[Closed] The road disk debacle continues - banned from French Sportives

Discs aren't just about power.

Better brakes allow better control.

I know - I'll grow the market for pure racing machines by making them less like pure racing machines!

Seems like relaxed geometry, stronger bikes and disc brakes are a different market to a pure road race bike.

FWIW I own more road / track / time trial bikes than I do MTBs... I would never ride a proper off road bike without decent suspension forks and decent hydraulic discs. It would never cross my mind that I need discs on a road bike. I own two time trial bikes that the UCI would not allow me to compete on because the designers 'progressed' the design of the bike in a way which the UCI has now determined was unacceptable. Where is the 'bring back lo pros' progress campaign? Or is it simply that the pro discers on here are not even vaguely interested in progress, they simply love discs because off road they are best, therefore make the leap that this makes discs best for the peloton.

CaptainFlashheart - when did you last hear a pro rider complaining that their brakes did not have enough power or were not good enough in any way? How do better brakes make racing better or safer, or ideally both?

when did you last hear a pro rider complaining that their brakes did not have enough power or were not good enough in any way? How do better brakes make racing better or safer, or ideally both?

I've seen plenty miss corners and been out braked in races before eating walls and ditches.

Luckily we never misjudge corners on our disc equipped bikes 😆

mikewsmith - google risk compensation. I genuinely cannot see how discs would make any difference other than allowing later braking on descents, with the later braking compensating for any safety benefit of better brakes leaving the riders equal safe / unsafe as they were before.

The only real difference would be that the brakes would come on 20m from the corner instead of 25m.

I just don't see how that benefits riders or spectators.

I just don't see how that benefits riders or spectators.

Quite simply if you were never allowed chocolate would you like some chocolate?

Well presumably it would make the riders faster down hill which is the idea behind racing. Going faster, No?
I don't recall pro riders complaining that their tyres were too skinny, but it appears they were. So now we have pros riding tyres which are more comfortable with a bigger contact patch and which are faster than before, all this flying in the face of years of professional received wisdom.

So now we have pros riding tyres which are [s]more comfortable with a bigger contact patch and which are[/s] faster than before, all this flying in the face of years of professional received wisdom.

Hmm so pro's are willing to rapidly adopt change to previously perceived wisdom and tradition... yet don't seem to want disc brakes. What could be going on?! 🙂

Hmm so pro's are willing to rapidly adopt change to previously perceived wisdom and tradition... yet don't seem to want disc brakes. What could be going on?!

Disc brakes and roadies is a bit like mini roundabouts used to be in Cumbria, they just stopped and pointed

Who cares what the pros ride...

A great many people - that's kind of how sponsorship works. See the pros using it this year, buy it in the shops next year.

Worked wonders for the factory built wheel market when Mavic gave a few sets of Heliums (and later on, Ksyriums) to the pros. It's where Di2 (and more crucially, the acceptance of Di2) has come from.

It's even how the industry has managed to con slightly overweight middle aged men that aero is everything.

It's even how the industry has managed to con slightly overweight middle aged men that aero is everything.

Physics a con?

[img] [/img]

some pro stuff definitely drives popular demand - carbon bikes, aero bikes, aero road helmets are coming in.

but some stuff is not relevant to (most) regular riders - tubs, std. gearing, big deep wheels (for road riding).

and some stuff is in the grey zone (some roadies have it but it's still niche) - Di2, carbon rims, lightweight tyres.

If the pro peloton stays with rim brakes then it may see bike design split into two camps - 'old-school' rim bikes, and the disc-ready designs.

I think it's a interesting future when the bike in your garage is better than Froome's 8)

imnotverygood - Member

I don't recall pro riders complaining that their tyres were too skinny, but it appears they were. So now we have pros riding tyres which are more comfortable with a bigger contact patch and which are faster than before, all this flying in the face of years of professional received wisdom.

And very relevant, since for so long if you fitted wider tyres to your bike as a civilian, you'd have True Cyclists take the piss and assume you're incompetent.

some pro stuff definitely drives popular demand - carbon bikes, aero bikes, aero road helmets are coming in.

