[Closed] The price of being a cheating, bullying liar? $10,000,000 (so far)

Some top performers are like LA or senna but many are not - I think its a little unfair to link Senna with LA tbh but i see the gist.
Its not essential to have that sort of mentality to be the best but you do have to be competitive to win.
For Senna and Schumacher you can have Vettel and hamilton.
For a LA you can have Chris Hoy
I am not sure where say Sir Steve Redgrave would feature as he seems a decent bloke
Not everyone winner has a win at any [ cheating basically] costs attitude.

For Senna and Schumacher you can have Vettel and hamilton.

Annnnd which group is greater, Senna and Schumi or Vettel/Hamilton? IMO the latter two will never, ever achieve the heights that the former two did.

And just because they seem nice doesn't mean to say you know what is actually going on behind the scenes. I bet the only thing they give a shit about is winning, Hamilton just has a greater fear of being caught than Senna or Schumi did, so is less likely to take obvious risks.

The $10 million is nothing to do with his winnings.

hora - Member
Daffy your taking that out of context.

I'm really not; you're implying that he should be systematically punished, punished so much in fact, that should he
feel that there is no "out", no light at he end of the tunnel, that when he "killed himself" that it would be an almost justifiable punishment; that he sowed the seeds and he's only now reaping the whirlwind. But that whirlwind is being fanned by yours and others hatred of the man and what he did.

That's not justice.

Here's the exchange

"will the media not be happy until he's killed himself"

My reply

If he killed himself whose fault is that?

How is that implying that he should be systematically punished?

How is the media hounding him? They are reporting current situation/fact on him

So don't imply malace.

you only want him to be given a break because you love him.

the arguments are all constructed [i]after[/i] the emotional tie you have to him. People pick and choose evidence to suit the position they want to take. But the position you take is built on what he represents to you, by being a great winner (and then dumping on you). If he's still a great winner to you then you'll want him to remain that way (and you deflect the evidence). If he's dumped you (as he has) then you'll want him to get fat and marry a minger.

i agree entirely with everything northwind said.....

Your statement implied that he was receiving JUST punishment, and that whatever the result, he brought it on himself..

I completely disagree, He should be allowed to compete once a two year ban has been served.

Not everyone winner has a win at any [ cheating basically] costs attitude.

Well.. over a certain critical mass in a particular sport then I think that's not true. If you can only win by doping, then by definition all the winners are dopers who are prepared to cheat.

I have no emotional attachment to LA, I didn't even start watching the Tour until 2007. I watched Vinokourov, crash and then, bandaged like a mummy, storm the next day's climb. It was amazing, it was inspiring, it was apparently drug fuelled...but still, it was pharmaceutically amazing. Vinokourov was banned for two years and then back again. LA should have the same opportunity.

I believe Vinokourov may have then cheated again, but we'll gloss over that.

tpbiker - Member
i agree entirely with everything northwind said.....

Me too.

Trying to look from a non emotional standpoint here.

A lot of people defended Lance and feel very let down, they had invested emotion into his story and believed that it could be true. They now feel bitter and let down.

He is high profile and what he did was organised and probably calculated. He was part of a drug cheating programme that has gone right through cycling.

Here is the other side.
The USADA went on a Lance at all costs mission, they allowed others who were taking and profiting from the drugs (not all had their arms twisted) to confess and take bans after they had left the sport. They seem to be keeping their pay cheques.
For Trek/US Postal etc. to claim it was a massive shock to see the team was doping is a bigger lie. What did they do to ensure that something that was prevalent across an entire sport was not going on in their team.

Cycling had a drug problem, or as it can also be put Drugs had a Cycling problem. Going after 1 man grabs headlines but allows others to sleep easy at night.

Lance is his own worst enemy in this as he loves to be on TV and in the middle of it all. Perhaps the biggest punishment would be to stop talking about him.

I agree with northwind too actually but why should people sue him to regain their money?

If you break the law and you get caught you lose what you have gained from it. His wealth has been built up and defended against people who spoke out against him. There are more people after hime because he stolen from more people. Its irrelevant what has happened to other riders if no one wants to sue them thats how civil law works no?

No Daffy. You are trying to make someone agree with what you read into it. Abit control freakish and wrong.

I applaud USADA. Cheats were caught and banned before and since. Floyd Landis dragged everyone through court in the vain hope he'd keep his Tour win etc didn't he.

