My ongoing search for a longer travel full suss has led me to start looking at e-bikes as there are some decent looking deals about. I was aware of some of the motors like Bosch, Shimano and the Amflow one but checking specs there seems to be more options than I realised so which are the recommended models, which should be ignored and which are worth a go if the price is right?
I know Shimano have a bad reputation but is that all of them or certain models? Oh, and what's regarded as full fat compared to the lower power bikes? What figure easily distinguishes between the two when skimming spec?
Probably already discussed to death but up until now I wasn't planning on buying an e-bike anytime soon so I've not paid much attention. My intention was to buy a normal bike now then switch to electric when I retire in 4 years but it's becoming obvious that electric is taking over the higher end of full suss so I don't fancy ending up with another 650b in the situation.
My intention was to buy a normal bike now then switch to electric when I retire in 4 years
I think there's something to be said for sticking to that plan. E-bike tech seems to be moving very fast atm, and the DJI stuff appears to have shaken up the whole area. It might be worth waiting a while to see how things develop.
I’ve not taken a ton of notice because I bought my ebike almost 7 years ago and it still works great, but 80Nm torque and up are the full-power bikes, with batteries from 500Whr to 800Whr.
I see quite a few posts from people holding out for newer models etc because they think the tech is rapidly advancing but it really isn’t - there are some small leaps like from DJI but it’s nothing game-changing.
If you can afford an ebike they’re great. If you can keep riding a normal bike too then the ebike can help out when you’re tired or short of time or want to get a lot of laps in on steep stuff etc, and the normal bike will keep you stronger in terms of max power output.
The Brose motor in my Levo suffered a slipping drive belt just outside the warranty but it was replaced free of charge within 48 hours. I’ve liked buying from my LBS with the ebike more than other bikes - it’s nice to have the support, like when I mulleted it with a new smaller rear wheel and then popped in and they adjusted the speed cut-out to match, took them a few minutes, no charge.
There seem to be quite a lot of companies doing motor etc repairs and refurbs and not charging that much for them - I’d check if people do repairs on any motor I was getting if I wanted to keep the bike a long time.
I recently realised that other than my Brompton I’ve owned my Levo for longer than any other bike I’ve had!
Ideally for longevity you want a motor that is fully rebuildable, and really a battery too. I don't think you'll have much luck with re-cellable batteries though. Bosch and Brose are servicable AFAIK. Shimano less so. Avinox, I have no idea. One plus of the Avinox is the recharging time. It is rapid - you could blast on high power all morning, stop for lunch and nearly fully recharge in an hour or so, then blast off for the afternoon.
I have a Gen 3 Levo and it is a brilliant bike. I also had a Gen 1 Levo. I have had a few motors... All replaced under warranty. A good LBS is very important.
You hear good and bad about Brose motors (Specialized), but I've had 6 years in all conditions out of my Gen 1 Kenevo. Had a motor refurb as a precaution for around £300 by the bearing guys
Still have the Kenevo, but now on a Gen 3 Levo which seems mostly fine but does get a bit noisy when climbing, so there may be something brewing.
I deristrict my bikes, so if it goes and it isn't under warranty I'll just send it off for a recondition
For motors its best to stay away from Shimano purely because at the moment no one can really repair them, I think its something to do with Shimano not selling replacement parts so 3rd party repairs cant fix them
Bosch & Brose are repairable (not sure about other brands) I had my Brose motor repaired/rebuilt last year after 5 years of all year round abuse, it cost £283 and took 3 days door to door
Batteries don't seem to be repairable, at least I've not seen anyone advertising the service
Once you decide what motor you want the next important thing is to find the nearest good dealer, ideally someone within an hour of where you live, so if you do have any warranty issues your not having to travel hours or box up the bike to return it
I bought my gen1 Levo in 2017 from Evans who were useless when it had a motor issue, ended up finding out about Berkshire Cycles in Crowthorne, popped in there to chat to them and 2 hours later I came out with a brand new motor under warranty and no fitment charge even though the bike wasn't supplied by them, ended up buying a gen 1 Kenevo and my current gen 2 Levo from them, they always try and get you in and out the same day and they have even removed batteries & motors from display bikes to fit to customer bikes when they have been out of stock of replacement parts
I found Specialized concept store to be awesome for warranty and service, even for a bike I bought elsewhere. I had a wiring issue with a Levo which they fixed quickly, the motor itself is fine.
Personally I'm not fussed about incremental motor gains. Geo/suspension is what I'm after and that's been sorted for a few years now. Resale value will be rock bottom anyway, so you may as well buy the previous generation at a discount rather than waiting for the next to come along.
