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I got halfway through this thread and gave up. Sad to see so many of you fellow men being sucked in by social conditioning and perpetuating the lies that make it so much harder for anyone who’s a little bit different to enjoy their life. So disappointing...
Thank you to the ones who actually understand the problem.
Stevextc - apologies, still typing away on a tiny phone here and don't know how to quote properly but I'll try to respond to those direct questions.
First - I may have misinterpreted the previous posters references to middle aged white guys. I had been reading them as saying that middle aged white guys were a problem - in trying to resolve issues of gender bias (or any other exclusionary bias), because they are kind of a homogenous group, who don't have the lived experience of anyone else to work out what would be required to successfully increase diversity. That was my own interpretation; it could have been that they were all referencing an organised white guy conspiracy that is deliberately trying to exclude women/minorities/anyone not a middle aged white guy.
I don't know why your friend's mother (is that the right relationship I'm referencing?) would conspire with you that she believes her daughter should give up outdoor pursuits as they are not suitable for girls. Unless they actually believe that having a penis would have somehow prevented injury or accident occurring, I can only suggest social conditioning - they believe some pursuits are not suitable for females, they believe that you as man would agree with that (as you do manly things instead of say, embroidery), and that females that she sees as "not normal" as they partake in manly pursuits would not agree with her. Obviously, I don't agree with the whole genderising of activities implied in that.
It's great that you think that no-one should have to live up to societies expectations of them regarding gender, no-one should be forced to do things they don't want to (I don't think anyone has actually suggested that have they?), and that everyone should be given the same opportunities. It's on that last point that I would like to leave a little thought experiment with you, based on the thoughts on social conditioning that you have expressed in this thread.
Imagine a father, a run of the mill average dad, watches the footie on the weekends, jogs to keep fit but isn't an enthusiast, never been into cycling. His teenage twins have been offered an afternoon trial of MTB through the local schools cycling co-ordinator type person, all fully funded. The son arrives home afterwards, "hey dad, that was great, really enjoyed it". Dad replies "excellent news son, it's not my thing but glad you had a good time".
Daughter chimes in "yeah it was great but, you know, it was a bit weird because out of the 20 of us, I was the only girl". To which the dad replies:
"Don't worry. If you felt a bit weird about being the only girl there, that's just because you don't really like MTB enough. If you wanted to do it enough, it wouldn't be weird for you being surrounded by only boys. Don't take it as a bad thing though, I mean as a girl you're statistically less likely than your brother to actually like it in the first place, just because you're a girl, and far fewer girls like MTB than boys, so if you don't want to go again that would put you in the normal range for girls. Actually, I was speaking to your friend Jenny's parents; she'd asked about going but they both said it wasn't really a sport for girls so in the end she didn't sign up even though you said she really wanted to when she first found out about it. Guess she just didn't want to do it that much after all. Thinking on it, it's probably best if you didn't take up MTB with your brother as your mum will hate you doing a boy sport, because you're her little girl"
So yeah, boys and girls, both getting exactly the same opportunities. Except somehow, I bet they don't seem like the same opportunities to both girls and boys
I’m sorry. I couldn’t see past the hot pants the girls were wearing…..
1. They are girls/kids?
2. They are just denim shorts
3. wtaf?
For the edification of alpin (and stevextc):
Hotpants
Jorts
Action jorts
Recommend having a head wobble or two.
And here’re some Dangle-pants for you to study:
I showed the vid to my year 9 tutor group and we talked a bit afterwards. About 10 boys ride to school, no girls. Major barrier to girls riding to school is skirts apparently. I wonder how many dismiss cycling for travel or recreation in the future as they don't do it as kids. The girls are allowed to wear trousers to school but don't want to. Seems they prefer to wear skirts than ride bikes. Only one or two girls ride bikes at all.
Just asked my 9yo daughter, she loves cycling to school, but rarely gets to do so. (By chance we did twice this week.)
She says she currently has no problems riding to school in skirt/dress but *if* she had to choose between cycling to school in trousers and wearing a skirt/dress she'd rather wear the skirt than cycle. Girls can wear trousers to her school, but in her class only one girl does.
I hadn't forseen this - the high school we'd ideally choose for her is an easy cycle ride but a heck of a long walk. If she refuses to cycle it's going to be a nightmare. 😱
With the risk of distracting into a skirt debate is the reason the girls want to wear skirts more social conditioning?
