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My mum is 75 and doesn’t ride every day but *does* do two 50km+ rides each week with a cycle group. Judging by her FB pics 75yo women who ride a lot are not remotely exceptional.
OK - now we know you are taking the piss, and just wasting everyone's time. Nobody has that poor a grasp of sample bias.
kerley
There sure are, was just debating a clearly incorrect statement that horse riding doesn’t have a gender in-balance.
No you weren't you were posting international numbers for Olympic events that involve horses to say more women ride horses than men.
How do you explain this;
2 Sept 2019 — Two thirds of the 29,731 athletes in the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) database of competitors in the Olympics disciplines of dressage, eventing and jumping were females, with 83.10% in dressage, 73.175% in eventing and 61.311% in jumping,
That no more valid than me posting the number of men vs women riding horses at Agincourt to try and prove the inverse or female vs male riders in Mongolia or as I said people who just ride horses every day because that's their job.
OK – now we know you are taking the piss, and just wasting everyone’s time. Nobody has that poor a grasp of sample bias.
Really ?
2 Sept 2019 — Two thirds of the 29,731 athletes in the International Equestrian Federation (FEI) database of competitors in the Olympics disciplines of dressage, eventing and jumping were females, with 83.10% in dressage, 73.175% in eventing and 61.311% in jumping,
Thanks for the reasonable post Poly. You're coming at this from a POV of wanting more women to cycle. No quarrel with that, evangelism for your hobby is always good.
As for the exact numbers cycling, a 33/66 split seems entirely plausible, no quarrel with that either.
My point is more:
Also most of the people on here being men seem to be pretty content with the choices they have made irrespective of the impact of the the nature nurture argument. They just don’t feel unhappy about it. So if they don’t feel unhappy do they actually have a problem?
So if the answer to the above is no they don’t have a problem then what makes them think women have a problem with their choices regardless of how those choices were made?
but an unconscious bias is where it becomes puzzling. If it’s because of a social stigma it becomes concerning
Why does it matter ?
I know our Surrey CC schools cycling coordinator very well. (for reasons totally unrelated to cycling)
Everyone is given the chance but you can't force people who don't want to (unlike say football)
They all get the chance at a very early age if for whatever reason they don't take it up why assume a hidden reason.
Take a completely different activity.. lets say all kids are given the opportunity to learn an instrument but for some reason Oboe is 85% boys and Flute is 85% girls ???
(I completely randomly picked two orchestral instruments and numbers) for the sake of the explanation lets say the instrument is chosen from a hat.
Why does this balance need to be redressed ?
Should they all put the tickets back in the hat until they get something close to 50/50?
5 years later a percentage are still playing an instrument ? Say 30% of Oboe and 60% of flute%
You can/could imply or infer this has something to do with gender... due to the initial split but it could equally be the Oboe was just a pain to carry? Perhaps it does and the girls just moved on faster? decided to concentrate on school work?
There could be all sorts of reasons and the most important thing is actually they are happy without the outcome.
Not EVERYONE wants to play an instrument... out of those that do not all of them want to play it MORE than doing something else. (whatever that something else is)
For young kids probably the reason most might drop out might be simply because they want to hang out with their friends not practice an instrument. Who knows ??? Surely its more important they had an opportunity and their reasons for not keeping it up are up to them so long as they are happy?
dup post
This thread really is a window into another world isn't it. Not wonder equal rights is so hard to achieve. Staggering really.
Who cares? I care, and I think others will too. You’ve illustrated a very good point there, I think that what ever the driving force it is that you’ve identified above is at least worth knowing about. The current generation of people may be happy with their outcomes, but I for one don’t want to see participants being lost in a way which affects demographics unequally in that way.
If girls/women are finding more fun elsewhere, then that’s fine, I’m not about to wrestle them off their horse and make them enjoy cycling instead (although it would keep the bridleways cleaner), but I think it’s worth listening to the people who have had the experience of being a minority in cycling and why others like them may not be so inclined to stick with the hobby. I enjoy cycling, and I’d like others to as well. I want my sport to be inclusive, and not selective. Diversity is a good thing and asking ourselves why we’re lacking it is important.
I suspect that there are cultural/societal aspects which drive that far more than the activity itself. And if that is the case then... maybe as members of the cycling community that could be something that we get to influence.
Maybe we should start by listening more to the people who have had this experience for themselves. Thanks to the women who’ve commented previously.