North wind. One flaw in your thinking on tbis. Lance entered the contract that the performance bonus (of this lawsuit) had one stipulation- that he didn't cheat otherwise would forfeit etc.

So its not going after one competitor. Its contractual breach isnt it.

The USADA claim they gave him the chance to fess up and get a lighter ban. Truth? We don't know.

I'm a little sad it was the US authorities that blew it all open in the end and not anyone with international authority. The UCI has gotten away with a lot and was massively culpable.

Another thing, maybe speaking to Northwind's point, is that while the SCA thing is all on him (his bonuses) the dept of justice action is regarding sponsorship of the team is is not? So who's on the hook there? That must go further than LA personally?

Tom_W1987

Actually no .. Senna was a nice guy out of his car

One of my family worked for him in Europe.

Thing you have to remember, Senna was putting life at risk everytime he raced, so when something wasn't perfect (caused by others)that dedication was in-effect thrown away for that race or season.

Thing you have to remember, Senna was putting life at risk everytime he raced, so when something wasn't perfect (caused by others)that dedication was in-effect thrown away for that race or season

He was an arse that should technically have had his racing license revoked, an entertaining arse though.

Actually samunkim may have solved it. Away from the competitive sport they were perfectly normal and pleasant individuals. I dont think you can say that about LA and the way he destroyed folks lives [ some seriously underhand and unpleasant ways] to defend his reputation is hard to defend.

How can you compare Senna to this situation?

He put others lives at risk? What first corner incidents that also involved another who'd turn in/would slam the door shut/etc etc?

I wouldn't even bring him into a discussion. He wasn't a bully, from my mind he didn't cheat. He was bloody driven though wasn't he.

TBH when Nico Rosberg turned into Lewis's rear tyre- I'd say that was a spur of the moment racing decision that was wrong- not cheating. Yet it was blown out of all proportion.

Actually samunkim may have solved it. Away from the competitive sport they were perfectly normal and pleasant individuals.

Give the guy a break, have yiu never done something yiu regretted

The only thing Lance regrets is getting caught.

I completely disagree, He should be allowed to compete once a two year ban has been served.

Do you think the punishments for breaking the speed limit by 1mph and 50mph should be the same?

Do you think the punishments for breaking the speed limit by 1mph and 50mph should be the same?

Seems to be for the rest of cycling

Is it? The Armstrong case is without precedent, and he was punished in accordance with the existing criteria.

Without precedent of being caught, there has been serious team organised doping across pro cycling that let people off with slapped wrists

Without precedent of being caught, there has been serious team organised doping across pro cycling that let people off with slapped wrists

That has certainly happened in the past, and most people agree it was wrong to do so.

Great summary Northwind and it I think it gets to the crux of the argument. The man is a shitehawk and his shitehawkery is his greatest crime and failing as human being, but USADA et al cannot and have not punished him for being a shitehawk.

I do remind friends and colleagues that it is not so much that Armstrong doped, but that he was the kingpin of a sophisticated international drugs trafficking cartel. That crime caries a little more weight than someone who just doped or prepared themselves "professionally". LA could have co-operated with USADA and who knows what his sanction may have been had he done so too.

Hopefully the courts will be the right place to provide justice for LA's shitehawkery. Fraud, libel, slander, blacklisting and bullying are not doping violations or cheating actons to win a bike race at all costs. They are the crimes of a sociopathic shitehawk and the perpetrator must face these charges in court.

He should be allowed to compete once a two year ban has been served.

The thing is, Lance systematically cheated for years- he won many titles and races by cheating (clean people lost the opportunity to stand on the podium, earn more sponsorship money etc). I don't think he got away with it without help but the fact remains the punishment should fit the crime. Stripping him of 7 titles. That was right. The person(s) proven not to have cheated then got those spots where possible. Which shows there is some in the Pelaton who raced at the time clean.

As I said- he got all he deserved. No ones hounded him.

Looking back- remembering the pic of him sat at home under the 7 framed title jerseys of the Tour with the words 'just chillin with my titles' (or whatever) - it just shows his rank arrogance.

Not really sure what your point is mike. I dont know the Yorkshire ripper either or anyone convicted of murdering prostitutes. Am I not allowed to have an opinion on that ?

I dont think many folk would like to defend some of the things he did.

FWIW I have been following road cycling since before the internet.