Are boys allowed to wear skirts and if they were would they and if not why not?
I also think there is a difference between riding a bike (going to school, going to shops, going to friends house) as a means of transport and cycling (going out and riding a bike solely for the enjoyment of cycling)
My mum used to ride a bike for transport but would never go out cycling.
Clothing choice has to be near 100pc social conditioning. Different cultures wear different clothes and trousers were only invented relatively recently, before that we all wore skirts/dresses (with different names). The root cause of each gender wanting to dress differently might be nature, of course.
But just because I know I've been conditioned to wear trousers doesn't mean I'm going to start to wear kilts. Trousers might be too hot in the summer but personally, I find trousers quite practical. I imagine women feel the same way, they like their skirts/dresses and are happy to make the required compromises.
Viva la difference.
I also think there is a difference between riding a bike (going to school, going to shops, going to friends house) as a means of transport and cycling (going out and riding a bike solely for the enjoyment of cycling)
My mum used to ride a bike for transport but would never go out cycling.
I'm not sure there is a distinction and if there was I'd say cycling as transport has more merit than cycling purely for fun.
retromud
Stevextc – apologies, still typing away on a tiny phone here and don’t know how to quote properly but I’ll try to respond to those direct questions.
I'm going to try and number stuff (if you want to replay then you can use a number)?
First – I may have misinterpreted the previous posters references to middle aged white guys. I had been reading them as saying that middle aged white guys were a problem – in trying to resolve issues of gender bias (or any other exclusionary bias), because they are kind of a homogenous group, who don’t have the lived experience of anyone else to work out what would be required to successfully increase diversity. That was my own interpretation; it could have been that they were all referencing an organised white guy conspiracy that is deliberately trying to exclude women/minorities/anyone not a middle aged white guy.
I'm getting a bit beyond "middle aged" but ...
(1a) because they are kind of a homogenous group, who don’t have the lived experience of anyone else (1b) to work out what would be required to successfully increase diversity
1a/ I personally (from my experience) don't see how this translates to me. I spent over 1/2 my working life in other cultures and I think there is as much diversity within men or women as there is across it.
By way of analogy (and since we are on STW) take bike sizes.
In a specific population women tend to be shorter and shave shorter legs as a proportion of their height. (The latter was a bit of a shocker but measure them and that's what you get or at least several actual studies found)
However the overlap is huge ... and as a white male I'm tiny in comparison with the average height of a Dutch woman
OK so I didn't choose that just because it's STW but also because height is pretty easy and standardised to measure.
I don't know the exact process for measuring height in the Dutch medical system but I'm fairly confident it doesn't differ significantly enough from the UK or others to change the averages significantly, more over if I wanted to be even more accurate I could go and sample 1000 or 10000 and use a rigorously repeatable measurement method.
In terms of how men or women think about different things?
How exactly do you measure this and indeed has anyone quantitively measured it.
To use the Ontario creative writing example ...
The author has an agenda and has selectively picked facts and data and ignored everything else.
(Exactly as was done to say why men don't ride horses)
Where to even start...but the overwhelming difference I'd see between Ontario and the UK in terms of access to the outdoors is quite simply population density.
2
That was my own interpretation; it could have been that they were all referencing an organised white guy conspiracy that is deliberately trying to exclude women/minorities/anyone not a middle aged white guy.
Well depending who "they" are.
If you do get time then read from the start... see how those who don't agree are just "cancelled"... complete refusal to engage other than name calling and "tou are not alloed an opinion" from the hardcore who's agenda is "white male privilege" just like a flat earth discussion site...
I don’t know why your friend’s mother (is that the right relationship I’m referencing?) would conspire with you that she believes her daughter should give up outdoor pursuits as they are not suitable for girls.
I think you picked up on that incorrectly...
What I'm saying is as I'm frequently at kids DH events I get comments from other parents about their daughters. Much as this is biased in itself non of the Dad's ever made the comments to me but mums do not infrequently... whereas my mate (son's mates mother but equally my mate) doesn't get them and a few times I've even had "what does she think she's doing" when they don't realise we are a group.
Equally, another mate with a son and daughter (I happen to be riding with Saturday coming) is separated and the mother has for as long as I remember been against the daughter doing what she thinks are male sports. The daughter has always been way keener... but she's got to an age now that she's less into the riding and more into socialising.
So straying from actual FACT into opinion ... what do I think is happening?