I think it's Strava driving that stuff into the non-racer market!

And very relevant, since for so long if you fitted wider tyres to your bike as a civilian, you'd have True Cyclists take the piss and assume you're incompetent.

To be fair, tyre technology has advanced hugely in recent times. If you wanted a soft supple race tyre in days gone by narrow tubs were your only choice. Fat clinchers were heavy, hard and a crap ride. Now you can get some proper decent racer rubber on fat open tubular clinchers.

Interesting that Ryder Hesjedal is no fan, since like us all he started on mtbs, so is more than familiar with a disc brake.

Here is a question, for those of you who have raced on the road, how often have you actually braked on a downhill? I'm genuinely struggling to remember a time I ever did.

imnotverygood

"Well presumably it would make the riders faster down hill which is the idea behind racing. Going faster, No?"

I think the idea behind pro racing is to have an entertaining sport which makes money for all concerned by virtue of the fact people wish to watch it, and obviously part of what makes it entertaining is that people are trying to go as fast as possible within the rules.

Are you campaigning against UCIs minimum weight rules? If not why not?

Should riders be able to run 24" front wheels to get closer to the guy in front to get more aero benefits? If not why not?

Electric motors are the next big thing in cycling. Imagine if every rider had an extra 500W of power due to an identical motor to every other rider. The best rider would still win but everything would be faster better and newer? Do you agree that motors need introducing to pro cycling?

I'm not sure any of your points make any sense. What is your point chipkorea?

What about 5lb bikes and 24" front wheels and insane carbon frames? They are all progress - do you think the UCI is wrong to ban them?

I think the UCI is wrong to ban them, if they can be shown to be safe (i.e. strong enough). Particularly with half arsed aero permitted (i.e. as long as it kind of looks traditional/doesn't use particular geometry/as long as you pretend the aero fairing is a strengthening gusset) where, with the current cost of manufacturing carbon frames far more reasonable, we could have proper (funny looking) aero frames made.

[Quote="reggiegasket"]I think it's a interesting future when the bike in your garage is better than Froome's
Future? Already been and gone.
Thanks to the UCI you've been able to have a better bike than the pros (aero, weight and possibly fit) for probably a decade.
[quote="dragon"]how often have you actually braked on a downhill?probably every race I've ever done. Just to scrub of a bit of speed. And much of that was when brakes really were shit.

[quote="mikewsmith"]Disc brakes and roadies is a bit like mini roundabouts used to be in Cumbria, they just stopped and pointedWe need to start distinguishing between "Roadies" and "Pro Roadies" who (on the whole) have somewhat different requirements for some parts of their equipment.

Might also need to break "roadies" down into those who race and those who don't.

I think it's a interesting future when the bike in your garage is better than Froome's

Thing is, it's a sport, it needs rules governing this sort of thing. And those rules can be hard to change, especially when there are so many conflicting interests ([url= http://inrng.com/2016/04/the-disk-brake-fiasco/ ]this article[/url] is a good read.) Someone's always going to complain that a rule change would give someone an advantage or take away their competitiveness (and re discs, let's not forget that Campag have only just announced their prototype system!) So often you end up with the status quo as deciding what the new rule should be is just too complicated.

Look at the weight limit thing. I think almost everyone is agreed that it's time for a change. But one of the big blockers is deciding what to change it to (a good article on that [url= http://inrng.com/2015/12/6-8-kilo-rule-change/ ]here[/url].)

We need to start distinguishing between "Roadies" and "Pro Roadies" who (on the whole) have somewhat different requirements for some parts of their equipment.
Might also need to break "roadies" down into those who race and those who don't.

I think most of the big mainstream manufacturers have already done that and judging by what the LBS is selling so too have much of the bike buying public.

Seems to work well for the MTB market too. For years companies sponsored XC and DH teams with their race bikes, and used the marketing to sell trail bikes to the non racing public.