Its fair to say others did as much as he did [ perhaps not to influence an entire team /operation] and got far lesser punishments.
Has he been unfairly punished. I think he has been punished as a deterrent to others and as an example.
I tend to think a lifetime ban is excessive but how could you ever believe he was competing clean. Even now he says he would do it all over again.

hora - Member

Looking back- remembering the pic of him sat at home under the 7 framed title jerseys of the Tour with the words 'just chillin with my titles' (or whatever) - it just shows his rank arrogance.

[IMG] [/IMG]

JY - Actually samunkim may have solved it. Away from the competitive sport they were perfectly normal and pleasant individuals. I dont think you can say that about LA and the way he destroyed folks lives [ some seriously underhand and unpleasant ways] to defend his reputation is hard to defend.

Not really sure what your point is mike. I dont know the Yorkshire ripper either or anyone convicted of murdering prostitutes. Am I not allowed to have an opinion on that ?

You don't know LA, you don't know drug cheats, you don't know ruthless people who don't cheat. You read the press, you read what the USADA PR machine told you, you read what people what you to think... there are f'wits in the world he is one of them but the focus in LA is clever as it forgets what the rest of the pro cycling world has been up to

Everyone else may have been taking drugs, but Lance always won - ergo, Lance was the best at taking drugs.

Simply, the pursuit of Lance is forgetting the rest of the guilty.

you read what the USADA PR machine told you

You do know what their remit is don't you? Have a read up on them.

but the focus in LA is clever as it forgets what the rest of the pro cycling world has been up to

Catching cheats from what I've heard.

Simply, the pursuit of Lance is forgetting the rest of the guilty.

It's forgetting the cyclists who didn't win the yellow jersey. If Lance hadn't been a champ, he wouldn't be worth pursuing.

Really? It was the scope of his legal/defence etc that they had to. Again Floyd Landis dragged everything through the courts to try and get away with his positive.

Have a scroll down and look through lots on here for people caught who ARENT readily famous:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling#2011

[img] [/img]SSo we are pusuing all of these guys then?
It's not all about lance, it's a clever distraction to avoid more difficult issues such as USP supported doping...

Thats ****ing sad that he wasn't awarded the yellow jersey. If Lance had raced clean the person robbed would be the Tour winner. How many $100,000's has Joseba lost because of that 'hounded' cheat who should be let off (apparently).

So we are pusuing all of these guys then?

Yes. As your graph shows, they have been penalised for doping.

I disagree with your point as it is not a reasonable position to say that we cannot have an opinion on him [ or anyone else] just because we have not met them. FWIW it would apply to you as well as you have not met him so we can discount your view.
I am fairly sure my opinion is my own and you can read my views on LA pre USADA being involved as there are threads on here. Anyone who seriously followed the sport knew what was going on at the time. It was obvious.
I have agreed with you on the second point but LA got worse as he was the head of the snake and at no point , even after the report, did he admit it or help the investigation. Those who show the least remorse get the worst punishment. Even now he has refused to come clean unless he gets an amnesty and he still denies 2009-10 doping.

You are correct that plenty of cheats got no punishment and are still involved in the sport and I agree LA got an exceptional punishment ; personally, I think he earned it but yes we should turn our attention to other targets

Thinking of the likes of Joseba Beloki and has hinted in this topic- in other sports I wonder how much prestige and money racing drivers lost out on in the Schumacher years. Hill lost one additional crown and Senna should have had a fourth. This isn't due to doping but performance enhancements or plain old steering-wheel thuggery.

I disagree with your point as it is not a reasonable position to say that we cannot have an opinion on him [ or anyone else] just because we have not met them. FWIW it would apply to you as well as you have not met him so we can discount your view.

When a criminal gang is prosecuted, I thought it was fairly normal for the ringleader to be punished the most severely.

The point being you don't actually know

He was a public figure and he showed his personality via his actions on and off the bike as did le mond and Boardman and Brad and all the others.
Off the bike he was different from most other winners in that he remained as ruthless as on the bike and some of the insults were very very low blows indeed.

His treatment* of Simeone in an actual race was shameful as well.
I cannot think of anyone else doing a comparable act.

* the peleton supported him and he ended up being spat at by others as well so your point is also true about how , some, ignore everything else

It was not all LA faults and you are on the ball with that point but he =was the gang master or leader so he got the worst treatment.

and the bosses who looked the other way? and the governing body who covered it up, and the testers who covered it up?

In the end a truth and reconciliation is more the way to go, get them out in the open and expose those who still don't want to talk