[Closed] The (e-)apocalypse is nigh!

I rode a Scott e bike and thought it was an absolute hoot! I've said it before, if I had a long commute I would consider one as shirley it's still better than taking the car? Also for those whose health limits their exertion they have to be a good thing?

I'm just wondering if, just for some context, we could all sign off our posts with...

'I have ridden an ebike'
or
'I have not ridden an ebike'

Maybe IHREB & IHNREB?

I have ridden e-bikes - not off-road but as demo bikes at shows.
They're an absolute blast, brilliant fun. It's just another dimension to biking. I mean, you can't go out and blat the crap out of everything cos (a) the battery will die after 10 miles and (b) it cuts out at 15mph anyway. The power-assist is pointless downhill.

You know how full-sus opened up technical trails that, 15 years ago, were unthinkable on the bikes that were available then (XC whippet style bikes with long stems / head-down positions)? Or how the modern full-sus allows people to ride for longer, in greater comfort?

Well e-bikes have done the same but for steep and/or technical climbs, they'll allow people to ride further or for longer or on terrain they wouldn't have been able to before.

No different to what a full sus with massive disc brakes has allowed the gravity brigade to do. This is a bike for the anti-gravity brigade!

I don't buy the analogy with improvements to suspensions, brakes etc for going downhill.

Fundamentally it's no longer a human powered activity.

Put one of these bikes in front of Joe Public and they'll still think it's a bicycle, not a motorbike.

I'll be buying one of these when I'm old. I'll be riding right up to being put in a coffin because of that battery and motor. What's wrong with that?

I have ridden one, but only about 100 yards on a fire trail.

Fundamentally it's no longer a human powered activity.

Except that without a human pedalling it, it can't go anywhere... As Mark pointed out, it does still feel like cycling.

Put one of these bikes in front of Joe Public and they'll still think it's a bicycle, not a motorbike.

For now. I reckon that over time that may well change as they become more fine tuned. A bit like motorbikes started out as bikes with an engine bolted on and then evolved.

Friends don't let friends ebike

they do if the ebiker has a fubar ticker.

IHREB

Fundamentally it's no longer a human powered activity.

It is still a human powered activity because the motor is an [b]assist[/b] not an independent motor.

Fundamentally it's no longer a human powered activity

You still need to pedal to go, just less pedal for the same amount of go, it's assist only and not full Wattage all the time, the human is still required and still provides a fair chunk of the power.

Once you get > 16mph there's no assist so 100% human (and in fact worse as you're lugging extra weight)

EDIT - beaten to it

IHREB (though I don't own one and don't intend to until old age/illness requires me to to continue cycling)

So it's human powered, except for the up to 250W of the power input coming from a battery?

any pedal assist ebike is human powered.

Well e-bikes have done the same but for steep and/or technical climbs, they'll allow people to ride further or for longer or on terrain they wouldn't have been able to before.

Setting aside those with chronic health issues, I'm honestly not sure why this is a good thing?

And isn't it like having a sack of spuds on board when you go downhill again anyway?

100% behind them for commuting though!

they do if the ebiker has a fubar ticker.

I'm just struggling to get past the first law of thermodynamics with these things, sort of human powered in the same way as a rowing boat with a motor. which switches off when you stop rowing.

for me personally i find this an interesting genre that i hope evolves into Lighter/better/longer duration. With a dodgy ticker in my chest, i reckon in 5-10 years time, i'll be on one of these just so i can keep riding.
i don't give a stuff about strave and i don't race. what i do like is to ride my bike, so anything that will aid me or others in my situation in later years gets a big thumbs up.

Yes, exactly like that but they're still (partially/mainly) powered by a human.

FWIW, you won't get far at the full 250W (that's the 'turbo' mode) so currently people would typically be getting a much [i]more[/i] modest 'assist' so they're more human powered.

What an ebike does is take your route altitude profile and effectively stretch it out, making the climbs less steep and potentially extending the length of your ride. That's it. The climbs still hurt depending on your fitness - they just hurt less than if you were not on an ebike. On the DH they offer no advantages. On the flats they offer no advantages if you exceed 15mph. If you ride at 15.1mph then it's all you and no motor. The times you really feel it are when you are riding slow.. The faster you go the more it feels like it's you doing the work and not the bike.

I've not ridden an e-bike. Nor will I ever want to. If the day comes I'm not able to ride a push bike on my own, under my own steam then its time to go and find something else to do in my spare time (I've got plenty of stuff I can be getting on with). Sorry but I'm really against them in the same way that a sailor would/should be against other people putting motors on their boats etc. If you want a motor boat, by a motor boat. If you want a bike with a motor, buy a motorbike.

That way we can all go back to just riding our bikes for fun and smiles rather than waving our d*cks around because we are 0.0006 sec faster than some other muppet around some arbitrary course on some arbitrary day........

Rubbish - since discovering Strava last year I love riding with it. Yes, you can do all the 'racing' stuff but I like the analysis of my rides and stuff. I want to improve on a bike and get faster - if I can compare that to times on trails without 30/40 riders all charging down it at the same time to see who is faster, then great.