Kicking and screaming I have just bought my first eMTB.I am old and off-road has just got too hard for me.I first chose my motor,Bosch CX gen 5 and then the bike.Moneys tight but I knew I needed full suspension and my preference for trails was 140mm travel so I went for a Cube Stereo Hybrid 144 for less than £4000.First impression was that it was an electric moped rather then a bicycle,however it did what was required of it in an impressive manner.In particular supposedly entry level suspension is amazingly competent these days.I updated the software to give more power and promptly dialed it back again as it was just too much for my needs.The biggest drawback was simply the sheer weight of the thing,26kgs is two and a half times the weight of my gravel bike which makes simple things like lifting it onto a rack or putting it into the car very difficult.Very mixed feelings at the moment,I have given it the name Terminator because it marks the beginning of the end of my proper cycling career!
My twopenneth having sat on the fence for ages….
I plumped for an on sale Canyon Neuron:On Fly, with a 400wh battery and the Bosch SX motor. I hadn’t ridden anything with more power but, honestly, this thing pumps out more than enough assistance. I can’t imagine how strong these CX/Avinox motors must be but even avoiding boost on mine, it pulls like a steam train up steep hills we have around here in the Calder Valley. I did want to still put the effort in and wanted just a nudge along, so the SX is spot on for that. Admittedly, the 400wh battery could be limiting, but if you are still willing to pedal, you just use a lower assistance and, boom, increased range. If you want to go everywhere in Boost, flat out, then the SX/400wh isn’t probably the bike for you.
As it is, delighted with mine, just dips under 20kg.
My intention was to buy a normal bike now then switch to electric when I retire in 4 years
I think there's something to be said for sticking to that plan. E-bike tech seems to be moving very fast atm, and the DJI stuff appears to have shaken up the whole area. It might be worth waiting a while to see how things develop.
Thanks for all the replies, interesting stuff. My reservation about normal bikes is that the £3k+ market seems to be heavily e-bike so resale of a normal but high spec bike in the future may be limited. Having just taken a hit on a 650b hardtail I'm reluctant to spend thousands on a shrinking market. Resale on e-bikes isn't brilliant apparently but then I won't necessarily need/want to replace it.
If I do get one now it'll be a sale bike around £3-5k so puts me firmly in the realms of older tech. Plenty of Orbea/Saracen/Giant/Mondraker/Canyon about with heavy discounts but most have Shimano motors or others not mentioned in this thread so far (TX, Yamaha?).
Other option is to buy a second hand normal bike and wait to buy what I want rather than what's on sale but my riding chums are also starting to glance at e-bikes so we'll see. I have my Spur for the majority of riding and will be keeping it so this one will be a trail centre basher and local gnar as much as anything.
Yamaha is pretty rebuildable I believe (apparently giant syncdrive is more proprietary). Try speaking to the major engine rebuilders (*that I know about j, that’s what I did, they were very helpful.
https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com
maybe talk/think about secondhand - you can get recon levo motors (and probably others)
Mine was just under £4k and I’m not convinced anything is old technology.
Range extenders currently available for sub £300 so you can have an effective 650wh battery.
It’s a funny time in ebike world. The arse appears to have fallen out of the ‘SL’ market & it seems like there is limited interest in it these days, with everyone focusing on the mid or full power space. That’s also starting to get a bit confused with the weight of full power bikes dropping to under 22kg in some cases.
In terms of motors, I would steer clear of anything Shimano - everyone is moving away from them for good reason.
Personally, I would pick something Bosch based if I was going full power, with the new update, it’s very close to the DJI, which I’ve ridden a lot on a new Mith, but has a massive dealer network if there is any issue. The form factor of the DJI is a bit nicer, but that’s it really now.
If I was going mid power, I’d probably go for something with the new TQ motor - it’s more efficient than the old one, it’s utterly silent in use & feels very natural. The Bosch SX had potential but it’s let down by being noisy in use, really noisy in descending & its power numbers are based on ridiculously high cadences.
So looking at the Canyon's the Neuron is SX, Spectral ONfly mid and Strive full fat? Will there be much real world difference in a 625Wh battery compared to the 750Wh? Is the bigger worth £150?
Feels like a bit of a numbers arms race with big torque figures being put out. I wonder at the end of the day really, there is only so much it's possible to use. Yes, you can have a Lamborghini and 600+ bhp for the road but.....
At the end of the day this power, plus your legs has to go through a chain and the freehub needs to hold it all together. Levos are known for collapsing freehubs with 90Nm and the wheels help hit a price point. Then there is the supposed speed limiter though this can be removed so motors work harder.