I think that DH isn't for everyone (gender not even an issue). If you want race you have to be prepared to spend a lot of time in hospital and rehab and these mothers are using this as an excuse why they don't ride DH. (when they don't have to)
To illustrate a different way, my son's mother has an endless list of reasons we (I) have to pay for accommodation for HER summer beach holiday. She was brought up in the same house, parents as her sister.. who would be of the complete opposite opinion about why do we even need a tent.
My sons mother is at the same time both very protective of and hyper critical of her sister.
My son's mother chooses not to earn what she could and I am expected to pick up the shortfall.
Before she was injured her sister announced she was going to quit her job (that she's very successful at but hates) because it makes her unhappy and limits her hobbies of extreme sports (that her sister/son's mother) say's she has no business doing as a woman.
Again, this is ONLY my opinion ... but I think her reasons are at least in part because she doesn't want to have no excuse not to do the things her sister does.
So back to my earlier point... I think there is as much and perhaps even more pressure on women who want to do "male sports" from other women than men.
3/ (Big block but just quoting togather)
Imagine a father, a run of the mill average dad, watches the footie on the weekends, jogs to keep fit but isn’t an enthusiast, never been into cycling. His teenage twins have been offered an afternoon trial of MTB through the local schools cycling co-ordinator type person, all fully funded. The son arrives home afterwards, “hey dad, that was great, really enjoyed it”. Dad replies “excellent news son, it’s not my thing but glad you had a good time”.
Daughter chimes in “yeah it was great but, you know, it was a bit weird because out of the 20 of us, I was the only girl”. To which the dad replies:
“Don’t worry. If you felt a bit weird about being the only girl there, that’s just because you don’t really like MTB enough. If you wanted to do it enough, it wouldn’t be weird for you being surrounded by only boys. Don’t take it as a bad thing though, I mean as a girl you’re statistically less likely than your brother to actually like it in the first place, just because you’re a girl, and far fewer girls like MTB than boys, so if you don’t want to go again that would put you in the normal range for girls. Actually, I was speaking to your friend Jenny’s parents; she’d asked about going but they both said it wasn’t really a sport for girls so in the end she didn’t sign up even though you said she really wanted to when she first found out about it. Guess she just didn’t want to do it that much after all. Thinking on it, it’s probably best if you didn’t take up MTB with your brother as your mum will hate you doing a boy sport, because you’re her little girl”
Except that kids are just more likely to do something their parents do then as teenagers their mates.
In fact you actually hit on something ...
Out of the many girls I know that ride I don't know any who's mums or dads are interested in football. Not like this is actually a discussion or topic but when we have been away weekends I can't remember anyone saying "I need to get a phone signal/radio to check the footy"
If I was to speculate I'd suggest that perhaps the reason may have something to do with rejecting the cultural bias/expectations of sport in the first place.
OOB
Clothing choice has to be near 100pc social conditioning. Different cultures wear different clothes and trousers were only invented relatively recently, before that we all wore skirts/dresses (with different names). The root cause of each gender wanting to dress differently might be nature, of course.
Not quite ... in fact trousers in many cultures were traditionally worn by women.
If we were to mention horse riding cultures then by men and women ...
If you want a bit of a diversion google french bus drivers in nantes and swedish train drivers (with the word skirts in the search)
kerley
I also think there is a difference between riding a bike (going to school, going to shops, going to friends house) as a means of transport and cycling (going out and riding a bike solely for the enjoyment of cycling)
My mum used to ride a bike for transport but would never go out cycling.
For once on this thread I'd totally agree .... and hence my whole point about forcing people to do something WE think is fun with the expectation they find it fun or saying they would find it fun was it not for social conditioning.
p7eaven
1. They are girls/kids?
2. They are just denim shorts
3. wtaf?
So why the issue with Alpin not the girls or their parents?
(Or do you actually believe the thumbnail is a complete accident)
The issue I see is with you and Alpin. Why would the girl’s parents need to raise issue with their daughters wearing shorts on bikes?
The thumbnail I see is a denim sponsorship/tie-in. See the video channel.
They sell jorts, jeans and dungarees. If Jason McRoy up there had been a teen boy in that pic and (say) it was sponsored by Levis, would you and Alpin still feel the need to comment on his jean-shorts being ‘hot’ and distracting? Or would you have seen past his boyish legs and maybe focused on the bikey-fun?
For once on this thread I’d totally agree …. and hence my whole point about forcing people to do something WE think is fun with the expectation they find it fun or saying they would find it fun was it not for social conditioning.