@steve-xtc
Really ?
He picked bad stats to illustrate his point - but it does seem that overall he was probably right:
https://www.britishequestrian.org.uk/getInvolved/equality-diversity
As for the exact numbers cycling, a 33/66 split seems entirely plausible, no quarrel with that either.
that's a very optimistic number and certainly doesn't include all "flavours" of cycling.
Cycling UK report that on average men travel 3x as far as women on bikes each year: https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/campaigns-guide/women-cycling
My point is more:
Also most of the people on here being men seem to be pretty content with the choices they have made irrespective of the impact of the the nature nurture argument. They just don’t feel unhappy about it. So if they don’t feel unhappy do they actually have a problem?
So if the answer to the above is no they don’t have a problem then what makes them think women have a problem with their choices regardless of how those choices were made?
Your argument is flawed for a number of reasons:
- I don't think people make conscious decisions about the hobbies they fall into (especially teenagers as per the OP - we do the things our parents/friends/teachers do (or encourage us to do)).
- I don't think you have to be unhappy with the things you are doing to have missed an opportunity to do something else
- What you are saying is if one group of people is happy with their lot in life, then the other groups must be too.
Dismissing the possibility of a structural gender imbalance prevents any possible way of redreessing it. Perhaps geometries or saddles are just wrong for women. Perhaps (some) bike shops are not welcoming / helpful to women. Perhaps the bike industry peddles poorer quality (heavier, slower, etc) kit at women by painting it in pastel shades - but giving them a less enjoyable experience. Perhaps cynical bits of the media/society are over-emphasising the need to become barbie dolls to 12 yr olds and make up and bikes don't mix. Perhaps parents are more likely to buy a teenage boy a new bike - and a girl something else. Perhaps some men are really unwelcoming at trail centres. Perhaps some men are lecherous (there's at least one comment on this thread about denim hotpants!) of women on bikes. Perhaps some car drivers are even less tolerant to women on the roads. OR perhaps as Molgrips said we reinforce societal stereotypes so that the perceived barrier for a girl/woman who wants to get involved is way higher than it needs to be.
So even if girls/women have chosen not to ride, why would you accept the factors that lead them to the choice are just how life should be. Why can someone not start a thread highlighting something that addresses an imbalance without it being (as you imply in your first post on the thread) that "its just not in their nature".
And of course, those barriers work both ways - there's probably a flower arranging website somewhere discussing how to get more men involved. Just because there are some things you are less likely to find men doing, doesn't (a) mean they wouldn't actually enjoy / be good at them (b) mean we shouldn't try to address gender imbalance for women.
Right I'm out - or I'm going to have to put a helmet on as I keep banging my head on the desk.
I think it’s worth listening to the people who have had the experience of being a minority in cycling and why others like them may not be so inclined to stick with the hobby.
Agreed but then you also need to listen to those who simply lost interest or had another interest be more important.
Then IMHO you need to be very careful not to suggest to limit the choices they made because of your bias even though you might not like their answers.
I'm being blunt and hopefully not rude but many of those answers will probably be "its borin innit" or "I was more interested in boys/boy bands" and dare I even suggest "I only did cycling cos we couldn't afford a horse"
Lets say there was a national survey on pet ownership and it turns out more males prefer cats or dogs to females? (whichever it turns out)
Do we need to fix it? I suspect many answers would be "I'm too busy to care for a pet"... and many others might actually be "because I had one as a child"
So its IMPORTANT that females who want to cycle aren't put off because of cultural pressure but its also just as important that "it wasn't interesting to me" is perfectly acceptable.
One of my mates daughters has just got to 13... she's up for riding but as a purely social activity and myself and my mate think its a shame she drops out of competitive DH (as she's quite good) but more important she had the opportunity and can go back to riding if/when she wants. (Same with Kayaking)
Her mum in the other hand is made up... she was never happy with the girl doing DH... his (younger) son on the other hand has never been that keen but Mum thinks he should.
This is almost the exact conversation I had with my mate 2 weeks or so ago...
Her mum in the other hand is made up… she was never happy with the girl doing DH… his (younger) son on the other hand has never been that keen but Mum thinks he should.
Dear god even your pointless anecdotes show the opposite of what you are saying!!!
The only people I see grazing their horses on wasteland and trotting through them local estate are men. I don’t recall ever seeing a woman doing this.