Reliability, serviceability and a good size battery are high on my list and if I'm honest, personally, a fair bit of the bike/phone interface is marketing overkill. I set the motor settings a fair while ago on the Levo and don't feel the need to change them....maybe I'm missing something... "625Wh battery compared to the 750Wh? Is the bigger worth £150?",I'd say yes as £150 as a percentage of teh whole bike, gives more range.
Finally, warranty. Spesh is a global one so when my battery had a problem on the first day of holiday 700kms from home the dealer in Czech Republic sorted it on the spot. Holiday saved as no-one enjoys pedaling a battery free e-bike for 10 days... plus, the dead Bosch battery was serviceable when I got home so now I have a spare.
Finally finally, two houses in the village have burnt down from e-bike battery fires, "probably" not big name brand related.
It’s a funny time in ebike world. The arse appears to have fallen out of the ‘SL’ market & it seems like there is limited interest in it these days, with everyone focusing on the mid or full power space. That’s also starting to get a bit confused with the weight of full power bikes dropping to under 22kg in some cases.
Thats all just marketing BS.
You pick your size battery and components and that decides the weight of an ebike, categories of SL, mid, full fat are just marketing BS
The Spectral OnFly is the TQ motor at 50nm, so lower power than the Neuron OnFly, which is 55nm, soon to be 60. The “OnFly” are the lighter power versions of the range, just the “On” versions are full power (and weight).
Other option is to buy a second hand normal bike and wait to buy what I want rather than what's on sale but my riding chums are also starting to glance at e-bikes so we'll see. I have my Spur for the majority of riding
If you have that lovely Spur for most of your riding, then I would deffo go secondhand for the bigger bike. It's still very much a buyers' market.
I don't see the sense in getting an eeb unless you actively feel the need for one, especially if your pals aren't even on them yet.
And if you're the first to cave in, you'll always take the blame for it 😉
i downtune my shimano to the lowest power assist in trail and boost - just because its nuts otherwise. 55nm is plenty for most riders i recon who are moderately fit to start with.
the problem with canyon is the really poor frame usage ratings . The ONfly linked above, which looks awesome BTW, is cat 3 so 'Sporadic jumps of a maximum height of approx. 60 cm are also included in the field of use of these bicycles'. which is fairly pointless for a MTB unless you are doing pretty much XC only. so you couldnt ride all teh reds at BPW, for instance, without voiding the warrenty.
2 foot jumps is plenty for me…..
The spectral is higher rated, I believe.
I see quite a few posts from people holding out for newer models etc because they think the tech is rapidly advancing but it really isn’t - there are some small leaps like from DJI but it’s nothing game-changing.
People I know who've ridden one of those would beg to differ, apparently it's the speed of response as much as the outright power. I think though it's potentially going to come down to how you view an e-mtb anyway. If what you want is a mountain bike with assistance for doing mountain bike-like things on and you're not bothered about having the fastest, baddest, most powerful e-bike in the pub, then that stuff's not particularly important and you're better off focussing on the overall riding experience, range, plus reliability.
If you're more in the 'what I really want is an e-motorbike but with pedal pressure substituted for a throttle' then it does feel a bit like DJI has triggered an arms race, see, for example, the latest up-specced, up-powered Levo.
As a fellow, heritage Levo rider - 2017, one motor rebuild / seal / bearing upgrade, £230-odd by the excellent ebike motor centre - I'm quite firmly in the former camp and I don't ride it often anyway.
If I were the OP, I'd borrow/hire an emtb or two and see what you think? It's a different riding experience and it'll help you work out what aspects of it matter most to you.
For repairs, e-bike motor centre as above, really, really good guys. Have a browse and you'll get an idea of which motors they can and can't repair. Batteries are a nightmare, if they do wrong, basically loads of lap-top lithium cells wired together and put in a box with bespoke circuitry. The latest Specialized ones were retailing for over a grand last time I looked and repair options seem to be limited. I guess that may change in time.
https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/
“If you're more in the 'what I really want is an e-motorbike but with pedal pressure substituted for a throttle' then it does feel a bit like DJI has triggered an arms race, see, for example, the latest up-specced, up-powered Levo.”
Maybe I’m missing something but it seems there are two dominant uses of eMTBs:
1. People using them like a normal bike but making the climbs easier or quicker or both.
2. People using them as a self-uplift at the sort of places where you’d otherwise be pushing up.
I’ve not seen/heard of/come across many people treating them like an enduro motorbike where they’re trying to do tech climbs at speed. I can see that having some more torque and power and responsiveness would be good for that, no doubt.
But for use cases 1 and 2, my old Gen 2 Levo is ridiculously fast uphill if I want it to be and has enough control at the pedals (and using the thumb controller) to climb techier stuff than I can manage on a normal bike.