I never thought I would see that happening, although not sure we agree for the same reason 🙂
It is not about forcing people to do something it is about making it seen as an option of something they may like to try. If they are conditioned to think it is not for them they won't try it, just as most boys won't wear a skirt even though in summer it is probably a good idea.
The lack of self awareness on this thread is incredible. You lot do know why there are so many "Someone is wrong on the internet" memes/cartoonsjokes/podcasts/etc. don't you? (rhetorical: I won't be back to read any answers! 😆 )
And Alpin's post was so obviously wind up. Jeez.
The lack of self awareness on this thread is incredible.
Yeah, conversation earlier with wife:
Me: How is daughter going to get to school in future, she won't want to cycle in a skirt when she's older.
Wife: Why can't she cycle in a skirt?
Me: Dunno, I just heard girls didn't like to cycle in skirts.
Wife: (Incredulous) They can. (Followed by a list of friends and neighbours who are regularly seen cycling in dresses and skirts)
I won't quote the bit where I was forced to confess that I had drawn conclusions on the limitations of UK female clothing based on something a bloke on the internet said. I forsee (more) mockery in my immediate future.
OOB
I won’t quote the bit where I was forced to confess that I had drawn conclusions on the limitations of UK female clothing based on something a bloke on the internet said. I forsee (more) mockery in my immediate future.
This is my point... well not just what "some blokes said" but deciding why women don't ride based on asking women that do ride or trying to satisfy an agenda.
Weirdly? My son pushes his BMX home of a night to walk home with his 2 school friends one of whom identifies as female and the other as non-binary.
Equally I can tell you the main reason more kids don't ride to/from school is because they have nowhere to put a helmet at school and have to carry it around with them all day and because bikes are regularly stolen from the bike storage (hence why he rides the BMX to school).
I didn't actually ask but I overheard a conversation saying bye where skirts were discussed but what I heard was "I don't want to wear a shorts or a skort though". (Not sure which one and didn't ask)
It is not about forcing people to do something it is about making it seen as an option of something they may like to try. If they are conditioned to think it is not for them they won’t try it, just as most boys won’t wear a skirt even though in summer it is probably a good idea.
As I've said repeatedly... their are FAR FAR bigger barriers than gender conception.
What do you REALLY think is the reason a boy from an inner city who eats due to foodbanks doesn't ride horses?
Do you actually believe that we have no female ski jumpers (I know of) in the UK because of gender?
I'm sure somewhere on a forum a bunch of blokes are talking about the challenges they have to play netball and the gender equality paygap in mens netball...
I've NOTHING against netball... but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I'm not interested in netball because of anything to do with gender, I'm not interested because I don't like team sports.
I personally think the opposite should be addressed first... that is the cultural expectation for people to like a specific sport/activity and the pressure put on them or forcing them to justify why they don't want to participate rather than just listen when they say "I just don't want to do it".
It is not about forcing people to do something
Where do you* draw the line?
How many times does someone have to say "I'm just not interested" ... do you* accept that or do you* require them to justify it?
I'm using 1st person in a more general sense really.
At the end of the day why not accept that there may be some things less women or men like or even have an appetite for?
If you REALLY want to know why less of a gender do a specific thing don't ask the ones that do it, ask the ones that don't.... without pressure and be willing to listen to their answers including "it just doesn't appeal to me or I'd rather spend the time/money on other things".
As I’ve said repeatedly… their are FAR FAR bigger barriers than gender conception.
Not really. I came from a poor household but I still loved bikes and always had bikes even if those bikes were given to me for free such was the condition.
If you REALLY want to know why less of a gender do a specific thing don’t ask the ones that do it, ask the ones that don’t…. without pressure and be willing to listen to their answers including “it just doesn’t appeal to me or I’d rather spend the time/money on other things”.
Okay, so you don't understand social conditioning
And Alpin’s post was so obviously wind up. Jeez.
I know I’m the OP, yet have only just caught up with this thread. After 6 or so pages I must admit to being none the wiser as to which men are trolling/posting wind-ups/strawman-battles. Ho hum.
________
@Tracey those pics are ace btw - happy days, lucky kids. Still trying to work out yr bike’s Q factor on that classic step descent so am going with foot-slip 😎
It was the 90s before I got a look in at MTB but remember ‘doing steps’ shenanigans featuring prominently, as did ‘hanging off the back of the seat’ while also trying not to sit on a muddy Tioga...
