It depends on your level of chronic fatigue/whatever illness, but I don't think if you do have a disability and buy an e-bike you will be tearing up Jacob's Ladder, e-bike or otherwise.
My experience of an e-bike up a steep but smooth hill (I suspect if you had an illness you'd still be going for the easiest way up) was that it let you maintain a normal speed with minimum effort. If you hammer it you will be able to go up to the speed limiter, but someone with a problem won't be doing that.
I still think the biggest factor in the e-bike debate is the idiot on top. If you are an idiot, you will be an idiot on an e-bike, as you would be on a normal bike. Fortunately idiots on bikes are in a minority. Most people are not idiots and will not be tearing up trails at the limit of the electric assist.
Daveyboywonder- the main market, which appears to be on the Continent, is for people having really big days out. Bigger than they would otherwise have, because now they have an e-bike.
How will they get us banned though?
Mainly by lobbying Landowners to forbid bikes from their land (i,e, Hurtwood, Woburn Sands) by encouraging councils to forbid bikes from parks (i.e. Stanmer Park) and by discouraging any further access when it is proposed.
Most of us use the Bridleway network but generally this isn't where the fun is and have sections or areas of trail we use that only exist due to the goodwill, tolerance or apathy of the landowner be it the NT, Council or private individuals. It's these bits that will suffer if the NIMBY's manage to use E-bikes to lever open the debate about local two-wheeled access.
These people are admittedly few in number but they tend to have an axe to grind, plenty of time on their hands and the editor of the local rag on speed dial.
Can they get MTB'ing forbidden outright? Highly unlikely, but if given the opportunity they can certainly make life a lot less fun and in areas where MTB'ing access is dependent on local goodwill they'll be a significant factor for the 'arguments against.'
eBikes are not going to affect roadies and their KOM's simply due to the fact that they offer no assistance above 15mph, which is pretty slow for a high achieving Strava roadie.
Well it'd get you this KOM:
http://www.strava.com/activities/162566215/segments/3773008169
Is anyone on this thread involved with the promotion, sales or business of ebikes? Just so we know like
Not me!
I'm curious.. Who are these disabled people who will be 'allowed' to benefit from an ebike?
People with, in no particular order:
heart conditions
breathing difficulties (asthma/reduced lung capacity/other)
debilitating muscle disorders
damaged/malformed/incomplete limbs
fatigue related conditions that limit output
other things!
Not to mention those recovering from injuries (internal and external) to rebuild strength and fitness but outside and not indoors!
The beauty of them is that they offer access to the terrains and distance/duration of ride that otherwise may be beyond normal ability, yes you still need to have a certain amount of physical ability but the benefits and extension capabilities are very real.
What are these e-bikes with 6" travel and disc brakes for then?
I suspect they are good for hammering downhill in alpine areas where riding to the top would otherwise be exhausting.
I don't think the arguments about eBikes helping to get normal bikes banned holds up, if it ever came down to such a decision then it would be very easy to have a clear demarcation point and only ban bikes with some kind of motor assist, and even that would be a hard sell when presented with the facts.
Even in very contentious and controversial areas such bans have to be supported by fact, case study, and law. They might try to use it as leverage but it is easily countered when actually required and the all-ability access side of it is also a very strong ball in 'our' court.
Private land of course is another matter, and hence why it's important to make sure the myth and misinformation doesn't propagate, and as evidenced in this thread 'we' are not helping ourselves by helping to spread it within in our community!
Can they get MTB'ing forbidden outright? Highly unlikely, but if given the opportunity they can certainly make life a lot less fun and in areas where MTB'ing access is dependent on local goodwill they'll be a significant factor for the 'arguments against.'
Innit.
The idea of city boys tearing up the trails in the Surrey Hills on de-restricted e-bikes may turn out to be wide of mark, but the anti-bike militants are hardly going to trouble themselves to look into the nitty gritty of how they work.