I don’t know what point I’m making here. 😀
Pikeys cant ride horses?
poly
He picked bad stats to illustrate his point – but it does seem that overall he was probably right
Did he pick bad stats by accident or design? Was it to prove a point by delibately choosing the most biased stats?
As I say total recorded women on horses at Agincourt when in the countryside of france and England at the time women were ploughing and riding horses whilst all the men were off shooting arrows at each other?
Totally irrelevant just like Olympic equestrian competitors
but it does seem that overall he was probably right
In what way ... do you think the reason MOST people in the UK (m or f) don't "do horse riding" is anything to do with gender or perhaps everything to do with it being an elite hobby few can afford or simply we have a largely urban population?
The point was they are "the only man in the village rides horses because the rest see it as a female thing" ... sorry but that's plain daft.
He may or may not be "the only man in the village that rides horses" but there are 101 other reasons other males in the village may not want/like riding horses as a hobby and the most common are probably due to time/work etc..
– I don’t think people make conscious decisions about the hobbies they fall into (especially teenagers as per the OP – we do the things our parents/friends/teachers do (or encourage us to do)).
Well teenagers ... mostly what their friends do...
– I don’t think you have to be unhappy with the things you are doing to have missed an opportunity to do something else
No but there is always something else and gender is not the only reason or even a reason.
That should be obvious... as a child in NE lancs I had little chance to do bobsleigh or ski-jumping ... not because I was male simply because I lived in NE lancs.
I did however have ample opportunity to cycle, climb, kayak, cave, hike etc.
– What you are saying is if one group of people is happy with their lot in life, then the other groups must be too.
Point 3 is just a non sequiter. I didn't learn to ski until I was 19 ... however I did have the opportunity to do all those other things.
Dismissing the possibility of a structural gender imbalance prevents any possible way of redreessing it.
Yet assuming it does the inverse.
Perhaps geometries or saddles are just wrong for women.
Geometries are what they are and trying to say all women or men fit a model is just incorrect.
Yes women are on average shorter and have smaller hands... but in reality the geometry of people changes more.
As an example (real example) a Youtuber once suggested that the SLX shifters would be better for his wife... he said this because the activation pressure is considerably lower than XT but instead a bunch of people jumped in saying how he was saying XT or XTR was not good enough for women.
My 11yr old has SLX... because his hands are smaller not because I'm too tight to give him XT (and draw the line at XTR)
Perhaps (some) bike shops are not welcoming / helpful to women.
Perhaps some men are really unwelcoming at trail centres.
Perhaps some men are lecherous (there’s at least one comment on this thread about denim hotpants!) of women on bikes.
Sorry, chopped this in cut and paste because that is a whole new can of worms...
There again you're generalising what "all women want"
Perhaps the Youtube icon was chosen for the hotpants and to get more clicks?
Perhaps some bike shops are over helpful... perhaps some male sales people try not to fawn over the attractive female customer and they don't get the attention ???
Perhaps cynical bits of the media/society are over-emphasising the need to become barbie dolls to 12 yr olds and make up and bikes don’t mix.
Ah... don't get me onto the media .. oops but yes... and the same media perhaps that also pedals the "wait for a male attendant then wear a tight top and hot pants and ask for a discount"
Unfortunately not ALL women want the same things.... it would be simpler for heterosexual men if they did. But not ALL men want the same things ... I'm most certainly not attracted to women with false nails, eyelashes and makeup.
The thing is some men are attracted to "barbie dolls" and and some women want to be the woman that is attractive to these men.... just like some gay men/women are attracted to more effeminate men/women and others the opposite.
It would be a bloody boring world though if everyone was the same.
Perhaps the bike industry peddles poorer quality (heavier, slower, etc) kit at women by painting it in pastel shades – but giving them a less enjoyable experience.
So I was out riding yesterday with two very good female riders ... certainly not ones I'd label as Barbie Dolls.
I'm pretty confident a direct quote whilst discussing her bike was "I don't care as long as it's pink"
AA
Dear god even your pointless anecdotes show the opposite of what you are saying!!!
Nope you just seem unable to get past some conspiracy theory that less women than men cycle due to other reasons than they just don't want to.
Anecdotes or fact are only pointless to you when they don't prove your conspiracy theory.