Trying to spin the pedal and find the toe clip, for those old enough to remember them.
I finally ditched them after my first Alps trip to Verbier and bought some proper pedals.
kerley
Okay, so you don’t understand social conditioning
I'm sure the irony is lost but here you are the victim of social conditioning that there is some huge white male conspiracy to keep women out of some sports and you don't realise you've been socially conditioned.
This so reminds me of the last election ... Jezzer being told my millions of traditional labour voters why they were going to vote for someone/anyone else but Labour whilst he would become PM. The MP's of traditional safe labour seats talking to the electorate and Jezzer ignoring them completely and instead only asking those who were going to vote for him regardless.
It's the same with every flat earther, anti-vaxer ...
It starts: The earth is flat, the globe is a conspiracy ...
Why isn't water flung off the earth if its round
gravity and the fact the earth spins so slowly
gravity doesn't exist ...
Huh... why not
It's just a theory and doesn't support my assertion the earth is flat
But the earth isn't flat ...
The earth (supposedly) spins at thousands of miles an hour
The earth is a globe, spin is how fast or slow not a vector and it rotates once every 24 hours... and who told you the earth spins at thousands of miles an hour at the Poles
The poles don't exist... the South pole is an international conspiracy
So it goes on... though of course you can't even say that on a flat earth site without being cancelled.
Why don't more women ride bikes for pleasure?
White Male Privilege
What if they just don't want to?
They do they just got told that because of White Male Privilege
Did you ask a bunch?
No you can't ask the ones who don't ride, only the ones who do....
Erm .... but obviously they may have reasons how will you know if you won't ask
Can't ask.. not listening... hands over ears cos White Male Privilege .. you obviously don't understand social conditioning
This thread is hilarious.
I just asked my Mrs why she doesn't ride a bike, she said it is uncomfortable and boring. I showed her the video in the OP, asked how that can be boring. She got bored and skipped to the end.
She used to ride bikes with her brothers and sisters as a kid, then discovered things she would rather do with her time. Her brother doesn't ride a bike as an adult either.
Make of that what you will...
I’m sure the irony is lost but here you are the victim of social conditioning that there is some huge white male conspiracy to keep women out of some sports and you don’t realise you’ve been socially conditioned.
While male conspiracy, wtf. Social conditioning comes from all places - men of all colours, women of all colours, religions etc,.
But can you see why asking a person who has been socially conditioned (your idea) of why they don't think something is for them is flawed?
Can you please try and answer in less than 10 lines.
After reading some of this I'm trying to decide if being white, male, open minded and trying to bring up two wee boys i'm part of the problem or part of the solution.
It's been a nice week Steve, i reckon you need to get out and ride your bike (but only if you really want to and you'd rather not be doing something else)
toe clip,
Solved!
old enough
Guilty. Swapped a pair on the tourer last summer for some cheap flats for instant lockdown gravelizing. They’ll be back on when I’m up to touring again. I remember having a pair on an early Rockhopper, along with tight toe-straps 😳
#nobailz
I’m possibly not one to ask as I do ride a bike for fun 😀 but like everything the reason why less women might ride bikes less is probably caught up with the roles rest of society.
I don’t believe there is some big conspiracy by men to stop women cycling, in my experience men have been generally friendly and welcoming. Where I live and in my age range they are also by far in the majority.
I don’t claim to have any expert knowledge so could be wrong but here’s how I see it.
- If I was born 20 years earlier I would have been expected to get married and raise children and do all the housework. Maybe you’d do some secretarial work when the children were older. It would have been very rare to do otherwise and so there was little time for hobbies where you might leave the house for a half days ride.
- I’m mid 40’s a lot of women my age who have had children have done most of the child rearing and housework whilst also doing full or part time jobs. Now the child rearing may be by choice but no one wants to do the housework. At my age there are a lot more options, personally I stayed child free got a good job & share the house work 50/50 so have plenty of time for hobbies. For my age I have made non typical choices.
- I see people in their 20’s with children sharing both child raising and housework much more evenly, so now so men and women have much more equal free time. With widely available contraception raising children can be planned & chosen if wanted but it is becoming more accepted that you may choose not to.
- Also 1 week a month many women don’t want to be out for several hours away from a bathroom.
Women as much as men have all this historical baggage that their parents and grandparents pass down as to what is women’s & men’s work and what are potential hobbies. I've had plenty of comments from both women and men as to why I'd want to do the hobbies and career I've chosen.