It's bikes with motors and big ****-off tyres and that's all they'll be interested in knowing.
I suspect they are good for hammering downhill in alpine areas where riding to the top would otherwise be exhausting.
Except they're not that much fun downhill compared to a normal trail bike IMO
Innit.The idea of city boys tearing up the trails in the Surrey Hills on de-restricted e-bikes may turn out to be wide of mark, but the anti-bike militants are hardly going to trouble themselves to look into the nitty gritty of how they work.
It's bikes with motors and big ****-off tyres and that's all they'll be interested in knowing.
With a full charge on turbo mode, the bosch motored bike had enough charge for 3 BPW offroad climbs, if derestricted it'd be about half that. So 3 climbs to the top of Barry know best approx I'd guess and slower down it than a 9 grand carbon ego chariot 😉 Less if you go to the cake shop en route
Firstly, I haven't ridden an ebike. I can see that they could be fun though.
Having said that, my concern is over access as others have already mentioned. I understand but don't buy the argument about it being pedal assist rather than motorised. The pedal assist bit and the cutout at >15mph can both be over ridden with a bit of tinkering as far as I can see.
Fundamentally, if it has a motor it is motorised.
can both be over ridden with a bit of tinkering as far as I can see
and the bike then becomes illegal to use in that manner.
This is a problem, and it will need to be dealt with somehow*, but basing decisions and opinions on potential illegal misuse is a bit wide of the mark.
[b]if [/b]people do illegal things then you deal with that accordingly, not the legal use.
*no idea how really other than going after the source of such mods, not even sure what the penalty would be for someone using a de-resticted bike if caught and actually taken through proper process? anyone know?
Hatter I do see how that situation could start to develop but with all the positives of cycling in parks and permissable private land I just don't believe that a couple of idiots on e-mtbs will get us all banned - there's many more idiots on normal mtbs that haven't got us banned in the last decade or more. Look at all the issues at Woburn or Surrey hills with trail digging, horse-scaring stories etc, some idiocy, mainly just a bit of trail-cheekiness and all the grey inbetween, still no ban. Not that there won't be but imo it's unlikely to be due to the existence of e-bikes. They just don't add any more risk or percieved danger than current bikes or trails built that pop out blindly onto bridleways or FPs, etc.
The older/weaker riders enjoying some pedal-assisted fresh air are a harder lot to demonise too, it's a PR-lose battle to get MTB access removed due to e-bikes generally. There's some chat among green-laners about buying E-MTBs in response to the lack of motorbike access but I suspect that's a blip in sales compared to the number of riders out most weekends.
I'd imagine not, any bikepacker knows that a big descent on a 45-50lb bike needs a very different approach - smoothly does it, slower into corners, far fewer risks .. but all that momentum has a fun side at times.Except they're not that much fun downhill compared to a normal trail bike IMO
Yep, it was different, like riding a badly setup & suspended DH bike from about 1995 😉
Let's be honest, who here wouldn't like to try an e-bike with a 2.5kW motor?
I'm curious.. Who are these disabled people who will be 'allowed' to benefit from an ebike?
People with, in no particular order:heart conditions
breathing difficulties (asthma/reduced lung capacity/other)
debilitating muscle disorders
damaged/malformed/incomplete limbs
fatigue related conditions that limit output
other things!Not to mention those recovering from injuries (internal and external) to rebuild strength and fitness but outside and not indoors!
The beauty of them is that they offer access to the terrains and distance/duration of ride that otherwise may be beyond normal ability, yes you still need to have a certain amount of physical ability but the benefits and extension capabilities are very real.
Yep, exactly. There are many scenarios where an e-bike can help.
(I have ridden a couple of different e-bikes, hybrids not mountain bikes, belonging to family members. I don't need one myself and am not involved in selling/promotion/whatnot.)