As I mentioned previously my sons mother doesn't think her sister should compete in DH/EWS "because she's female or any of the other sports she enjoys. She nearly died in an avalanche and she said "she shouldn't be doing these dangerous sports".
I happen to know (through my kid) a lot of young female riders (you won't believe it but my what's app has group chats from several "sisters of shred" and We'll be at the next one Saturday)
Overwhelmingly its mothers who seem to think their girls shouldn't be doing this not the dads...
and as once mother said about 2 weeks ago (on a different one) "I'm not going to be one of those mothers that sit at the bottom and tells her daughter not to do this and that because she's a girl".
The point of that "anecdote" is she was the one identifying this culture of mum's who don't think their daughters should be doing "dangerous sports".
From what I see the main influence on these girls not continuing is the mother (or second after what their mates do) ... unlike the one I tried to quote or the other mother I was riding with 2 days later when she broke her fib and tib. (Who's 2 daughters are both into horses as it happens)
Pikeys cant ride horses?
No need if you can get them in the lift?
I haven't read this thread. As a woman, should I bother?
Nope you just seem unable to get past some conspiracy theory that less women than men cycle due to other reasons than they just don’t want to.
You really really don't get it do you, its quite funny.
I haven’t read this thread. As a woman, should I bother?
Dear god no, run, run now!!!!
Or better still cycle now!
I haven’t read this thread. As a woman, should I bother?
Probably not unless you think all girls should ride bikes whether they want to or not..
The video is well worth watching though.
Only if it completely out of your own free will, and not as a result of subconscious social conditioning.
If there’s a choice, I’d definitely recommend doing something else with your evening.
AA
You really really don’t get it do you, its quite funny.
Its actually quite sad that you can't see that you want to tell other people what they should and shouldn't enjoy according to your ideals.
I very much doubt you will find the answers on a cycling forum but if you go and ask 1000 women who don't cycle and ask why they don't cycle you might have to convince them they should because society has prevented them doing what they really secretly wanted to do but were prevented doing.
You might want to expand this and cover a few sports at the same time like heliskiing, luge, etc.
AA "So do you participate in ski jumping"
Confused female "are you having a laugh"
AA "So you don't are you aware that is because it is portrayed as a male sport and you really really always wanted to do it"
Confused female: Erm... no its cos we don't have a ski jump near me.
AA If they did women's only days at the ski jump would that have made you continue
Confused female "Look its the bloody Isle of Wight ... we don't have a ski jump" ...
AA "but if they did"
Confused female "probably not I spent most of my teens at the go carting track with my mates and sailing then I got a job and I barely have time to pick the shopping up on the way home"
doubleeagle
I suspect that there are cultural/societal aspects which drive that far more than the activity itself. And if that is the case then… maybe as members of the cycling community that could be something that we get to influence.
There probably are but then by rights if that's the case I should like football.
Much as I got into cycling (at 14-15) because of a girl called Toni I think we broke up at least in part because I just didn't like football and she did.
Not societal pressure .. not like she was "ooh you're not a real bloke" but because I wanted to do other stuff at the weekends like running or climbing rather than go to watch football which I find incredibly boring.
In the end (a few years later) I drifted away from road cycling because the truth is I just don't really like team sports... except Rugby and that's really only playing not watching.
Its actually quite sad that you can’t see that you want to tell other people what they should and shouldn’t enjoy according to your ideals.
I very much doubt you will find the answers on a cycling forum but if you go and ask 1000 women who don’t cycle and ask why they don’t cycle you might have to convince them they should because society has prevented them doing what they really secretly wanted to do but were prevented doing.
You might want to expand this and cover a few sports at the same time like heliskiing, luge, etc.
AA “So do you participate in ski jumping”
Confused female “are you having a laugh”
AA “So you don’t are you aware that is because it is portrayed as a male sport and you really really always wanted to do it”
Confused female: Erm… no its cos we don’t have a ski jump near me.
AA If they did women’s only days at the ski jump would that have made you continue
Confused female “Look its the bloody Isle of Wight … we don’t have a ski jump” …
AA “but if they did”
Confused female “probably not I spent most of my teens at the go carting track with my mates and sailing then I got a job and I barely have time to pick the shopping up on the way home”
Is there a shorter version 🙄🙄🙄
Its actually quite sad that you can’t see that you want to tell other people what they should and shouldn’t enjoy according to your ideals.