As society changes we’ll see more how much of these choices are to do with nature and how much to do with how we have been raised and other societal pressures. Till then what’s the harm in showing girls that riding bikes could be for them and is fun. At least then its seen as an option to consider along with everything else. They may then choose to do something completely different just like anyone should be able to.
Late to this party so it may have been covered but lots of pics of kids on bikes (and kids in tank tops washing Cortinas) in the 70s and 80s at https://www.instagram.com/thepeoples_archive/?hl=en. Not sure if there are many lasses but regardless it's a great little corner of Instagram.
Unfortunately OOB and Steve have both fell into the trap that should have been obvious from page 1, and that you both have even mentioned yourselves! Yes, there are other reasons females may not ride bikes, but the fact the there are others surely suggests that the societal reasons are still valid. The horse riding example has also derailed the thread slightly (cost).
Some of the points you both make (about choice and happiness) are spot on and cant be argued. However something you both seem to be missing, that has been pointed out several times, is that just maybe females don't try cycling because
it just doesn’t appeal to me
Isn't actually the reason, the reason would be what has been seen/heard whatever to make them think it doesnt.
I also liked Steve's instrument example up there with the Oboe and Flute. But has been said, if up until that point of being able to choose to try it, if they want to, those males and females had seen ONLY males playing the Oboe and Females playing the Flute then chances are the split would be exactly as suggested.
Late to the thread, but I’ve been riding a bike since I was 4 in the 1970s. I rode all sorts of unsuitable bikes in the woods- including skinny tyred road bikes, shopping bikes with small wheels and a basket! My mum would tell me off for what she saw as wantonly wrecking my bikes, but I ignored her. I certainly wasn’t the only girl riding bikes. All the kids in my street virtually lived on bikes.
When BMXs came out, I really wanted one but my mum said they were for boys. If only mountain bikes had been a thing when I was a kid!
Almost all of the people I go mountain biking with are blokes, but I know a lot of women who ride road bikes.
Till then what’s the harm in showing girls that riding bikes could be for them and is fun. At least then its seen as an option to consider
Because if you read Steve's very long posts you will understand that the men on this thread are just trying to force women to ride bikes and they don't want to!!
it just doesn’t appeal to me Isn’t actually the reason, the reason would be what has been seen/heard whatever to make them think it doesnt.
Yeah, when women like/don't like something it doesn't really count because it's not valid because it just their conditioning. Whereas when men like/don't like something it's a genuine considered viewpoint that everyone respects. As we can see from this thread.
If I say I don't like Marion Keys because I read the first few pages of one and it just doesn't appeal to me that is accepted without question. But if a woman says it she is assumed to just need some mansplaining to help her see the error of her ways set her on the right track.
Men have experienced the same conditioning mechanisms as women. Rather than telling women to change, how about setting an example and you start doing the stuff that doesn't really appeal to you?
Are there other circumstances where women say they don't want to do something but they don't really mean it?
Actually if anyone on here would like a tip: I used to be a regular poster on here but have been put off by either being largely ignored or the butt of condescending remarks including some when I had an accident last year. None of the guys I ride bikes with in real life are at all condescending, but pockets of this forum do have a problem in that respect.
But can you see why asking a person who has been socially conditioned (your idea) of why they don’t think something is for them is flawed?
Nope, not so long as you are willing to listen to the answers.
What is pointless is to keep asking them until they agree with your (not you personally) theory out of pure boredom or frustration.
being largely ignored
That probably just means you're saying reasonable things that people broadly agree with. One more reason a like button would be fantastic.
jag1
I’m possibly not one to ask as I do ride a bike for fun 😀
Just not exclusively
but like everything the reason why less women might ride bikes less is probably caught up with the roles rest of society.
I don’t believe there is some big conspiracy by men to stop women cycling, in my experience men have been generally friendly and welcoming. Where I live and in my age range they are also by far in the majority.
Yeah, who'd a think it when I was a young, single heterosexual male I'd want women to do the same stuff so I could meet women into the same stuff as me ... now I'm an old grumpy past-it I still like meeting women into the same stuff, just cos they are other people.
I don’t claim to have any expert knowledge so could be wrong but here’s how I see it.
– If I was born 20 years earlier I would have been expected to get married and raise children and do all the housework. Maybe you’d do some secretarial work when the children were older. It would have been very rare to do otherwise and so there was little time for hobbies where you might leave the house for a half days ride.