The important stuff (for me) on a MTB is going downhill and that’s geometry and suspension. I find the extra central mass in an ebike makes it better downhill in both respects, more stable, more calm, more active suspension, etc.
I agree that testing some bikes is a good idea, particularly if you’re smaller/lighter or like a more nimble feeling bike.
I just had an afternoon at Rogate which is a small official push-up downhill place, blues, reds and blacks, really well built sandy rooty techy jumpy stuff. Lots of ebikes and lots of normal bikes. If you’re time-squeezed like me it is insane how fast you can get laps in vs a normal bike, even on an old bike with an old battery so I spent a lot of the time in eco mode to conserve power.
As the time went on I used trail and turbo mode as I realised I was going to lose downhill focus before the bike lost uphill assistance. Doing the last few climbs in turbo was comically quick considering how tired my legs were.
Had two KSLs, one with the 1.1 and the second the 2.1 motor.
I didn't mind the lower power, but the bit that was annoying that to get anything over 3500ft with a decent power level, you had to run a range extender which rendered the bottle cage out of action and also bolted another. Needed a 500 or 600 battery in there to make it work. 50nm out of the new motor was better, shame the reliability was turd. 400miles, 700miles, 0.3miles.
Now on Bosch Gen5 with a fixed 600 battery, 5000ft out of it all the time. Have turned it down a fair bit as have no need for 90nm.
1400miles in and no issues at all.
In our group, the Bosch has been the most reliable, shimano the worst by a long way. The Brose motors have rarely just failed out of the blue, they tend to start acting up, which is time to send them in for warranty or a rebuild.
I really wouldn't worry about ending up in another "650b situation". I don't think normal bikes are going anywhere (I ride mine more than the EMTB) and the resale of EMTB's is awful as they just have too many expensive failure points compared to normal bikes.
Maybe I’m missing something but it seems there are two dominant uses of eMTBs:
1. People using them like a normal bike but making the climbs easier or quicker or both.
2. People using them as a self-uplift at the sort of places where you’d otherwise be pushing up.
I’ve not seen/heard of/come across many people treating them like an enduro motorbike where they’re trying to do tech climbs at speed. I can see that having some more torque and power and responsiveness would be good for that, no doubt.
I've come across a few, but not the circles I normally move in, one of my mountaineering buddies, who's not really a 'mountain biker' is quite animated about going up things as fast as he possibly can, it's arguably what he likes most about ebikes. And then there's some of the media stuff, the MBR guys seem very animated about the DJI motor in a wetting themselves over the power output way and the likes of Steve Jones and Rob Rides EMTB also get a bit hung up on power output, but then I guess that's always the way with media.
I think what's maybe, more interesting, in a real life way, are integrated motor/gearbox units and belt drive give how much hammer e-mtb drive chains potentially get. I'm still amazed that Shimano Link Glide doesn't feature more on e-bike specs.
But anyway, the point I was trying to make, maybe badly, is that if you're someone who's bothered about higher power, torque, responsiveness, this stuff does seem to be advancing thanks to the Amflow bike. Personally I'm more interested in durability and reliability and it's hard to know how that's changing. You'd hope it'd be an ongoing process of improvement.
My shimano has been fine but the ep801 hasn't been updated in a while and lags behind, hence they're not common on new bikes imo
with any small part/agressive environment part there is a compromise between weight/longevity and durability.
a coupld of years is the lifespan aim i would think for most manufacturers - its certainly all teh warrenty you get for most offroad vehicles . seals will be the main problem. As we all know from Bottom Brackets none are really are fit and forget!
Probably already discussed to death but up until now I wasn't planning on buying an e-bike anytime soon so I've not paid much attention. My intention was to buy a normal bike now then switch to electric when I retire in 4 years but it's becoming obvious that electric is taking over the higher end of full suss so I don't fancy ending up with another 650b in the situation.
Its a very different thing. So id suggest you only buy one if you actually want one.
If all your riding buddies are still on regular bikes you may find yourself a bit out of step. I ride both regular (hardtail and gravel) and E (enduro FS). I sold my regular FS as the E enduro was so much more capable going downhill etc. but i have also found that rides with my main non E buddies are a bit underwhelming as a) they are sooooo slow b) I no longer getting any "exercise buzz". To get any sense of achievement i need to either ride on my own at 3x the speed or ride with other E riders.
I think they are brilliant but you do need to know what you are getting into, so buying E just because there are fewer regular options feels like the wrong call.
Thanks again all. Certainly seems a minefield but what will matter most to me is reliability and range. Not bothered about it being the most powerful or latest model and its main use will be to make it easier to reach the fun parts of rides and get me to fun places before I'm knackered. I'm reasonably bike fit and my XC bike will keep it that way.