No I want everyone to feel open and able and wanted in any sport/hobby, that you can't see this is monumentally amusing and says so much about you! The lack of understanding about unconscious bias you display is startling tbh.
Stevextc - you do realise when people are talking about social conditioning, no-one is actually accusing you, personally of actively turning women away from any activities. So you talking about all the female WhatsApp members you communicate with is kind of irrelevant? What is more relevant is that you have repeatedly stated that some parents are actively trying to discourage their daughters from MTB as it's "not for girls". That's social conditioning. That is what we are talking about. So in your examples you meet and interact with young women where one parent or other part of their social circle has encouraged participation, while another has actively discouraged it based on their sex. I'm struggling to understand that you cannot conceive of any young women out there raised in environments where for instance both parents have actively discouraged participation in MTB as it is "not for girls". They won't be on your WhatsApp, you won't meet them on the trails, because they have been conditioned to believe the sport is not for them.
No-one on this thread has stated that only men are responsible for this happening - but the phrasing of your contributions suggests that you believe that is what is implied.
Is there a shorter version
I have just given up reading them, they are really not worth the time.
6 pages of angry men arguing about why women don't like bikes whilst the four women that did respond are roundly ignored.
Bra-****ing-vo fellas, 👏.
Everyone one of you ought to take step back and have a critical look at yourselves.
Well I am not angry for one, maybe you need to make more effort to understand what people are writing than what you want to think they are writing.
I also have very little clue as to what gender a lot of the posters are unless they state it in the posts.
Agree, no anger from me and I also don't know what gender the posters are but more importantly that doesn't actually matter.
Cinnamon_girl is wouldn’t. But the video that the OP posted is very good.
I’ve realised I was wrong and there is no such thing as social pressure or gender bias.
Outofbreath and SteveXTC have both taught me the error of my ways.
Also I have a headache from banging my head against a brick wall.
I ordered a copy of in invisible women. As recommended earlier in the thread.
Retromud
Stevextc – you do realise when people are talking about social conditioning, no-one is actually accusing you, personally of actively turning women away from any activities. So you talking about all the female WhatsApp members you communicate with is kind of irrelevant? What is more relevant is that you have repeatedly stated that some parents are actively trying to discourage their daughters from MTB as it’s “not for girls”. That’s social conditioning. That is what we are talking about. So in your examples you meet and interact with young women where one parent or other part of their social circle has encouraged participation, while another has actively discouraged it based on their sex. I’m struggling to understand that you cannot conceive of any young women out there raised in environments where for instance both parents have actively discouraged participation in MTB as it is “not for girls”. They won’t be on your WhatsApp, you won’t meet them on the trails, because they have been conditioned to believe the sport is not for them.
No-one on this thread has stated that only men are responsible for this happening – but the phrasing of your contributions suggests that you believe that is what is implied.
Can I start at the end ... several people on this thread have stated categorically that the problem is down to white males.
The issue if it exists is two separate things from what I observe.
As I said the social conditioning in this that exists that I see is exclusively from mothers.
As I think ashat said this isn't her experience. (Which thinking about it make sense)
I think both are relevant... and as I've been trying to point out the result of sample bias.
My son's mother will tell her "little" (35 yr old) sister who is very successful and independent she shouldn't participate in these sports ... because (IMHO) she's her sister. She wouldn't say it to Ashat or my female cycling buddies (unless she'd had a few glasses of wine perhaps)... but she will say it to me. My mate Annabel broke her fib and tib 2 weeks ago... my son asked after her (over dinner) and the response from his mother "it's her own fault, she shouldn't be doing it"... her sister very nearly died (that isn't an exaggeration) in an avalanche and her response "it's her own fault, she shouldn't be doing it".. same when she lost part of her finger last year... no sympathy at all because she's doing "man stuff" doubtless she'd have the same sympathy if she'd fallen off a ladder doing "man stuff" like painting.
However .. why would these other mothers say this to me (or annabels husband) and not Annabel or ashat ???
I think it's because they somehow think that because I'm male I'll agree but Annabel or ashat won't.
What do you think? (That's actually a question not rhetoric)
So in the first thread of this... (as I've been saying) from what I see it is not the males (under 50 at least) but actually females who for one reason or another (probably a whole different thread) didn't want this change. Lets just hypothise many of these are quite happy driving the sprogs 1/2 mile to school in the SUV/4WD and not having to work.