[quote="mrblobby"]I think most of the big mainstream manufacturers have already done that and judging by what the LBS is selling so too have much of the bike buying public.
Manufacturers have to a degree, "experts" on forums (and many others) haven't.

Manufacturers have to a degree, "experts" on forums (and many others) haven't.

🙂

Here is a question, for those of you who have raced on the road, how often have you actually braked on a downhill? I'm genuinely struggling to remember a time I ever did.

Not often, although most races are not really hilly. Milland Hill circuit in Surrey has some impressive donwhill sections and speed modulation is needed in the bunch. But scrubbing off speed for hairpins, not a chance!

There is no doubt in my mind that alloy rims and Dura Ace and Ultegra calipers provide all the braking power and modulation I need in all conditions. The Giant aero SLR brakes and carbon rims on my race bike are demonstrably not as good at either. Are they good enough, for me and my races? Most definitely.

In fact the only complaint I have is that on the rough Surrey lanes, the barrel adjusters have a habit of tightening with vibration! Over 100 km, that has the effect of making the brakes rub and cost be a bunch finish in one race (not Saturday though).

@ghostlymachine,
Well I think it's safe to say that sums it up perfectly,

Well said.

speed modulation is needed in the bunch. But scrubbing off speed for hairpins, not a chance!

Exactly what I was thinking. I remember racing over Brill hill in Bucks and hitting nearly 50 mph through the S section and never touched my brakes once, as the more speed you carry for 'free' the better off you are. Cycling is all about conservation of momentum and carving clean lines.

interesting readin the differing views despite half of them I reckon to be complete bobbins however

I have to say that I think a lot of this negative reaction is down to fear of change. It is extremely analogous to the way some people reacted to the innovation of MTB suspension nearly 25 years ago and the really recent 650b introduction.

reggiegasket - my point is that if you are arguing that disc brakes should be allowed in the pro peloton cos it is progress then you have to be pro all progress (ie funny shaped bikes, no minimum weights, funny sized wheels etc etc).

If, however, you are not of the opinion that progress is everything and 'anything goes' then you have to justify specific changes like discs, for example by showing how they benefit the riders or the spectators, whilst not introducing unnecessary risk.

I do not see how they will make racing better for riders or spectators, they are a 'solution' to a problem that does not exist (no pros are moaning that calipers are shit or unsafe), and there are safety concerns.

philjunior - would funny shaped aero bikes make the racing better to watch or compete in? Would they detract from the main thing "which bloke is fastest on a road bike"?

I don't know how appropriate the current weight limit is, but I am damn sure that a marginal amont of unnecessary weight on the bike does not spoil anyones enjoyment of the sport, whereas manufacturers shaving every bit of weight they could would almost certainly result in increased occurences of catatrohic failure of parts (potentially at 70kph off a hill resulting in a fatality). Marginally reducing the weight limit might be a perfectly sensible thing to do, but trying to constantly keep it as low as possible is unnecessary and potentially dangerous.

I do not see how they will make racing better for riders or spectators, they are a 'solution' to a problem that does not exist (no pros are moaning that calipers are shit or unsafe), and there are safety concerns.

I do not see how they will make racing better for riders or spectators, they are a 'solution' to a problem that does not exist (no pros are moaning that calipers are shit or unsafe), and there are safety concerns.

Racers probably thought it was bad, dunno.

Not bad, just unnecessary. For FS on XC race bikes, it's taken a combination of evolution in courses (large increase in gnarr) and technology (light weight short travel frames, good platforms, lockouts, etc.) for it to be adopted.

imnotverygood

"We are arguing that brakes which perform better are a safety improvement, by giving more power & modulation, and enable racers to ride to their maximum downhill by using the performance advantage that better brakes give. The problem is, there appear to be a load of people who don't seem to want to put this to the test."