I suppose I got here by thinking about what I want out of a bigger bike and that's the rougher stuff that's too much for the Spur (as it's set up atm). I probably should have kept my Stage 5 but after my last BPW trip where I pushed myself further than before I felt I could do with a bit more travel. That got me looking at upgrades, which then started to creep up in price until I got to the point where I could jump ship to E! I do plenty of riding on my own but should consider the chances of my pals switching anytime soon I guess? Who knows, I spend too much time thinking about bikes!
Any thoughts on Fazua motors? A Transition Relay as popped in to view....
I do plenty of riding on my own but should consider the chances of my pals switching anytime soon I guess?
In that case i's say keep the Spur first and foremost and then use any new E for the uplift days and riding on your own. If you can afford to do this of course.
FWIW i got the Orbea Wild (Bosch) and love it.
Re Fazua
i had a Boardman with the Fazua, it was great
However, following the Fazua group on Facebook, I Wouldn't at all, nothing but Issues,l customer support seems weak.. they promised a range extender, literally for years.. and then said nope.. not doing it now...
I do plenty of riding on my own but should consider the chances of my pals switching anytime soon I guess?
In that case i's say keep the Spur first and foremost and then use any new E for the uplift days and riding on your own. If you can afford to do this of course.
FWIW i got the Orbea Wild (Bosch) and love it.
Yeah, that would be the plan. The Spur is going nowhere as I love it.
For motors its best to stay away from Shimano purely because at the moment no one can really repair them, I think its something to do with Shimano not selling replacement parts so 3rd party repairs cant fix them
Well, Shimano can, and do under warranty. Or for a fee if out of warranty. So its not like you're stuck with a dead motor if it goes wrong any more than you are with any other ebike motor. My EP801 motor is excellent, perfect for the amount of power I need.
But it came in the bike I wanted (Moterra SL) - if I could've got bike of the same weight, for the same price, with a Bosch, I would probably would have. The Bosch has a better power delivery (by a small amount), and better display options (by a lot).
FYI This is from possibly the leading uk emotor repair shop website
“Within the UK we offer a full repair and overhaul service for Bosch, Brose, Impulse, Mahle, Panasonic and Yamaha ebike motors. Please note: We do not currently support Shimano motors.”
That's why I said Shimano do 🙄
Well, Shimano can, and do under warranty. Or for a fee if out of warranty. So its not like you're stuck with a dead motor if it goes wrong any more than you are with any other ebike motor.
Is that definitely true? I had the impression they didn't fix stuff out of warranty, good to hear if that's not the case.
So the Yorkshire Bike Mechanic on YouTube says. He dismantled a Shimano motor to show it was repairable. Thankfully I don't know, haven't needed to know and hopefully never will! 😀
Well, Shimano can, and do under warranty. Or for a fee if out of warranty. So its not like you're stuck with a dead motor if it goes wrong any more than you are with any other ebike motor.
Is that definitely true? I had the impression they didn't fix stuff out of warranty, good to hear if that's not the case.
i, and others, have had free replacements from Shimano beyond the 2 year warranty period and there appears to be a “discounted replacement” policy, presumably up to some notional product life (for some reason I think they might be 5 years). It doesn’t seem to be formal or published however.
there’s a cost per year of running a motor like there is for heating and suspension and tyres. If that’s £200 a year doesn’t seem terrible.
I’ve got the Shimano EP801 on my Decoy MX. It might not be the best or fanciest, but it rides enough and has plenty of power for me. I’ve only had it 6 months so not needed to test out the warranty yet
i’ve tried the Amflow and thought it was a great bike. I loved power and how it is dished out (this was before the mega power update), but I am plenty happy enough with what I have.
It’s good to know that Shimano will honour their warranty and will sell replacement motors out of that. I’d probably not buy a Shimano again as I’d want something that can be repaired by a 3rd party next time.
Just surprised that a company like Shimano don't do anything brutal to restore faith in their products. I know so many people with defective Shimano motors compared to very few with other brands, I was relieved to sell my Decoy (admittedly I sold it as I prefer an acoustic bike) as it's not so much the financial penalty but the hassle associated with it. Not good enough basically.
My Shimano motor failed just outside the warranty period, and they almost refused a replacement, but I was able to show I sent an email to complain about the noise just before the warranty expired, so I don't think you *always* get a replacement outside warranty.
It had about 4000 miles though, maybe they take that into account?
It would be a lot better if they just spelled this out in the warranty terms rather than leaving it up to chance when a replacement from Shimano is around 1000 pounds fitted, and bear in mind by this point battery might be showing its age too, as well as other normal wear and tear on bearings, bushings, fork, shock etc.
when a replacement from Shimano is around 1000 pounds fitted
you need to go to a nicer shop/ask madison nicer - mine was £400. and came with another 2 yrs warrenty. (it was 3.5yrs old - lots of miles).