Another observation is that many males are more worried about preserving some status quo for males and many females for females.
I mentioned football as an example... an ex manager of mine used to ridicule 2 of us and deliberately use football analogies. This is possibly even more outrageous as he'd probably drop dead given 30 secs of exercise and my other mate/colleague packed it in and is an outdoors instructor and lowland rescue volunteer.
So the thing is he can say he's "into football"... but he shouldn't be able to assume I or my mate are just because we are male
The same thing should surely apply for females? (or any other gender identity)
What is more relevant is that you have repeatedly stated that some parents are actively trying to discourage their daughters from MTB as it’s “not for girls”. That’s social conditioning. That is what we are talking about. So in your examples you meet and interact with young women where one parent or other part of their social circle has encouraged participation, while another has actively discouraged it based on their sex. I’m struggling to understand that you cannot conceive of any young women out there raised in environments where for instance both parents have actively discouraged participation in MTB as it is “not for girls”. They won’t be on your WhatsApp, you won’t meet them on the trails, because they have been conditioned to believe the sport is not for them.
It's not one parent or the other it is ALWAYS the mother.
(The reasons for that... as above?)
So in the case both parents have discouraged due to gender I just don't see the issue or how iut would change without forcing people to do what they don't want.
It is what it is .... cycling is just cycling. You and I (and lots of females) love it but it's just a hobby/sport/job.
If it turns out less females as a percent don't fall in love with it for life that's just what it is.
As I say I know the Surrey CC schools cycling coordinator well socially. I'm pretty certain she encourages girls every bit as much as boys... quite possibly more.
However I don't think people should be FORCED.... if they don't want to cycle then they don't... any more than forced to play football/netball or anything else.
I happen to know neither does she... as my lad won't ride on roads and has no desire to ever ride on roads. He declined the opportunity to do the school cycling and it was as simple as that. He didn't get pressured into doing it "because he should try" etc. he just didn't want to BUT he had the opportunity as did every other child M/F/other.
The issue here is life is full of expectations others have for you but M/F or anything else you shouldn't have to fit into a stereotype.
I simply don't like team sports ... I don't want a leadership role in work .. all things others have decided for me "I really want if only I knew it".
My brother happens to be gay and has expectations from the gay community to be someone he's not as another example.
This thread is actually a complete hijack of a celebration of a great video to some conspiracy theory as to why more girls don't ride bikes with name calling and an agenda since about the 3rd post. Anyone saying "so what maybe less girls just want to ride bikes is jumped on or told their opinion is irrelevant" and shut down/cancelled.
Anyone who thinks the thumbnail and hotpants are accidental is seriously deluded...
Anyone who wants to support these girls would do better giving their video a like or comment.
Making derogatory comments about people who make comments on the hotpants is just screwed up... unless they criticise the girls for the thumbnail as well.
The point really is it's just cycling ... many girls and boys simply won't do it because their parents sail or surf etc. just as with notable exceptions few people in the UK will ever try ski-jumping or bobsleigh.
Some won't do it because their parents don't think it's a suitable activity for girls... but those that really want to will and those who might have but didn't probably weren't going to have it as a passion. (I'm talking 2021 here not 1999)....
You could just as easily talk about the barriers to mens netball and the gender paygap ... perhaps on a mens netball forum somewhere people are right now?
Am I pissed I wasn't given the opportunity to play mens netball?
Nope.. it would be wasted effort as I don't like team sports regardless of how many times I told that is a disability or fault on my part... nothing to do with gender.
I’ve realised I was wrong and there is no such thing as social pressure or gender bias.
Outofbreath and SteveXTC have both taught me the error of my ways.
That's absolutely not what I'm saying and I don't believe it's what OOB is saying either.
I have just given up reading them, they are really not worth the time.
Let me help.. do you believe in flat earth as well?
I have just given up reading them, they don't support my conspiracy theory.
That’s absolutely not what I’m saying and I don’t believe it’s what OOB is saying either.
Yup, my whole point relies on there being gender bias.
I can hardly say that if men are happy with the things we're biased towards then maybe we should consider that women might be equally happy with their choices without accepting gender bias.
I'll offer another bias, men are biased towards thinking women ought to like the stuff men like. Women are more tolerant and accept that men are capable of making their own choices of interests without the interference of women. Rather than women learning to like airfix spitfires from men, men should learn tolerance towards other people's interests from women. In spite of my words I'm as bad at this as the rest of the patriarchy, I make my daughter join in doing the stuff I like, (She's getting old enough to say no now, but not quite yet!) I constantly nag my wife to cycle the school run instead of always driving. (With zero success.)