Look at all the issues at Woburn or Surrey hills with trail digging, horse-scaring stories etc, some idiocy, mainly just a bit of trail-cheekiness and all the grey inbetween, still no ban
Not yet, but it's come pretty damn close a few times and the "MTB's are the thin end of the wedge for motorbikes" argument is one I've heard time and time again, even when I was sitting in Village Hall meetings about whether or not to ban riding at Woburn Sands well over a decade ago, long before the existence of E-bikes.
Whilst MTBs will generally be grudgingly tolerated motorbikes are generally seen as beyond the pale, putting clear blue water between "nice quiet, safe" MTB's and "nasty noisy, damaging" motorbikes was often key to winning the argument and the fact that in the public consciousness E-bikes blur the lines between the two is what makes them potentially problematic.
Some general legislation clarifying the access status of E-bikes distinct from MTB's would be a start but I can't see it being given the parliamentary time of day.
I sincerely hope that E-bikes will find their niche in helping more people to enjoy the British countryside and that any debate that greets their arrival with be rational, calm and well-informed.
However, from my experience of the Anti-MTB lobby I sincerely doubt that calm rationality will be the foremost feature of the 'letters to the editor' that the arrival of e-bikes will trigger so those who live and ride in sensitive areas should be prepared to stand up and be counted should a local kerfuffle arise because if it does these are the arguments that will be thown at them.
Haibikes with Bosch motors are all about that, uphill and along flat to get going to 15mph handy, downhill power assist only good out of corners & a pain when putting an additional pedal stroke in as can get a slightly delayed surge of power which made me overshoot a corner or 2 downhill on steep techy stuff
maybe a gradient sensor would be handy to switch off power assist on downhills?
Agree about the DH bit though, you want a bike to be agile with low inertia and a heavy motor and battery is just going to ruin that.
As for users - pretty sure a few injured soldiers would quite like to get back out on the trails but in some cases they just cannot get the power down on hills.
The amount of assistance could probably be controlled to even out an advantage to enable people to compete against fully able bodied people and the only way the technology is going to advance and come down in price is if they sell in decent numbers.
Yes. I see the list of disabilities and I'll say that an eBike is really NOT the best solution for these people. An ebike only really suits able bodied riders in general. I'm sure there are some small groups of disabled people who would find an eBike is a great enabler for them (point above about injured soldiers for example) but in this thread alone the argument that eBikes are only for the elderly or disabled gives the impression that they are some kind of magic accessibility ticket to mountain biking. Apart from the elderly argument i'd say eBikes are really NOT a solution for the disabled population at large.
You ride an eBike like you ride an ordinary bike. You push the pedals to make it go. It's doesn't go all on it's own. The pedals are not some kind of switch and so long as you turn them the motor does the rest. No. You have to pedal hard enough to propel the bike. The motor then helps propel the bike a bit faster than you would ordinarily travel without it. In effect it's a range extender in that you will be able to ride further. If you ride it like I did this morning then you can ride uphill at 15mph, which on many off-road climbs will bag you some KOMs, but you will be out of breath at the top of the climb because you still have to work.
As soon as you ride one you will realise what this means. I've said it earlier, an ebike makes a climb less steep, but it's still steep. The higher power setting you use the less steep the climb feels.. But it never stops feeling like a climb. If you can't ride up a climb to start with then an eBike won't help you no matter what power setting you use.
As far as Strava is concerned, they seem to think that being [url= https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/20942097-The-Activity-Flag-Remove-an-Activity-s-segment-results-from-the-Leaderboard ]'clearly motor-assisted'[/url] is a valid reason to flag the ride - if anyone is that bothered.
So it sounds like e-bikes can get you up hills quicker, you still have to pedal though and are quite possibly crap on the downs.
Sounds mint. Where do I sign up... (to a regular ride to build up my fitness and a few skills days for a fraction of the price of a 50lb battery operated bike).
Has anyone flagged mark's ride yet BTW?