I (and the shop i went to) have not heard of a shimano replacements being particularly hard to get unless the originals have been chipped - then they charge full price.
i went through a local steps dealer (not point of sale) who, ironically, dont sell shimano eebs (specialized dealer)
Any thoughts on Fazua motors? A Transition Relay as popped in to view....
The ginger stepchild of ebike motors. Actually, that's unfair (on gingers or on Fazua, I'll leave that open for debate). I've put 600km on my SC Heckler SL with Fazua Ride60 since January and really really like it. I'm fully aware of the experiences of others on the Facebook groups etc but mine's performed perfectly.
For me, the 60Nm and 430Wh battery is a good combo, especially in a bike with sizing/geometry that works for me. I've been ruined by my Geometron and struggled to find any ebike with reach/angles close to my G1. My search was led by geometry/weight first, and accepting the compromise on the motor brand. I wanted something I can lift over fences etc. It helped it was just over £4k in pre-festive sales rather than the £8k list. A robust build in XXL size weighing 20.6kg inc pedals and mudhugger etc (3.1kg more than my Geometron with a similar build).
The cancellation of the range extender was a kick in the balls as that'll limit big days riding with fullfat buddies, but it is what it is.
Current repair within the UK involves Upgrade UK who send them off to Fazua themselves, so not ideal.
My lbs is a ‘Shimano Service Centre’, and were very helpful getting me a replacement motor out of warranty. It cost a third of a new one and is still going strong three years later. However I couldn’t recommend a Shimano mainly due to their unrepairability (if there is such a word). People have been disassembling ICE for a very long time, why can’t they be trusted to take a small electric motor apart?
why can’t they be trusted to take a small electric motor apart?
i assume its because they need to be super well-sealed and there are quite fine tolerances.
I`ll agree the lack of repairability is definately not great though. i'd be interested to know what happens to the returned motors.
It’s a funny time in ebike world. The arse appears to have fallen out of the ‘SL’ market & it seems like there is limited interest in it these days, with everyone focusing on the mid or full power space. That’s also starting to get a bit confused with the weight of full power bikes dropping to under 22kg in some cases.
In terms of motors, I would steer clear of anything Shimano - everyone is moving away from them for good reason.
Personally, I would pick something Bosch based if I was going full power, with the new update, it’s very close to the DJI, which I’ve ridden a lot on a new Mith, but has a massive dealer network if there is any issue. The form factor of the DJI is a bit nicer, but that’s it really now.
If I was going mid power, I’d probably go for something with the new TQ motor - it’s more efficient than the old one, it’s utterly silent in use & feels very natural. The Bosch SX had potential but it’s let down by being noisy in use, really noisy in descending & its power numbers are based on ridiculously high cadences.
Agree... Mostly... But... Bosch SX is in my experience, not as noisy as most other motors (sure it's noisier than a CX, but compared to EP8 or Mahle/Spesh SL motors its practically silent!)... And yes the cadences it works best at are very high (Peak 600w power comes at 108rpm currently), but when it goes from 55Nm to 60Nm with the October update that 600w peak will come down slightly to around 100rpm... The thing is though, it might take 108rpm currently to get 600w, but it's still making 500w @ 90rpm which is mighty impressive when the bikes its fitted to typically weigh 4-5kg less than a full fat... A Gen3 Spesh Levo (which is what 80% of my riding mates are still riding) is 565w peak power and weighs 23kg upwards, I've already dropped a few Levo riders on my SX powered bike up climbs although I was punching 100+rpm in order to do so... Subjectively, I find the SX more fun to ride than the CX too, it's high rpm style really suits the way I ride, at least on shorter 2-3hr rides. The CX is like a 3L diesel, it's a mighty impressive torquey motor, it can be revved but there's no need to and it's super smooth and quiet... The SX is like a 600cc motorbike engine, it can be ridden at low rpm's and is super smooth and incredibly inoffensive, or you can thrash the tits off it at super high rpm and it punches way above its weight, at least until the fuel runs out that is... If you have a high cadence pedalling style ad the fitness to go with it, a bike with a Bosch SX and a range extender is all you need to keep up with your full fat mates all day...
A mate has the new Yeti LTe with the new TQ HPR60 fitted... It's clearly way better than the HPR50, much more efficient and the larger 580Wh battery is far more useful... It's only 350w peak power though which might not be an issue for some, but it'll be dropped like its hot by a Bosch SX bike or any full fat bike... It is super quiet and seems incredibly well thought out, but if you ride with other people on other motor systems you're always going to be coming up short in the horsepower wars!
why can’t they be trusted to take a small electric motor apart?
i assume its because they need to be super well-sealed and there are quite fine tolerances.