Have you heard of risk compensation and do you really believe that discs will make road racing safer (putting aside the risk of discs causing harm in crashes for one second)? I don't - I don't think discs will stop pile ups in the peloton because they are down to the fact that there is nothing you can do at 50 kph when you are 6 inches behind the bloke in front - all they will do is allow pros to brake slightly later down hlls, meaning that the riders end up just as safe or unsafe as they were when the brakes were marginally less goo. Crashes happen because when racing riders will always push whatever brakes they have to the limit and occasionally mis-judge that limit, not because the brakes aren't good enough.

Do you think that the marginal increase in downhill speed would make it a better spectator sport?

And another thing... presumably 29" wheels are allowed in XC is because there is no reason not to have them (ie no reason to suspect that there is a risk to riders because they have bigger wheels, as opposed to discs where there is a reason to suspect that discs [i]might [/i]cause unnecessary harm in a peloton pile up).

I have no problem with 29" wheels in XC.... but do they make XC more exciting than if everyone was forced to ride 26" wheels? I'd argue that the sport is no better for 29" wheels, and if anything the only changes are that everyone goes a bit faster and the people with the best technique have less of an advantage on the techie stuff because the big wheels make rolling over things easier for everyone.

The better the brakes the bigger the margin for error.

The better the brakes the bigger the margin for error.

If you're racing and you leave a margin for error then half a dozen people will ride into that margin 🙂

The better the brakes the bigger the margin for error.
If you're racing and you leave a margin for error then half a dozen people will ride into that margin

Mike, why are the Pro's so reticent to embrace this new technology then?

I know they shunned helmets at the beginning and that no one likes change but why the increased negativity and bad press?

I still think it goes against the grain of what makes a great looking road bike, they introduced disks then tweaked the axles, basically changed the road bike to more of a CX bike, so I can see why some don't like it, obvs there's those on here that don't don't like Aesthetics, tradition and the word Bidon, constantly looking for the next best thing,
But for me I like calliopes, traditional ones, but that's just me, others have embraced this new addition to road racing with open arms. It's easy when your job isn't reliant upon how fast a wheel can be changed I suppose.

Err don't these roadies ride on the...road...which is full of...cars and buses and other motorised vehicles? Faced with that, I would want the finest brakes known to humanity.

Sod aesthetics!

dies ride on the...road...which is full of...cars and buses and other motorised vehicles? Faced with that, I would want the finest brakes known to humanity.

the threads about pro riders racing on closed roads in a peloton !!

Yes you are right, rim brakes are the main or probably the ONLY contributing factor to Road Bike Deaths, I should have known because my own rim brakes very nearly killed me the other day, I'd best get out and purchase a better bike with bolt through hubs and some disk brakes, because every one knows if you aren't running disks then you will die.

Well this should send the internet into meltdown...

[img] [/img]

A pro, [s]riding[/s] holding a bike, with discs. OMFG!

ooOOoo
Meanwhile, this trial that's been halted because contrary to what you think Pro riders actually want to go faster not slower, it's all well and good stopping on 6 pence and scrubbing the speed off for corners but proper riders don't rely on brakes to stay upright they rely on skill and experience, yes sometimes they overshoot the corners so what, that's racing, imagine how shit racing motor cars or super bikes would be without the spills,

Anyway, stay safe out there with the busses and gnarmac,

the threads about pro riders racing on closed roads in a peloton !!

Ah wow sportive actually means a closed race over there...I'm sorry I'm used to the british knock-off description. Big steep roads though.

Anyway I've been riding the road with wide slick tyres and disc brakes for many years. So what do I know.

I bet all the roadies who were laughing when the MTB world introduced 650b aren't finding it so funny now. Surely the main drive is that road bikes are pretty much at the limit of current technology so it's getting harder to persuade Joe public to drop a few grand on something that is pretty much the same as what they've currently got.

Except the marginal benefits of 650b (for the average rider) are far lower than the benefits of predictable, reliable braking for the average roadie who has to mix it with traffic. It's only certain special cases who perceive a risk which seems like it's yet to be demonstrated in real life. In the mean time the manufacturers will steadily move away from ye olde brake systeme until the UCI are the only proponents of non disk braking.