If you can't ride up a climb to start with then an eBike won't help you no matter what power setting you use.
i disagree with this.
on a weeks offroad touring, i managed to ride up a hill i have never been able to ride up. and i beat a bloke up it who would normally leave me for dead.
the hill in question is from kidstones gate above buckden, up to stake moss. it is a steep babies head covered climb. some may know it.
Have ridden one
It was hugely fun for about 10 mins then it was just a slightly assisted very heavy bike. Good for hills, pretty much neutral everywhere else. As it happens after I spent a day riding around Daventry on a Haibike, that weekend I met a couple of blokes trying them out at Cannock. they were ripping up the climbs, and were pretty much just the same on the descents, the massive difference was that they did the 2 loops twice without stopping at the top of the climbs or getting tired...at all. As others have said, just extended the range significantly.
I think they're great things, expands choice massively, encourages folk onto bikes, as a commuter I can see the benefits instantly.
One who CGAF who uses strava whilst riding one here.
If people are anti-bike then any 'reason' will be enough for a moan, there's no need for any logic or prior examples in it. I just doubt the anti's arguments related to electric bikes that already have access rights will have any weight or threat, that's the only point I'm getting at."MTB's are the thin end of the wedge for motorbikes"
Some general legislation clarifying the access status of E-bikes distinct from MTB's would be a start
[url= https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules ]Pretty clear here I think,[/url] - pedalecs are bikes. Power-on-demand, twist n go etc is an electric motorbike of sorts needing registration, a license and helmet. ie all the stuff that bikes that can go on the usual ROWs don't need.
Thing is, the technology has only just evolved to the point where they're worthwhile. Where will they be in five or ten years?
I think that the idea of a touring type bike (not mountain bike) is a really good development.
Exploring a European city on e bike, bit of cycling / bit of electric scooter seems like a good idea.
Watching people be winched up a mountain under electric power to bomb down does irite me.
So use has a lot to do with this For me
If anyone is interested check out this innovation and its' implications.
http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.html
There is an article in the latest German Alpine Club magazine where a couple of pensioners use bikes fitted with these drives riding N-S across the Alps in a week.
CowmanWatching people be winched up a mountain under electric power to bomb down does irite me
I do ^^^this every summer. It's just the lecy bit is powering a chairlift or Funicular rather than my bike 😉
I can already imagine the Daily Mail headlines the first time a walker gets hit by an Ebike, regardless of the circumstance or actual person at fault............
not going to quote what you said as too much text, but I think you might be looking at it from a too 'proper MTB' viewpoint maybe? Nobody who cannot ride a bike is going to try and jump on one and go shredding the trails, but eBikes in general are a massive enabler for people with underlying health conditions to keep them (and in some cases get them) rolling on two wheels.
Think more, towpath pootling and gentle fireroads, people that can manage low output only or fatigue easily, or have reduced strength in one leg, eBikes are massive help here to enable people to go on longer rides than they would otherwise be able to, or to tackle what normal people would call a gentle climb on a green graded trail, but to them is too much to, or hard work enough normally to tire them out too quickly.
The charity I'm currently working with are setting up another Wheels for All centre here and one of the things that will play a part is eBikes for those that can manage to ride a normal bike but with reduced capacity, for others it's tricycles, side cars, hand bikes etc.
You're absolutely right it's not a golden ticket for the disabled in general, but eBikes do have their place with and will help, and even if not eBikes directly the technology will trickle into trikes and handbikes as well.
Yup. They are not a golden ticket but have their place.
I was making a point against the rather dismissive blanket statement that was proliferating here and on Facebook that 'Ebikes are for the old or disabled'. A statement, in my view, born from an ignorant understanding of how they actually work. Mind you that statement isn't half as ignorant as the 'they are just motorbikes' typical statement commonly traced back to the keyboards of those who have never swung a leg over one 🙂
gotcha 😉
I know, I do wish more people (especially the naysayers) would have a go on one before making statements and judging them, by all means have an opinion, but make it an informed one!