I`ll agree the lack of repairability is definately not great though. i'd be interested to know what happens to the returned motors.
The torque sensor on the axle failed on mine (and the other one we had suffered a cracked axle due to an e13 crank). As far as I could work out torque sensor is bonded to axle and needs calibrating, plus axles are pressed in in a way that wouldn’t be available in a repair shop. I’m pretty sure Shimano are just recycling/binning the motors they replace. Specialized had the worst failure rate on motors for years - I’m pretty certain all the warranty replacements were/are new motors rather than reconditioned.
there are lots of motors on cars that are replaced rather than being repaired. It might not be very sustainable but can see from a corporate pov why they might have taken the decision not to try to manage repair/service (the only other part on a bike that is similar is suspension and that has been an issue with various brands over the years )
if you ride with other people on other motor systems you're always going to be coming up short in the horsepower wars!
yes but its not all about horsepower unless you only ride up fire roads in boost. riding a lighter eeb bike down teh hill will be much much better than a 27kg tank FF eeb. Big heavy FF eebs take alot of effort to ride well (if you are only doing xc less so). when i tried a friends YT eeb i was stunned at how much harder, and harder work, it was to razz down a hill, get sideways on jumps etc than my lighter one. it made be absolutely not want a big tank of an ebike just yet. for me, at least for now, fun is more important. I agree that a big FF eeb does have its place though.
Personally, riding a heavy ebike down a hill is just as good as my much lighter enduro. There are some caveats and differences, but essentially, I like the weight distribution, the suspension works brilliantly on the heavier bike and using the weight distribution through my feet, it changes direction brilliantly and quickly. I ride both every week, both different and both ace fun. For long, fast, bumpy downhills I prefer the heavy ebike. 🙂
Bosch gen 4 and EP8 here, both working as they should after an intense 5 months!
I’ve found my full fat (and heavy) ebike actually rides as good if not better downhill than my previous enduro and DH bikes. The only time it feels cumbersome is flatter trails (like Lego Woods in Bristol) where you butt up against the 25kph limit. For anything steep, quick or tight (think anything from Haldon Forest, Dartmoor, Exmoor, FOD, Morzine, Les Gets, Tignes, etc)it’s great.
Funnily enough I was chatting to a guy this afternoon who has recently swapped from a Levo SL to the Levo Gen 4 (which he’s just crashed and cracked the frame at The Ex) and he said the SL was great as his only bike, but the motor and battery couldn’t hold up to the thrashing he’d been giving it on his rides. He much preferred the bigger Gen 4 (despite braking the frame)
He was absolutely flying when I tried to follow him down the trail though, so might go harder than a lot of people.
I’m pretty sure Shimano are just recycling/binning the motors they replace. Specialized had the worst failure rate on motors for years - I’m pretty certain all the warranty replacements were/are new motors rather than reconditioned.
Someone on here seemed to think that Specialized reconditioned warrantied motors. It always seemed unlikely to me, but a bit of googling suggests that Brose does salvage bits of warrantied e-bike motor for re-use. That's the good news, in sustainability terms anyway - the bad news is that it's mostly the electrical bits as mechanical components tend to be too worn to recycle, so it's still a big chunk/maybe all of the mechanical parts just being scrapped.
https://www.ebike24.com/blog/ebike-brose-remanufacturing
I'm guessing mass production of e-bike motors is relatively straightforward, reconditioning them on a large scale less so, quite labour intensive if you're going to disassemble, check tolerances, replace bearings etc, then reassemble. It sounds like the sort of thing that would only happen if there was a legal obligation to do it. Just taking off the electrical bits for re-use would be easier, I think.
I picked up a bike from Specialized in Switzerland and there was a pallet stacked over a metre high with warrantied motors.....
This probably answers most questions from the team that fix them.
and...
Re the FF vs mid/lightweight discussion above
I want to say its horses for courses
A few years ago i had the pleasure of back to back riding an Orbea rise and wild
the FF Wild was an absolute tank, fastest bike i had ever ridden on a section of trail i knew well, however, that isn't what i wanted, being able to go faster and faster primarily because of the bike...... As a nearly 50 year old with a mortgage etc and a body which is definitely softer than the trees i was whizzing past at a now hospitalization rate isn't my goal for mountain biking. The margin of error was significantly smaller than i was used to, and impact speeds higher. This was most definitely due to the weight, and well damped heavier tyres on the Wild. I don't choose to set my regular bikes up like that as i need to ride up hills, subsequently when i ride down them line choice and riding lighter becomes more critical, and arguably more fun for me.