– I’m mid 40’s a lot of women my age who have had children have done most of the child rearing and housework whilst also doing full or part time jobs. Now the child rearing may be by choice but no one wants to do the housework. At my age there are a lot more options, personally I stayed child free got a good job & share the house work 50/50 so have plenty of time for hobbies. For my age I have made non typical choices.
Yep and I at least am talking about the future, I really had no illusions of dragging my 83yr old mum down Dyfi or Rev's... though we did climb Ingleborough last week.
I think to a large extent you were possibly ahead of the times... and the choices you had to be an exception for are now open to more or less all.
– I see people in their 20’s with children sharing both child raising and housework much more evenly, so now so men and women have much more equal free time. With widely available contraception raising children can be planned & chosen if wanted but it is becoming more accepted that you may choose not to.
– Also 1 week a month many women don’t want to be out for several hours away from a bathroom.
I'll skip the last point ... but yep I agree and the life choices today are completely different to the 1950's.
Women as much as men have all this historical baggage that their parents and grandparents pass down as to what is women’s & men’s work and what are potential hobbies.
Completely agree... but we don't need to carry that baggage round.
I’ve had plenty of comments from both women and men as to why I’d want to do the hobbies and career I’ve chosen.
As society changes we’ll see more how much of these choices are to do with nature and how much to do with how we have been raised and other societal pressures. Till then what’s the harm in showing girls that riding bikes could be for them and is fun. At least then its seen as an option to consider along with everything else. They may then choose to do something completely different just like anyone should be able to.
Absolutely non... the other part of this though is not everyone will want to make your choices and that's OK too. (I'm not implying you said otherwise .. it's just an addition)
Some women actually want the massive SUV to drop the sprogs at school, to have no need to work and a partner that is happy to pay.
If I say I don’t like Marion Keys because I read the first few pages of one and it just doesn’t appeal to me that is accepted without question. But if a woman says it she is assumed to just need some mansplaining to help her see the error of her ways set her on the right track.
and
Rather than telling women to change, how about setting an example and you start doing the stuff that doesn’t really appeal to you?
Shows you didn't understand my point, so I'll try to be clearer.
Your first example, you read something by her, you tried it, and it didn't appeal to you (language use, content, storyline etc etc). Fine, no issue. What if you hadn't read it and when asked if you would, said it doesn't appeal to me, the question now is why doesn't it appeal because you haven't tried it? If a woman said she'd read it and it didnt appeal, the reply would be exactly the same. So for the MTB question this started on, why doesn't MTB appeal to more women (who haven't tried it), and can the industry do something to change that to see if uptake increases?
The second point, is completely irrelevant. I didn't say change women, or make them do something that doesn't appeal to them, much like I wouldn't make men do something that doesn't appeal to them. I asked why it didn't appeal to them, as perhaps this is something that we could do something about.
Vickypea
Late to the thread, but I’ve been riding a bike since I was 4 in the 1970s. I rode all sorts of unsuitable bikes in the woods- including skinny tyred road bikes, shopping bikes with small wheels and a basket! My mum would tell me off for what she saw as wantonly wrecking my bikes, but I ignored her. I certainly wasn’t the only girl riding bikes. All the kids in my street virtually lived on bikes.
When BMXs came out, I really wanted one but my mum said they were for boys. If only mountain bikes had been a thing when I was a kid!
Other than being a bloke and a couple of years older almost exactly the same ..right up to the point of skateboards, BMX and then motorbikes when my mum said "you'll kill yourself"
My younger brother (must be about your age) however got a skateboard, BMX, moped ... but he spent (and still does) a lot less of his childhood up to that point in A&E...
either being largely ignored or the butt of condescending remarks
OOB stole the first part ... the second part of being ignored is perhaps people answering for you... which is IMHO very condescending...
“ After reading some of this I’m trying to decide if being white, male, open minded and trying to bring up two wee boys i’m part of the problem or part of the solution.”
You and every other parent, regardless their background is a big part of the solution. My elder daughter (aged 8) gets told by boys at school that girls can’t play football, which upsets her, because she can. Where do they get that ridiculous idea from?
They haven’t told her that girls can’t ride bikes or go MTBing but she is better at it than the rest of her year.
One of her friends is the biggest boy in the year but he likes many stereotypically girly things as well as plenty of stereotypical boy stuff - but he’s been bullied by a little girl who goes to an evangelical church because he sometimes likes to wear pink clothes and leggings and she says boys shouldn’t do that.