15mph kind of limits their use to off road or really hilly rides. I can see there uses though and the technology will only improve
15mph kind of limits their use to off road or really hilly rides. I can see there uses though and the technology will only improve
Yeah but your reseller will usually offer 'tuning' to illegally uprate the system by removing the limit, my local ebike shop advertises 'modding' in the window. A quick google reveals Marks haibike could easily be altered to higher limits at the expense of battery life. Both the chaps at my work with e-bikes have had them altered so they are technically road-illegal.
[i]15mph kind of limits their use to off road or really hilly rides.[/i]
I'd say they'd be brilliant for a lot of people around town where there's a lot of stop/start and it's often the effort of repeatedly getting a loaded bike up to speed that people struggle with/end up feeling sweaty.
Non-enthusiast cyclists who want to travel faster than 15mph probably buy a scooter.
[b]I'd say they'd be brilliant[/b] for a lot of people around town [b]where there's a lot of stop/start[/b] and it's often the effort of repeatedly getting a loaded bike up to speed that people struggle with.
I haven't done more than car-park tests with an e-bike, but I have ridden with someone who was on one. On twisty, fairly flat trails the advantage is considerable - it's clearly a LOT easier to repeatedly accelerate out of corners.
You don't have to have ridden one to be opposed to sharing trails bikes with motors on (and regardless of how the power is delivered, is exactly what they are). I don't for a second doubt that they are great for making climbs easier. If they are not for the physically impaired, are we be advocating that fit, able bodied people go out and buy them just to make it all a bit easier?
Playing devils advocate a bit here, I don't particularly care and I won't unless access is questioned due to their use.
But is the the act of having a motor on that really makes it a different with regards to sharing? What if, other than by looking at the bike, you can't actually tell that they're electric assisted when riding with someone on one?
By my reckoning most riders who'll ride them will still be considerably slower than the many fit and fast riders around so should they be banned too (for crimes against lycra, maybe but... 😉 )?
But is the the act of having a motor on that really makes it a different with regards to sharing?
Yes, in a nut shell.
But is the the act of having a motor on that really makes it a different with regards to sharing?
Only if it affects access IMHO. Cripes, I get overtaken by enough people uphill as it is. A few more won't make any difference 🙂
I'd probably piss myself laughing if/when an old biffer drops me for dead on a 50lb bike!
My point is that you don't have to have ridden one to have an opinion on them.
But you do need to understand how they work and there's a great dealing myth and misunderstanding surrounding them. Which is one of the reasons we have two of them here at ST right now.
I can understand that, as a business, it makes sense for Singletrack to include eBikes in the magazine as it's probably going to be an expanding segment.
I've got quite a good grasp of how things work and understand the drive system, there's no myth or misunderstanding about it. I just don't see it as a natural progression of cycling. It's a big departure from something, which until now, has been a human powered activity.
But you do need to understand how they work
Why?
It's a bike with a motor on it. I'm not a rocket scientist but even I can figure out that it makes going uphill a lot easier.
Feels like another industry "push" to me. I don't care if someone rides one, but since the whole wh*****ze (and now hub width) thing, I'm very wary of these "pushes".
There are wider implications, as battery tech improves (think F1 and Apple spending much $'s in battery R&D), ebikes make biking far more accessible for the masses. Less cars on road, more investment in proper bike lanes, and so on. This benefits all riders, e-bike or not. I think the commuter type bikes will see a far wider appeal than the MTB versions initially.
Historically, no doubt this same type of discussion was had about motor cars and computers.
I saw with interest a shop in Guildford dedicated to e-bikes: [url= http://electricbikesguildford.com/ ]http://electricbikesguildford.com/[/url]
I think this has been said by a few, but when I'm back in nappies and getting spoon fed by pretty nurses, I'll be buying one!
