[Closed] The (e-)apocalypse is nigh!

Having seen my disabled 8 year old son struggle with a kids' e-bike I can tell you that you don't just sit on them and press a button and be whisked away into the sunset. You have to ride it like a normal bike. I'm watching this genre of cycling with great interest and if it costs £2/3k to get him riding with me that's money well spent. Bring it on.

soft rears got shredded fair quickly too due to power being put out on rocky surfaces round south wales.

Bit worrying to think what they might do to softer trails then?

IHNRAEBADWTTYVM

Bit worrying to think what they might do to softer trails then?

Not an issue I came across while riding mud, like I said couldn't get the rear to spin even when trying to prevoke it, had the bike for a month or so and had tested (played) with it on a fair few trails and conditions.
Gummy DH/trail tyres come apart pretty quick with normal riding in the valleys.

Bit worrying to think what they might do to softer trails then

About as worrying as people mashing a spinny gear on their normal MTB through soft trails, or inappropriate skidding etc.

I'm not saying it's a non-issue, but again it comes back to the kind of people that will/do ride bikes like this are unlikely to be putting down max power anyway, they'll be roughly equivalent to a normal gnarcore MTBer, you're not going to see a sudden uptake of super fit cyclists suddenly take up eBiking.

Seriously, take Loco's advise and try one, get a feel for how they actually work, and how much assist they actually give, it's always better to be informed 🙂

[i]it's always better to be informed[/i]

You know this is stw, right?

amedias, all spot on imo, good points well made. E bikes imo are either road-legal pedelecs that are nothing to worry about or they're in the same group as mopeds, 'crossers etc - neither is any threat to current bike access. Let the anti-bike grumps and nimbys moan, it's what they're there for.
(ridden some road-legal e bikes)

I think the problem is that e-bikes are a little misunderstood. It's kind of like comparing real ale and lager or red wine and white wine - one's never going to replace the other, but they both have their place.

I was like most people completely anti-ebike until October last year when we went to Granada and my girlfriend booked us on a tour of the city and mountains which used e-bikes. What I realised is that it can still be hard work if you want it to be, you pick the amount of assistance you require 1-3 (or no assistance if you really want to ride a 22kg bike up a mountain track). The main advantage is that you can see far more in 3 hours than you otherwise would with pedal power alone - so I think they have a purpose.

Would I buy one myself and take it to Llandegla or the Peak District? -No, that's not really what they're for. Would I consider hiring one if I was touring in the alps and had a limited number of days and wanted to go off road- possibly, yes! Especially if I was with a mixed ability group and the purpose was more about taking in the surroundings rather than riding principally for exercise.

I do suspect we might see a few Ebike related injuries, when less fit, less skilled peeps riding these fast and heavy bikes "get it wrong" and come a cropper! (i REALLY don't fancy getting hit on the back of the head by a 50lb ebike when i go OTB!)

We need to look at them as pedal assisted motor bikes rather than motor assisted bicycles.

Wow, those "speed unlimiting" dongles are a nice little earner! £150 for a total of £1 worth of electronics (just a frequency "divide by two")!

zippykona - Member
We need to look at them as pedal assisted motor bikes rather than motor assisted bicycles.

Well, you can look at them however you choose but if you'd actually ridden one you'd realise that they're (currently at least) actually nothing like that...

wot no machine gun?

Is anyone on this thread involved with the promotion, sales or business of ebikes? Just so we know like.

Watch it ton!

Wrecker - Not me FWIW.

With regard to the NIMBY's....they will focus one the fact it has a 250w motor...that can be deristricted.
They wont care about the semantics of 'pedal-assist'....to the anti-brigade this is now a motorised MTB regardless of how that motor is used,

Well put

It's also worth pointing out that the people we're going to come up against on this issue don't care about the subtle differences between motorbikes, e-bikes and mountain bikes, they want to get rid of ALL bikes in [b][i]'THIER'[/b][/i] countryside and they'll use the fact that to the general public bike + motor = motorbike as a very effective stick to beat us with and try and get us all banned.

I have ridden several e-bikes, they were hilarious but I am hugely worried by what impact the offroad versions could have on the freedom to go MTB'ing in this country considering how vociferous the anti-brigade are and how sensitive access to some of our most treasured riding spots (Surrey Hills anyone?) is.

Is anyone on this thread involved with the promotion, sales or business of ebikes? Just so we know like.

I'm not as I think you'll have guessed from my posts, just giving you what I found from my time on one

not me. owned 2 through illness. they were super, but got rid as soon as I was fixed.

I reckon some of the haterz would love em too if they got ill, and ebikes kept em riding.

There is a lot of misinformation going around, and as a result a lot of poorly formed opinions. The vote on the front page is already being won by "I don't like electric bikes and have not ridden one".

Caveat- I used to sell electric bikes, I now no longer work in the bike industry but maintain that they are a good thing. I was skeptical before I spent a decent amount of time on one. I now work as a geologist and don't sip the kool-aid of the bike companies.

