's dark, I see plenty of people driving well below the speed limit on dark country roads (often with full beam on) then speed up when they come to a well lit town.
Plenty of s##t driving and drivers about.
I got a driver attempt to over take me on Peebles high street last week. I was cycling at the speed of the traffic in front whilst being approx. 1.5m from the curb. She drove -very closely- along side me for about 100m. I was shouting at her to pull back as the road was narrowing. She didn't even look my way.
People driving cars don't seem to understand that people on bicycles can travel at 20mph +
Another thing I think should be added to 20mph zones is a gradual decrease in speed limits. 60 to 40 then to 20. 60 straight to 20 makes 20 feel really slow, so people speed.
Where people are arguing that roads are wide and don’t seem dangerous enough to merit a low speed limit there’s another approach. I live on a wide 30mph road and am shocked at how fast people drive, the noise and the dangerous overtakes. Basically the road layout should change so that it’s visually easier to keep to the speed limit rather than giving up on the speed limit. Cycle lanes could easily make it all look more like a road you shouldn’t be barrelling along at 40mph and above. This is a win win. More people think it’s safe enough to cycle, plus fewer car drivers driving more slowly. Much nicer place.
Yup, totally agree. Either put bike lanes in or extend the pavement with enforcement for folk who think that means it's a parking place.
If the roads were an industrial site, there's no way they would allow traffic at even 20mph with vulnerable humans in the mix.
I'm all for the 20mph limit. I'd like to see it even lower e.g. 15mph. Most of our inner city and town roads were built at a time when pedestrian were common on the road and the fastest thing was a bicycle.
It's ludicrous that car drivers think it's safe to go fast on those sorts of roads.
We were in the boarders recently observing the new 20 mph signs and getting overtaken by locals all the time.
I live in the Borders and have never been over taken whilst driving at the new limit. Not once. I think you are bending your version of the truth.
We were on the Gower peninsula in the spring, there were no roads with a speed limit above 40mph. Even the M4 at Swansea is limited to 50, for air quality reasons. It was excellent for cyclists (not the motorway, obv.)
We were in the boarders recently observing the new 20 mph signs and getting overtaken by locals all the time.
I live in the Borders and have never been over taken whilst driving at the new limit. Not once. I think you are bending your version of the truth.
I wouldn't say 'all the time but I've had half a dozen overtake while I've been driving at 20. I now straddle the line if I see someone attempting it.
.
Interestingly drivers seem much happier to sit behind a car doing 20mph than behind a bike doing 20mph. Very much an attitude of 'a bike!I must overtake!'
And it's not just that bikes are easier to overtake I don't think, often they will overtake me as I'm doing 20mph on a bike and then slow down to do 20 too once they're passed
Also I’m convinced that a fair few drivers drive purely by feel and never (unless spying a speed camera/police car) look at their speedo.
I agree except that it seems a great many don't even look at their speedo when they do see a speed camera. Everyone just brakes, which is why the traffic slows to 30mph at the local well-known cam, despite it being in a 40 limit.
On the speed awareness course I went on* quite a few people protested 'yeah well no-one looks at their speedo do they?'
* long story, not entirely my fault...