[img] [/img]

IHNREBHANDITDSUAICUM

The speed restriction thing is balls anyway, there's no technical reason why the assist cuts out. One of the UK online sellers for these things is advertising the benefits of de-restricting them:

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/how-to-de-restrict-a-bosch-electric-bike/

For those who keep describing people who use e-bikes as lazy/fat/stupid/etc, please try to be less ignorant.
I've got close family members with severe chronic illnesses who used to be keen bikers, they got seriously ill, recovered a little but they'll never be strong enough to ride a 'real' bike again, and the e-bikes they bought have been absolutely brilliant - they're now able to go out on the bikes for an enjoyable all-day pootle and the effort you do still have to put in is gradually helping with their health and fitness all the time. They aren't motorised vehicles, they're pedal assist and fairly discreet in appearance so I don't see the access argument as a major issue - it's not like anyone's going to be bombing along a trail in a cloud of two-stroke.

People who are going to get genuinely upset that their Strava KOM's been 'beaten' need to get a grip.

And isn't it like having a sack of spuds on board when you go downhill again anyway?

Yes it is.

I'm just struggling to get past the first law of thermodynamics with these things, sort of human powered in the same way as a rowing boat with a motor. which switches off when you stop rowing.

Riding one will help with your understanding undoubtedly. Have you ever been riding up a climb and had one of your mates come up along side and gently push you by holding your saddle? It's a bit like that.

No doubt that'll happen. The equivalent of riding cheeky trails I guess..

I'm all for them in concept and I reckon they'd be fun as a different experience to 'normal' cycling but I am concerned about the potential long term impact they could have on our access rights.

Borrowed an ebike last year to sort suspension and geometry (160 trail bike)

After sorting it, the suspension being not having enough compression control for the extra weight (60 odd lbs) with a good spec. kit build.
I managed some stupidally quick times on climbs KOM at BPW up off road climb by over 2.30 mins etc (I didn't make this public so don't show on leaderboards)
Uphill bonkers fun and able to lift front wheel at will to power wheelie/steer, along the flat pretty good but need more input to turn due to weight, downhill not great down to weight and most of the time motor cut out as going to quick, corner exit 'push' was handy though.

anyone who thinks they will ever take over mtb's or become mainstream is a fool.
they are a means to a end, to be used when ill or disabled in some way.
nobody would buy one and choose to ride it rather that riding a proper mtb.

No I try to avoid being groped by my mates when riding up hill. So, other than the battery inputting energy (i.e. mot human), they're human powered. I get it.

The 350w motor will always be illegal to use on the road as its above the motor wattage limit. Its fairly obvious when looking at the bike that is is a speed pedelec. This cannot be used on the road at all – as one guy recently found out when he was hit by a bus. The cyclist was not at fault but had the book thrown at him when his bike was accessed and found to be a Bosch S pedelec. He was then liable for all damages resulting in a lot of money, he also lost his driving license as a 350w motor is classed as a motor vehicle!

With this in mind remember that the 250w motor with the dongle fitted will actually out speed the 350w motor. It is also compliant (with the dongle detached).

When you've got to the top of a climb on an ebike do you take a long drag on an e-cig.

No way am I riding one. Aid climbing for bikes.

but I am concerned about the potential long term impact they could have on our access rights

The reality is we have no access rights - or at least not for anything I want to ride - since there are no access rights to adhere to it will have no impact.

Also.... e-bikes are for the elderly, disabled and lazy

I'm not sure that's right ton. I reckon that loads of people, particularly those new to the sport and wanting to do for example a trail centre day but without the fitness to do that comfortably would be keen to have one. Particularly as they inevitably come down in price and weight and increase power/duration

Power delivery is pretty linear and you do have to pedal it to get the drive, couldn't get it to spin (bosch motor in turbo mode)
Got power output 'measured' at 500 odd watts in a couple of bits of trail when really standing on the pedals, used on my commute to work in wales (offroad & cycle path) my cx bike was quicker due to higher top speed as the motor cutting out at the limiter.
They're crap to ride with no assist too.

people do seem to fixate on the 250W bit, that's spec max output, you won't get the full 250W, nor would you get that for very long if you tried.

I don't have figures to hand of how much actual assisting they do in Watts at any given speed and for how long etc. (I'm researching now but I'm pretty sure it's quite linear, so more human input = more assisted output until cutout), but being that your normal fit human can do between 100-200W as a sustainable output for an hour or so, more at a peak, and much more for top athletes, add that to the fact you'll only be getting a fraction of the motor output at any given time then what they are effectively able to do is turn unfit people into fit people, and moderately fit people into top athletes (and in some cases more than that).

This is also why they are so useful for injury recovery and helping the less able get access to an activity that would otherwise not be available to them, most users of this type will be doing no more damage and putting out no more overall power than your average [b]fit [/b]MTBer, the assist is still proportional so their lighter pedalling = your normal/hard pedalling.

This kind of reduces the arguments about them being motorised vehicles and tearing up the trails as for the most part* the kind of people that are going to use them are only going to be equivalent to a proper fittie.