Anyone who deals with children has a duty to not repeat the mistakes of past generations and instead to enable children to become the adults they want to be, not the adults that society forces them to be.
Also, if you don’t have children or your children are older, go and look at the kids clothes in any of the supermarkets. FFS.
crazyjenkins
Unfortunately OOB and Steve have both fell into the trap that should have been obvious from page 1, and that you both have even mentioned yourselves! Yes, there are other reasons females may not ride bikes, but the fact the there are others surely suggests that the societal reasons are still valid. The horse riding example has also derailed the thread slightly (cost).
Some of the points you both make (about choice and happiness) are spot on and cant be argued. However something you both seem to be missing, that has been pointed out several times, is that just maybe females don’t try cycling because
it just doesn’t appeal to me
Isn’t actually the reason, the reason would be what has been seen/heard whatever to make them think it doesnt.
or it might not be ... to take an extreme example (because it makes the point).
Why has Rachel never done hardline?
the reason she gives or because of social conditioning by men? (not the current reason which is obviously female specific)
I'll take a guess that if she had been told she couldn't do it because she's a woman she'd have actually had a go.
So Hardline is Hardline ... and at the extremes (a good way to test hypotheses if you watch Physics Girl on YT) but there is nothing wrong with a woman (or man) saying I just don't fancy it or I don't want to get badly injured, I don't like the heat/cold etc..
I don't want to do hardline because I'd die...
I also liked Steve’s instrument example up there with the Oboe and Flute. But has been said, if up until that point of being able to choose to try it, if they want to, those males and females had seen ONLY males playing the Oboe and Females playing the Flute then chances are the split would be exactly as suggested.
The thing is why would it matter?
If we swap Oboe for Cello would it matter if Jacqueline du Pre had chosen flute or violin so long as she had the choice of learning an instrument?
Perhaps... and I mean perhaps had she chosen violin we may have been robbed of one of the greatest Cellists ever .. but odds on had she heard a violin and instead been as passionate abpout that she'd doubtless have been an exceptional violinist...
My point really is so long as people find something they enjoy does it matter?
That I was robbed of being a ski-jumper by an accident of geography... is it a big deal?
I'd probably be an average ski-jumper like I'm an average MTBer...
+1 agree with jag1. Great post imo
I don’t believe there is some big conspiracy by men to stop women cycling
And I don’t think that anyone else here does (at least I’ve not read anything to convince me otherwise). Excepting, of course, the legions of STW menifeminazi strawmen
with whom Certain Dominant Voices Here & Elsewhere do battle with surprising temerity. 🤣
but there is nothing wrong with a woman (or man) saying I just don’t fancy it or I don’t want to get badly injured, I don’t like the heat/cold etc..
I don’t want to do hardline because I’d die…
Exactly Steve. I'd argue these are reasons, (and, with my skillz, very good ones!) but they actually are reasons. And there is nothing wrong with that. Whereas IMO "it doesn't appeal to me" isn't, in itself, a reason, but a symptom of what the reasons are. Like you said up there (I believe you said it, apologies if not) sewing doesn't appeal to you, the reason being it feels like a chore. What's being said though, is there is a possibility that it doesn't appeal to some men because its subliminally seen as a female activity. Like possibly, MTB is seen as a male activity. Maybe it isn't the only/biggest reason, but is it one easily changed to maybe help it to appeal to more females?
My point really is so long as people find something they enjoy does it matter?
If they enjoy it, no absolutely not. However, if there is even the chance there is a message/signal/conditioning whether intentional or not, that you cant/shouldn't do/try this because of your gender, surely there should be people trying to change that message....
That I was robbed of being a ski-jumper by an accident of geography… is it a big deal?
This isn't completely accurate though. This is a slightly more difficult thing to quantify because you being born and growing up somewhere this isn't readily available is a very hard thing to change, and IMO not comparable.
Ah, I see someone mentioned skirts and bikes..... Let me tell you this. Last year I was struggling up a climb at a perfectly respectable fat, knackered, old man speed. When I was casually overtaken by a lady on an e-bike hybrid thing wearing pumps, a cardy and a skirt!
Can you imagine how utterly emasculated that me feel........? It may take me years to get over that.
So, be careful what you wish for I say!.......... 😉
So, be careful what you wish for I say!…
ebikes?