As stated above, all comparisons to motor bikes are unreasonable. You have to work to keep the bike moving, you can't just sit there. Also the assistance is limited to a speed which you are likely to exceed on a lot of terrain pointing anything other than uphill. On rough tracks where you'd be going slower it'd be advisable to turn off the electric assist as it may give you more of a boost than you need.

So, they can't go faster than a normal bike downhill. Which is where most confrontation in our sport will occur. I doubt any walker will have been whacked going uphill by a speeding cyclist. Similarly, the thing riding the bike still has a brain with which it can register that there are walkers ahead and slow down. Up most uphills you are unlikely to be doing near the top speed- it is still hard work to pedal the bike, but you are assisted.

They don't put down much more power than a normal bike, and are not likely to chew up the trails compared to a normal cyclist. Especially in the volumes that will be sold- they aren't going to become the next enduro bike.

This opens up our sport to more people who would not be able to do it, older people, people with disabilities and illnesses that mean they could not normally cover larger distances, people who are injured. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

They will really shine as commuter bikes rather than MTBs- someone who wants to get to work cheaply but doesn't want to get to work sweaty and has a 10 mile commute to cover now has a genuine alternative to a car. The shop I worked in sold most e-bikes to people like this who wanted to ditch the car but had a distance they could not reasonably commute as someone who wasn't a cyclist, and wasn't getting into cycling for fitness.

Oh, and I have no business interest in offroad E-bikes, which you probably have already gathered.

I'm not as I think you'll have guessed from my posts, just giving you what I found from my time on one

It's also worth pointing out that the people we're going to come up against on this issue don't care about the subtle differences between motorbikes, e-bikes and mountain bikes, they want to get rid of ALL bikes in 'THIER' countryside and they'll use the fact that to the general public bike + motor = motorbike as a very [b]in[/b]effective stick to [s]beat us with[/s] [b]wave while moaning pointlessly[/b] and try[b]ing futile attempts to gain any credibility[/b] and get us all banned.

Is anyone on this thread involved with the promotion, sales or business of ebikes? Just so we know like.

Well put

It's also worth pointing out that the people we're going to come up against on this issue don't care about the subtle differences between motorbikes, e-bikes and mountain bikes, they want to get rid of ALL bikes in 'THIER' countryside and they'll use the fact that to the general public bike + motor = motorbike as a very effective stick to beat us with and try and get us all banned.

I have ridden several e-bikes, they were hilarious but I am hugely worried by what impact the offroad versions could have on the freedom to go MTB'ing in this country considering how vociferous the anti-brigade are and how sensitive access to some of our most treasured riding spots (Surrey Hills anyone?) is.

This!

IHREB

But it was a modified old MTB with a throttle and custom built drivetrain. It was great fun. The chap who built it said he often rides it to the shops.

If ebikes become a problem on Strava, they'll probably add an extra category for them. It already has loads beyond ride and run.

Think most of the hate is from the trail gods that will have spent 4-5 grand on an boutique bike and are upset they might get passed by a biffer on a cheaper bike with a motor. Add fatbike to ebike you get the perfect recipe to wind these people up.

I would have thought that with the e-assist they could potentially be smoother uphill than a normal bike and potentially cause less damage. Especially if they are a fat-bike.

Personally I don't have a problem with them provided they stay speed restricted, as without it there is the potential for some very high speed accidents.

If it gets people out who wouldn't be able to otherwise then great. If other people want to use them anyway I still don't have a problem. What difference does it make to me? Maybe those people will switch to a normal bike after e-biking for a bit. Maybe they won't.

I don't give a crap about Strava times and I don't see the point. Most of the time my best sense of satisfaction is competing against myself. The rest of the time it's having fun with mates and making sure you're not the last one down the hill/to the pub. But making sure you all make it safe and sound. If a mate is best on an e-bike then so be it, it make it more a challenge for the rest of us to make sure we beat him/her.

doh
Think most of the hate is from the trail gods that will have spent 4-5 grand on an boutique bike

You called?? lol!

Seriously though, i'm not sure i class ANY kind of motor assisted two wheeled vehicle in the same class as my mountain bike? I mean, my current local MTB loop takes me about 45mins,but i could probably do it in 15mins on an Enduro Motorbike. But why would i ever compare them? As soon as ANY significant power is coming from a source that isn't your legs, it's not a pedal powered device. Perhaps i should enter the TDF on a R1 with a couple of cranks and pedals stuck to the side? I'd make those 60kph stage average speeds look WELL slow! 😉

Just out of interest Skydragon, have you ridden one?

I get the fact it's a modest power assist rather than press a button and shred. I also respect the fact that for some disabled people, an e-bike may offer a way of experiencing cycling which they might not otherwise be able to do so.

But I still stand by the view that if the average Joe starts buying an e-bike as a way to experience MTB riding (possibly fuelled by the belief it will be physically easier) then we are going to see a whole load of problems. If MTB e-bikes start becoming mainstream, I personally believe this is a bad thing as per my OP.

As already pointed out, when you get too old to pedal, there is the option of stopping riding (the route I will choose in the not too distant future)

doh - Member
Add fatbike to ebike you get the perfect recipe to wind these people up.