To back that up, when i was looking at some of the bargain full weight full power bikes, a mate of mine who rides the same place as me warned me, for where we ride, which in the winter especially, involves lots of sludge covered chalk and tight steep switch backs, maybe a 25+kg bike isn't what I'd enjoy
I think the wild was definitely midweight/low 20s as it was the top spec model, but I had more fun on the 16KG Rise which had more than enough power to assist me up the the hills on my regular trails
the motor on the Rise is perfect, apart from mine breaking... But the frame left something to be desired with the Yoke setup and constant creaking. I'm quite fussy with bikes and hate noise....but i'm yet to find an Eeb i've ridden that doesn't make horrible noises and it's massively put me off buying one. I simply can't accept that level of noise.
To be fair a lot of newer full fat eebs are less than 25+ kgs
My Orbea Wild with 730w battery is around 23.5kg
Apart from the hum from the motor my 2018 Vitus esommot isn't any noisier than any other full suspension MTB I've ridden
I picked up a bike from Specialized in Switzerland and there was a pallet stacked over a metre high with warrantied motors.....
This probably answers most questions from the team that fix them.
Ace, thanks, I'll check it out.
the motor on the Rise is perfect, apart from mine breaking... But the frame left something to be desired with the Yoke setup and constant creaking. I'm quite fussy with bikes and hate noise....but i'm yet to find an Eeb i've ridden that doesn't make horrible noises and it's massively put me off buying one. I simply can't accept that level of noise.
Im with you on that - the noise is a huge irritation
the motor on the Rise is perfect, apart from mine breaking... But the frame left something to be desired with the Yoke setup and constant creaking. I'm quite fussy with bikes and hate noise....but i'm yet to find an Eeb i've ridden that doesn't make horrible noises and it's massively put me off buying one. I simply can't accept that level of noise.
Bosch Gen5 are a big step forward in quietness, near damn silent with mine. Vala is also a quiet bike, it wants a new lower clutch pivot thing at some point.
but I had more fun on the 16KG Rise
I wasn't aware there'd ever been a16kg rise !?
I'm led to believe the M-LTD Team model or whatever that i demoed was around that figure
the original m team was 18.5 according to this I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a lighter weight claimed.
real world the rise is c20kg in a “good” spec with sensible tyres
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/orbea-rise-m-team-2021-review/
edit looks like im wrong
https://www.cyclingelectric.com/reviews/orbea-rise-review
the motor on the Rise is perfect, apart from mine breaking... But the frame left something to be desired with the Yoke setup and constant creaking. I'm quite fussy with bikes and hate noise....but i'm yet to find an Eeb i've ridden that doesn't make horrible noises and it's massively put me off buying one. I simply can't accept that level of noise.
My Mondraker Crafty currently is one of the quietest bikes I have ever owned, if not the quietest... OK so the Gen5 Bosch CX is one of the quietest eBike motors going, but along with a DT 24T ratchet rear hub, Eagle 90 Transmission, effective chainslap insulation on the stays, a silent EXT Storia coil shock (some shocks don't half squelch through their travel by comparison!) and nothing inherently rattly or things that want to interfere with each other as the bike rattles over bumps, and it's impressive not just how quiet it is for an eBike, but for a bike overall!
OK so if I stick it in turbo mode, the motor whines a tiny bit more as it delivers 100Nm and 750W, but that's as much noise as it makes entirely... I haven't even been able to get the brakes to squeal as yet in over 500 miles of riding! Previous most notably quiet bike was my old Nicolai/Geometron G15, which was similarly well designed and thought out and not lacking in rear end stiffness... I've had a few flexy bikes in my time that have made lots of noise almost all of the time, and they never last!
I think the motor noise annoys some folk much more than others. It certainly annoys me
I think the motor noise annoys some folk much more than others. It certainly annoys me
The tq hpr motors are nearly silent, certainly no rattle, and motor whine is only slightly audible at higher power
Yeah, I’m impressed with the quietness of the TQ, it’s made me add motor noise to my list of e-bike purchase criteria, I never used to think my levo was noisy but now having the exe as well I do notice the levo, its very liveable but just not as nice as the TQ. mostly noticeable when I’m in awestruck , gazing around countryside viewing bimblealong mode.
I think the motor noise annoys some folk much more than others. It certainly annoys me
The tq hpr motors are nearly silent, certainly no rattle, and motor whine is only slightly audible at higher power
would still annoy me - but I like a silent bike. I think its a very subjective thing. Any noise annoys me - riding my derailleur bike after the hub geared the noise of the chain thru the jockey wheels annoys me 🙂