Viva la difference: It would be a very boring world of we all liked the same stuff.
I’ve just bought Invisible Women. Thanks for the recommendation.
Kudos to purchasers of Invisble Women. I also found this when looking for some more research articles on the topic
And that’s a link to the whole edition! Scroll to P4 for the essay on male privilege
Yup, my whole point relies on there being gender bias.
Whereas my point is perhaps more why is gender bias different to socio economic, geographical or any other bias and why do we need to change it and how?
I also find the urge to sample bias very strange...
What's the problem (other than perhaps not liking the answers) with asking women who don't cycle their reasons rather than those who do anyway?
This is why I think riding horses is a good example...the claim seems to be men don't ride horses because its seen as a woman's thing. The quite obvious reason I don't ride horses (as a hobby) is because I don't come from affluent family, we had meat on the table 3-4 days a week, no heating in winter but apparently the reason I don't ride horses must be "because I view it as a womens thing"? Nothing to do with not having a horse or the money to stable and feed one.
Why not ask 1000 men who don't ride horses as a hobby their reasons why not, not someone who does tell us why why the other 999 don't.
At the end of the day if giving everyone a chance to do a pass-time more men or women prefer one activity over another then what's so bad and why try to change it. Are women who prefer not to cycle as a hobby "letting women down"?
I think its also obvious why most UK men and women don't do ski-jumping just as its obvious why more people don't ride horses as a hobby and it has sod all to do with gender.
Thanks for the article, nice to have some referenced facts.
"Men are often more constrained by concepts
of masculinity than women are by femininity,
and women are able to flip between
definitions with far more acceptance and
ease than men (Hargreaves, 1994)."
Starkly demonstrated by this thread. Men who accept they have been conditioned towards/away from stuff refusing to do something about it and take on pastimes that they consider "female". QED.
The majority of humans are social/pack animals by nature and as such there is always going to be some form of social pressure(that could be internally or externally generated) that goes along with the need to belong and be accepted.
Rather than demanding that the media feed everyone with differing gender examples of every possible interest/sport passtime etc (how the hell do you achieve that anyway?)as seemed to be suggested earlier. Why can't we equip people to recognise when they are unhappy/dissatisfied with whatever they are doing and teach them that there is nothing to fear from trying something new even if it means moving out of their current social circle?
OOB
Starkly demonstrated by this thread. Men who accept they have been conditioned towards/away from stuff refusing to do something about it and take on pastimes that they consider “female”. QED.
The reason I don't count sewing as a pass-time is the same as welding. Neither are a passtime in and of themselves and just tools. If someone enjoys either for what they are that's also fine.
Interesting article .. I'll perhaps print it out and leave it to be read?
It fem-splains that I'm paying £1200 for a AirB&B with plugs for hairdryers for a beach holiday neither me or the kid want due to white male privilege.
jordan
Rather than demanding that the media feed everyone with differing gender examples of every possible interest/sport passtime etc (how the hell do you achieve that anyway?)as seemed to be suggested earlier. Why can’t we equip people to recognise when they are unhappy/dissatisfied with whatever they are doing and teach them that there is nothing to fear from trying something new even if it means moving out of their current social circle?
Gosh really ??
Next someone will say
Why can’t we equip people to recognise when they are happy/satisfied with whatever they are doing and teach them that there is nothing to fear from continuing to be happy/satisfied even if it means not moving out of their current social circle?
Let me help.. do you believe in flat earth as well?
I have just given up reading them, they don’t support my conspiracy theory.
Okay, that was about 1% the length of your normal posts so you can do it but unfortunately it still makes no sense as I really don't know what the hell flat earth and conspiracy theory has got to do with anything but I will leave you to it.
stevextc
Gosh really ??
Next someone will say
Why can’t we equip people to recognise when they are happy/satisfied with whatever they are doing and teach them that there is nothing to fear from continuing to be happy/satisfied even if it means not moving out of their current social circle?
Isn't that kind of what you've been saying all along in a rather roundabout way? Not that I think there is anything wrong with people being content with what they are doing at all. Oh, and I probably should have used the word acknowledge rather than recognise.