[img] [/img]

As soon as ANY significant power is coming from a source that isn't your legs, it's not a pedal powered device.

E-bikes do not add [i]significant[/i] power. They add a small amount.

I also don't buy that average joes will buy them. They will cost a lot for a good one for a very long time.

It's still added power from another source and it's potentially 250w to boot....that's significant in my book.

There's a reason the bike weighs about 20lbs more than a normal bike and that's because of the battery and motor....it's there working away, it ain't just the rider on an e-bike but nice try!

Mark's video on the main page seems to suggest it is a significant amount of power. I'm not sure a small amount of power would be enough to smash strava times on a 50lb bike.

munrobiker

E-bikes do not add significant power. They add a small amount.

You'll note i carefully used the word "significant"! Whilst in the grand scheme of things, 250watts is just 1/3 of a horsepower, and tiny in the modern world, as a typical "hobby" MTB rider, i average something around 200watts of power on my rides.
Hence an Ebike of 250watts peak is able to double my average power output for the duration of my ride. That IS significant!

(and quite clearly why riding one immediately gives you KOMs. If the power added was "insignificant" then you wouldn't get a KOM if you were previously the un-assisted KOM holder)

[img] [/img]

I'm curious.. Who are these disabled people who will be 'allowed' to benefit from an ebike? Because it occurred to me as I rode to work this morning that if you can't ride a normal bike you are not going to be able to ride an ebike.

Chronic fatigue is the one that springs to my mind Mark.

Still not convinced. Chronic fatigue is pretty debilitating and riding an ebike is still pretty strenuous. It just allows you to get up technical climbs faster. I think there's a considerable underestimation from the people who have not ridden an ebike just how much effort you still have to put in.

Now I know that in the video I shot I deliberately went out to try and poach as many KOMs as I could to make a point but it's interesting to note that no matter how hard I tried on the road I couldn't get in to the top half of any of the road sections. eBikes are not going to affect roadies and their KOM's simply due to the fact that they offer no assistance above 15mph, which is pretty slow for a high achieving Strava roadie. I was also no where near any decent times on any of the DH sections either. Techy, off-road climbs are a different kettle of fish. That's where the Strava damage will be done.

occurred to me as I rode to work this morning that if you can't ride a normal bike you are not going to be able to ride an ebike.

someone with a heart problem, or asthma?

Did you see the link about de-limitting them? Essentially just tweek the speedo so it "thinks" it's always under 15mph.

I'm curious.. Who are these disabled people who will be 'allowed' to benefit from an ebike? Because it occurred to me as I rode to work this morning that if you can't ride a normal bike you are not going to be able to ride an ebike.

I thought this too when I saw you huffing and puffing in that vid TBH.

Sounds like Ton on this thread uses one, so maybe he can explain how it's better than a pushbike for him as somebody with health problems?

I've got a pretty strong opinion on the issue but I'm willing to listen to all sides and I appreciate Loco setting the record straight on trail damage.

For reference, although 250W sounds pretty small, at 15mph, it's equivalent to the rider pushing the pedals around with 20.6Kg of force (assuming 34/13 ratio, 26" wheels (no kittens were harmed etc etc) and 175mm cranks).

Whilst that isn't quite a "stand in the pedals and slog it out" effort i doubt too many people would consider than kind of additional force insignificant 😉

(in reality, because we don't pedal in perfect circles, it will be equivalent to rather more effort during just the efficient pedal down stroke part of the crank rotation)

Who are these disabled people who will be 'allowed' to benefit from an ebike?

The bike is heavier so you have an overhead of power required just to get to being equivalent to an unpowered bike. For arguments sake lets say a bike weight is 15% of of the all-up weight and ignoring wind resistance etc at slow speeds uphill is 15% of the power. If that increases to 25% of the weight but, again for round numbers, lets say the e-assist doubles the available power then you have say a 60% increase in available power assuming the person is the same power output.

But I am not sure how many of those bikes can output 250W for say a 3-5hr ride? assuming the time split is 50% climbing, 30% flat and the rest down hill will they have to be on the lower power mode?

Think most of the hate is from the trail gods that will have spent 4-5 grand on an boutique bike and are upset they might get passed by a biffer on a cheaper bike with a motor. Add fatbike to ebike you get the perfect recipe to wind these people up.

Think that's bad, you should see it when you pass them in a 4 wheeled DH bike 😉

But I am not sure how many of those bikes can output 250W for say a 3-5hr ride? assuming the time split is 50% climbing, 30% flat and the rest down hill will they have to be on the lower power mode?

Haibikes with Bosch motors are all about that, uphill and along flat to get going to 15mph handy, downhill power assist only good out of corners & a pain when putting an additional pedal stroke in as can get a slightly delayed surge of power which made me overshoot a corner or 2 downhill on steep techy stuff

Would I buy one myself and take it to Llandegla or the Peak District? -No, that's not really what they're for.

What are these e-bikes with 6" travel and disc brakes for then?