Access issues and arguments from ramblers and the like are a genuine concern, and will probably have to be dealt with at some point, but as is evident in this thread and the many others popping up now is that there is a still a lot of misunderstanding about them and exactly what they are, as they become more widespread then this will likely change a bit. I look forward to the day that the Ramblers start calling for bionic assisted legs to be banned from their footpaths 😉

*And I think it's a fair assumption that most very fit people and top athletes won't be using them as it's kinda not in keeping with how they got to be so fit!

I cant see the price dropping on them.
new lighter battery technology will always cost a load. just look at good lighting systems.
people will not pay for them. most new to a sport folk want a cheap bike. 2k plus price will always scare most folk off.

The limited ones won't be much of an issue with the speed limiter, you really will only be able to climb faster but not that much quicker, so it'll be down to the rider (as with normal bikes) as to how they behave in ramblers,horseriders, trailusers presence TBH.
They are pedal assist bikes, not motorbikes as I'm sure has been covered earlier in the thread & article.

I cant see the price dropping on them.

It will. Lights used to cost silly money, you can get them for a few quid now.

Add in that they then allow a heavy (read cheap) bike to be fast and they will be very attractive.

I propose a simple law. Anyone riding an e-bike without a medical reason should be required to wear one of these:

[img] [/img]

with the words LAZY ****ER in big pink letters on the back

Don't fancy having one burst in flames while charging like some of the cheap lights have been know too though 😉 Would probably leave a fair sized crater.
EDIT: do those macks come in pink? 😆

one thing I know for certain, when you run out of charge mid ride, they are a complete bastard of a lump to get back to the start point of the ride.

tho you could always buy a 2nd battery (£600 for a bosch) to carry round as a back up, like I did.

I can buy into that with caveat as long those medically or injury afflicted are exempt.

nemesis, pleas name me some good lights, that cost only a few quid?

Seriously anyone who hasn't ridden one should get a test ride to get their heads round how they actually work & their limitations.

They're fun as in novelty value...the reality is that they're a 50lb MTB.

People on here regularly fret about whether their bike is a couple of pounds over or under 30lb...people on here regularly talk about how the Fox-34 is crap for a long travel MTB these days.

The one i rode was a Haibike with a Fox-34...on a 50lb machine.

...i wont go into detail but the anaolgy of being pushed from behind works, thats a pretty good description.

Dynamically the bike is crap....once the novelty of 'ooh look how easy that climb was' wears off you're left with a 50lb MTB with a crap fork on the front....and one that is at the limits of what the brakes can handle to boot. 😯

I can see a place for them re. rehabilitation of the injured or unwell but for those who actually enjoy mountain biking they're simply not good enough bikes to enjoy riding all the time.

With regard to the NIMBY's....they will focus one the fact it has a 250w motor...that can be deristricted.
They wont care about the semantics of 'pedal-assist'....to the anti-brigade this is now a motorised MTB regardless of how that motor is used, the fact it doesnt directly drive the rear wheel will be glossed over....and as for racing against non E-bikes, dont make me laugh....that is simply not fair, human power vs human power + 250w...nope, they should have a seperate class cheers.

well put deviant.

Well, ok, I'll call 'a few quid' about £25 for an MJ808 (though I have seen those at £15 occasionally).

The point stands though, things will inevitably head down the direction of lighter/cheaper/more duration. Exactly how long that takes to get to a certain point will be subject to debate but it will happen.

Wouldn't be able to keep up with the team guys other than uphill on the ebike, regarding the forks see my earlier posts, set of 36s would have made it more manageable.
Brakes weren't an issue, more the level of grip from the tyres and the 'push' you mentioned on the front, soft rears got shredded fair quickly too due to power being put out on rocky surfaces round south wales.
Media wise, yes I agree with your point, however on the trails I doubt many people would notice what type of bike it is though.

and as for racing against non E-bikes, dont make me laugh....that is simply not fair, human power vs human power + 250w...nope, they should have a seperate class cheers

Yeah, I don't think anyone is suggesting they would be allowed in the same class are they? Just one of those hyperbolic statements thrown out there to divert attention form other poorly argued points.

With regard to the NIMBY's....they will focus one the fact it has a 250w motor...that can be deristricted.
They wont care about the semantics of 'pedal-assist'

you're right of course, but that stems from misunderstanding and misinformation (deliberate or otherwise), [b]if[/b] you can get to the point where people understand how they do work then anyone arguing that point will be rightly shot down as misinformed, and the illegality of using unrestricted bikes should be dealt with as that, illegal use by the minority, and not a reason to persecute the law abiding.

Or, take the other tack and fight back by complaining how they are trying to persecute and restrict the use of valid, safe and non-damaging ways for injured, disabled and less able people enjoying the same activities, it becomes much harder to argue for a banning when you portray it in that light, as the nasty redsocks persecuting the disabled 😈

As with all things like this it's all about the spin you put on it, but right now, while they are in their infancy is the time to dispel myth and misunderstanding.